Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 February 20

= February 20 =

Korean vowel sound in 으
How do you pronounce 으 in Korean? What is the International Phonetic Alphabet symbol for that vowel? While I'm at it, is there an algorithm for converting Hangul to IPA? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18A:C500:7170:E8BE:6BF7:E415:30D8 (talk) 10:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * [ɯ], it seems. The close back unrounded vowel. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:10, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * is there an algorithm for converting Hangul to IPA? wikt:Module:ko-pron. To just see the result, open an editing page on English Wiktionary and preview . Nardog (talk) 12:39, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Islam Yes, Partai Islam No
I read in Islam Yes, Islamic Party No that the original Indonesian phrase is Islam Yes, Partai Islam No. However, according to Wiktionary, the Indonesian for yes and no are ya and tidak. Was Nurcholish Madjid mixing Indonesian and English? Languages of Indonesia says that English is quite important in Indonesia. Was he using English to make the point more concise or more modern? Why would he mix the languages? -- Error (talk) 11:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Not sure about this case, but "The use of English in [Indonesian] advertising with bilingual slogans has been recognized to attract the consumers’ attention than comparable ads with a single language".  Alansplodge (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Not sure if it's related but in 1964, Sukarno dropped Italian vivere pericoloso in a speech. Maybe Indonesian public figures like language mixing. --Error (talk) 12:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The names of some Indonesian leaders contain Sanskrit words, as in "Sukarnoputri", where putri is Sanskrit for "daughter". The Malaysian ideological term "Bhumiputra" is also Sanskrit (though the "h" is commonly omitted from the Latin-alphabet spelling there)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:06, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * P.S. Some speakers of Indonesian languages (which often have many levels of honorifics) find it interesting that English has a completely-undifferentiated 2nd. person form "you", so that "you" is occasionally used by some speakers of such languages (but of course "you" is only one of many options in those languages)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I am only aware of this use of "you" in Indonesian (singular). Speakers of regional languages in Indonesia are usually more embedded in their local cultural context which often requires stratified address.
 * Answering the OP: code-mixing with English is trendy. People try to exude an urban/cosmopolitan flair (not only in Indonesia). It is much more common these days than in the times of Cak Nur (= Nurcholish Madjid), although many people still consider it pretentious. Then, it was mostly a thing among intellectuals. –Austronesier (talk) 23:22, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't know the details, but I was under the impression that some local languages in Indonesia have more levels of formality than the standard official Indonesian language, and so probably have more need of a honorific-level short-circuiter of external origin like "you"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

What's the etymological origin of
the ancient Greek name Φλά of Djerba Island mentioned by Herodotus (Histories, iv, sec. 178). HOTmag (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No idea about the etymology, but I think the identification with Djerba is incorrect. Herodotus says that Phla is in Lake Tritonis. --Wrongfilter (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Please notice that our article Lake Tritonis you've mentioned does point out that the lake is "the lake in what today is southeastern Algeria and southern Tunisia... According to Herodotus it contained two islands, Phla... and Mene". Additionally, Djerba is the only island in southern Tunisia. HOTmag (talk) 22:24, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, but Djerba is in the Mediterranean, not in a lake. Herodotus: 178. Next after the Lotophagoi along the sea-coast are the Machlyans, who also make use of the lotos, but less than those above mentioned. These extend to a great river named the river Triton, and this runs out into a great lake called Tritonis, in which there is an island named Phla. So we're travelling from the sea coast up a river into the lake, where we then find the island. Does not sound like Djerba to me, and our article Lake Tritonis also makes no reference to Djerba (the/a Greek name of which was Μῆνιγξ according to our article). --Wrongfilter (talk) 22:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * It is thought to be related or originated in Phoenician, according to Prof. Nahum Slouschz. בנצי (talk) 22:22, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Lake Tritonis is what's left nowadays as Chott el-Djerid, in central-western Tunisia. The focus is on Djerba, namely the relation of the ancient greek name of the island, to the name given to it by the Phoenician settlers themselves, who preceded the Greeks. בנצי (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Right. HOTmag (talk) 11:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)