Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 June 15

= June 15 =

Becoming
This sentence caught my eye in a Today report:

He spoke with Jenna as Rishi Sunak became Britain's third prime minister in seven weeks on Oct. 25 amid a cycle of political and economic chaos in the United Kingdom.

Isn't the syntax wrong? I would have thought it meant that three people entered the office of Prime Minister in the space of 49 days. 89.243.8.4 (talk) 16:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems clear to me. The three people are Johnson, Truss and Sunak. Because of Truss's short occupancy of the role there's a seven week span which has three different prime ministers. It does not mean all three started in the job during that seven weeks, just that they occupied the role. Only Sunak is mentioned as entering, i.e. becoming, PM. 92.41.105.60 (talk) 16:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with 92: it's normal. It doesn't say he was the third to become PM in seven weeks (which would have meant what you said) but that he became the third PM in seven weeks. ColinFine (talk) 16:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * See also Year of three prime ministers. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Also Year of four popes and Year of the Five Emperors. --142.112.221.43 (talk) 17:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It happens often enough in Vaticanology that year of three popes is a name given to it. It only takes one pope entering and leaving the post in the same year. Year of 4 popes on the other hand seems to have only happened once. 2601:644:8500:C9F0:0:0:0:38B4 (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Then there were the years 1409-1415, when there were three popes at the same time. ColinFine (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Possessive form of "mathematics"
Is it "mathematics' " or "mathematics's"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.242.92.97 (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Nouns plural in form, singular in meaning, add only an apostrophe: [e.g.] mathematics' rules... Alansplodge (talk) 17:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * That's just one style guide. It also says that "Singular proper nouns ending in s, add only an apostrophe", whereas both the plain apostrophe and the apostrophe-s are accepted (James'  or James's).  And for "singular common nouns ending in s" it says that the choice depends on the following word, a guideline I've never even heard of before.  In this case, I suggest the best choice is to just write "math's"! (At least unless you're British and spell the base form "maths"...) --142.112.221.43 (talk) 17:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, which English are you writing in? For example if Canadian English, Canadian Press (can't provide link, is subscription site, but you can look up the book equivalent The Canadian Press Stylebook) says the following:
 * 2. Plural nouns ending in s take an apostrophe alone. teachers’ apples, the two peoples’ history, the Joneses’ daughter
 * 3. Singular nouns and names ending in s (or an s sound) normally take an ’s. Chris’s sandwich, the witness’s testimony
 * 9. In general, inanimate objects take an of phrase rather than an apostrophe. the colour of the coat, not the coat’s colour, the incidence of flu, not the flu’s incidence 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Mathematics's sounds wonky. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Imagine trying to say "maths's". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:56, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Or praising "Phillip Griffiths's maths's worthiness". Card Zero  (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you ALL got some sort of speech impediment? None of those are difficult.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No worse than Daffy Duck. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Shome shpeak impeccable... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Stress of words ending in -ative
Do many people give nonstandard stress to many words ending in -ative?? (I can find only one Wiktionary entry, demonstrative, that reveals a word where this is true.) Georgia guy (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * What would be the standard stress? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * We say dem'onstrate but de.mon'strative. I haven't heard dem'onstrative. Doug butler (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So would stressing the DEM part of "demonstrative" theoretically be "standard"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * JFYI, IPA stress marks are placed before the stressed syllable. Nardog (talk) 05:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks (sheepish grin) shoulda stuck to caps. Doug butler (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have never heard demon'strative. Never. Mind you, I have heard adver'tisement, but generally only from left-pondians. ColinFine (talk) 15:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Derogative is similar (contrasted with derogate). Wiktionary doesn't give a pronunciation. Webster's in 1913, second link here, puts the stress on the rog. The Free Dictionary has a robotic voice which puts the stress everywhere else instead, contradicting the Collaborative International Dictionary of English pronunciation guide on the same page (which is itself derived from Webster's 1913). Card Zero  (talk) 09:01, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have heard wikt:decorative pronounced with the stress in different places and with different numbers of syllables by American English speakers. --Amble (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC)