Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 November 23

= November 23 =

"I thought he is there". Is it a non-native speech?
Indeed, the standard way is to say "I thought he was there", but what if one says "is" instead of "was", is it regarded as a non-native speech, just as the expression "You was" is regarded as non-native? 147.235.216.121 (talk) 19:23, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Isn't it perfectly normal (if not strictly grammatical) native English (on both sides of the Atlantic) to say things like "I thought he [or He] is still with us" [more likely referring to an eternal deity] or "I used to believe that gremlins are real"? Not that there's anything wrong with "I thought he was still with us" [more likely referring to a mortal] or "I used to think that gremlins were real" — although the shades of meaning might differ. —— Shakescene (talk) 19:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It sounds like a Yogi Berra-ism. Like once when he said he didn't go to someone's wake, because "I'd rather remember him the way he is." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As Shakescene indicates, it depends on the context. When the condition still holds (and it is relevant that it still holds), native speakers use the present or the past there. But the default is to use the past, and we wouldn't use the present if the condition no longer holds, or it is not relevant to the conversation that it still holds.
 * On the other hand, "you was" is not necessarily "non-native", as it occurs in a number of English dialects (i.e. native speakers). ColinFine (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, you was, as you wishes. I hope you doesn't kidding, does you... 2A06:C701:426B:E600:14B0:C4FE:9E24:1B6F (talk) 06:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What doesn't kid you, makes you stronger. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Relevant article is Sequence of tenses. As the article points out, there's some degree of debate here, but if you're asking in an ESL context, I think the "attracted sequence" rule given in that article is the best bet - always use the past tense, unless it's a statement of general truth. I think the general truths exception is the reason why "I thought he is still with us" sounded much more right to User:Shakescene when referring to a god. It would indeed make me think "non-native speaker" if I saw it in any non-general-truth context. So "I thought he is still there" really can't ever sound native because it's not gonna be a general truth in just about any plausible context. (Also, even with general truths, the past tense still sounds just as native, so even just exclusively using the past tense is fine.) -Elmer Clark (talk) 23:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thankxs for your full answer, as well as for the previous ones. 147.235.216.121 (talk) 07:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"travel" with a single l, vs. "travelling" with a double l, in British English.
Besides "travel" vs. "travelling" (in British English), are there other verbs ending with an unstressed vowel followed by a single consonant, which will be doubled if and only if it's followed by "ing" (or "ed" or "er" and the like)? 147.235.216.121 (talk) 19:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * label (labelling) & model (modelling) spring to mind for starters. Nthep (talk) 19:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I wonder if, the last letter of all verbs of this type, is the same letter. 147.235.216.121 (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "Worshipper" is also British. AnonMoos (talk) 21:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * counselled, councillor, cancellling, ... —— Shakescene (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Cancellling? Damn inflation. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * A one-L lama is a priest
 * A two-L llama is a beast
 * And a three-L lllama is a big fire in Boston.
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * President Kennedy's speeches give a hint of the unbearable Boston accent of the three alarmer. I'm saying "unbearable", even though I'm not a native English speaker, so what would native speakers from the Middle-west (like you) say about it... 147.235.216.121 (talk) 13:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * See also American and British spelling differences involving double consonants. Shantavira|feed me 10:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It might be worth pointing out that this is one of the less marked, less reliable Yank/Brit differences, either spelling being broadly acceptable on either side of the Pond. I  (American) prefer the double-ell spelling in these words, on the grounds that the VCV letter pattern usually makes the first vowel "long" (so "modeled", for example, should be pronounced /mɑdiːld/, mahd-eeled).  --Trovatore (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * OP's comment: "modeled" should have been pronounced /mɑdiːld/ (or rather /mədiːld/), if and only if the second syllable had been stressed, as it is in "compelled". But the stress of "modeled" is on the first syllable, so "modeled" is like "covered", contrary to "compelled" and "referred" whose stress is on their second syllable. To sum up: if you spell "covered", you have no reason to spell "modelled". The British spelling "travelling" and "modelling" (and other verbs indicated in this thread) is unusual and extraordinary. 147.235.216.121 (talk) 21:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Marvel and marvelling. Chisel and chiselling. Bedevil and bedevilling. Cavil and cavilling. Canvas and canvassing (by which I mean, of course, covering with canvas). Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 15:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * wikt:input (inputting). --Amble (talk) 20:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And formatting and trammelling and towelling and bevelling. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Please notice that according to wiktionary, canvassing is the gerund of canvass, whereas the gerund of canvas is canvasing.
 * As for formatting, I think the double t is intended to pronounce the unstressed a like the first unstressed A of "Afghanistan" rather than like the unstressed a of "formating" - being the gerund of "formate" (or like the unstressed a of "sofa"). To sum up, for this first a of formatting and of Afghanistan to be pronounced like the a of "back", this a must be followed by two consecutive consonants. That's why the spelling of "formatting" is not unique to British English. 147.235.209.97 (talk) 08:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Fowler says: "Canvas 'coarse cloth' is spelt with one s, with plural canvases. When used as a verb 'to cover or line with canvas', it is conjugated as canvasses, canvassed, canvassing (but often -s- in American English)." Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 09:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * So what's indicated in Wiktionary has to be fixed somehow. 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 13:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added it to my "to do" list. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And victualling and revictualling, and rivalling, and ravelling, unravelling, and hiccupping and tunnelling and funnelling and pummelling. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Has it occurred to anyone else that this could form the basis of a fine Tom Lehrer pastiche? Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Every single day
Every single day, every single person, etc. Is the (actually redundant) "single" before "every" unique to English? To Modern English? 2A06:C701:426B:E600:14B0:C4FE:9E24:1B6F (talk) 22:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's strictly redundant, as it emphasizes the totality and discreteness of 'every'.
 * Wiktionary gives me the German jeder einzelne, the Finnish joka ikinen, and the Hungarian minden egyes, for seemingly analogous constructions. Remsense  聊  23:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's for emphasis, like instead of saying "every one of them", saying "every last one of them", for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)