Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 January 15

= January 15 =

"it's the colour of [?] and it tastes like [?], too" ...
What does Quentin Crisp say here at the 3:45-3:55 mark about the "whitish powder" he lives on? (I'm not a native speaker, so forgive me if this is a stupid question). --2003:D4:670F:FD00:3D04:B0B0:DA40:C466 (talk) 14:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * He's saying "Walpamur", which was a brand of paint. See Crown Paints. --Viennese Waltz 16:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! A good start to a perfect finish!--2003:D4:670F:FD00:3D04:B0B0:DA40:C466 (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Why do some male names have ibn (son of) some have bin in the same language?
Why no vowel between b and n in ibn? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * See Patronymic, and Arabic alphabet. DuncanHill (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * "Ibn" is the classical form, while "bin" is more colloquial. As part of a surname, "bin" is not really restricted to males, though in a genealogical description ("X ibn Y ibn Z", where X, Y, and Z are three generations of individuals) it is... AnonMoos (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * In my understanding, ibn is Classical Arabic, bin is Saudi Arabic and ben is Maghrebi Arabic. Osama bin Laden explains how it can get more complicated when Persian is also introduced in the mix. Even more complicated, French transliterations can be applied to North African names and English ones to Middle Eastern names. --Error (talk) 11:51, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Bin' and 'ben' are exactly the same, in Arabic. The difference is that depending on whether an area had more French or English influence, transliterations to Latin scripts, like with Ahmad/Ahmed, Muhammad/Mohamed, etc.. 'Ibn' is more stricly the word for 'son' in classical Arabic, but 'bin' can also be used in genealogical description in classical Arabic as well. --Soman (talk) 14:14, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The there are cases like King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia, which seems to mean "Son of Saud" rather than a given name as such. Except, his father's name was Abdul Rahman bin Faisal. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  17:43, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * "L'État, c'est moi", anyone? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Faith and begorrah, he's a son of the old Saud. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The name Ibn Saud is only used in Western texts. In Arabic texts his name is, transcribed without diacritics, Abdulaziz bin Abdurrahman bin Faisal Al Saud, or for short Abdulaziz Al-Saud. (Spacing and vowels may vary between transcribers.) --Lambiam 21:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Given that bin rather than ibn is in his Arabic name, how did the West come up with "ibn Saud"? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * A more literal transcription is ‘bd āl‘zyz bn ‘bd ālrḥmn bn fyṣl āl s‘wd. You have to add the vowels, so, strictly speaking, bin is not "in" the Arabic name, but only in some particular transcribed representations, depending on how one assumes this is pronounced. The first word of the term Ibn Saud (originally not a personal name but a title also borne by the King's father) being phrase-initial, the transcription Ibn is definitely more appropriate (see the contributions below), and if it is written in Arabic with an ʾalif, it is the only possible one (see Wiktionary's entries for ابن with an ʾalif and بن without an ʾalif). --Lambiam 13:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * JackofOz-- The difference is one of Linguistic register and/or Diglossic variation... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * No, it's not a case of literary/colloquial difference: it's ibn phrase-initially, or bin after a word ending in a vowel. See Hamza for more details. --2.53.29.193 (talk) 13:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


 * When i'rab vowels are pronounced, then the word appears as "ibn-" + case vowel (-u if nominative case, -a if accusative case etc) at the beginning of a sentence, or if the previous word ends with a consonant, while it appears as "bn-" + case vowel if the previous word ends with a vowel. "Bin" basically appears when i'rab vowels are NOT pronounced, which demotes it to a lower level of classicality than "ibn". AnonMoos (talk) 01:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)