Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 March 15

= March 15 =

Catalan: History of pronunciation
How was an intervocalic "s" (e.g. in "casa") pronounced in Catalan, around 1500? Was it pronounced Like in Spanish (e.g. casa=[casa]), or like in Modern Catalan (e.g. casa=[caza])? 147.235.211.112 (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * From Phonological history of Catalan:
 * Intervocalic sounds were often voiced (circa fifth century AD).
 * [...]
 * Voiced sibilants remain as such, whereas in Spanish they merge into voiceless sibilants.
 * From Gran Enclopèdia Catalana:
 * Interiors simples
 * El principi general és que les sordes esdevenen sonores (sapere > ‘saber’, vita > ‘vida’, securu > ‘segur’; raphanu > ‘rave’) i que les sonores es mantenen (caballu > ‘cavall’, levare > ‘llevar’, rigat > ‘rega’) o desapareixen (volebat > ‘volia’, sudore > ‘suor’, pavore > ' paor’, ‘por’). Després de l’accent hi ha més casos de conservació: alauda > ‘alosa’ (enfront de laudare > ‘lloar’); o bé totes dues solucions coincideixen: resina > ‘resina’ i ‘reïna’, *incisamen > ‘enciam’ i el valencià ‘encisam’. Nasals i líquides es conserven: poma > ‘poma’, panaria > ‘panera’, *volere > ‘voler’, corona > ‘corona’.
 * --Error (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "Intervocalic sounds" in Latin, e.g. sapere, vita, securu, "were often voiced" in Catalan "(circa fifth century AD)", e.g. in the Catalan words: saber, vida, segur. Yet, it says nothing about Catalan words spelled (in Modern Caralan) with intervocalic "s": Was that Catalan letter "s" pronounced [s] or [z], around 1500 ?
 * "Voiced sibilants" in latin, "remain as such" in Catalan. Yet, it says nothing about Catalan words spelled (in Modern Caralan) with intervocalic "s".
 * Nor does the last paragraph say anything about it.
 * 147.235.211.112 (talk) 08:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The passage is about sounds, not about spelling. Taken at face value, it also applies to the intervocalic  in Latin casa. The problem is with the adverb often. It appears nevertheless extremely likely (to me) that the voicing transition from Latin  to present-day Catalan, also seen in other words derived from Latin words with intervocalic -s- (acusar, base, cosa, ...), was an instance of the same process but not reflected in the orthography, as it was also not in the spelling of French accuser, Italian accusare, etc.  --Lambiam 11:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you sure the French "accuser" (or the Italian "accusare" or the English "accuse") has always been pronounced with [z] rather than with [s]? Actually, this is exactly what I've been asking about Catalan. 147.235.211.112 (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the sound change in French and Italian was not reflected in the spelling. I am not entirely when the sound change happened, which I why I used "extremely likely". The fact that the same sound change is seen in the Gallo-Romance languages and the geographically adjacent Italo-Romance languages suggests though it already occurred in a common precursor in what must have been a Romance dialect continuum. --Lambiam 17:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * According to our Italian phonology article: "when between two vowels within the same word, it tends to always be pronounced [z] in Northern Italy, and [s] in Central and Southern Italy (except in the Arbëreshë community). A notable example is the word casa ('house'): in Northern Italy it is pronounced [ˈkaːza]; in Southern-Central Italy it's pronounced [ˈkaːsa]." -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)