Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 October 15

= October 15 =

the shortest English word, hardest to pronounce, for foreigners.
I think it's whirl, in GA accent. That's because many languages (including IndoEuropean ones, like German and Russian), don't have the W sound, nor the rhotic R sound (in GA accent), nor the vowel of this word (now I'm thinking about Spanish Italian and likewise), while the dark L sound in this word does not exist in many languages either. I doubt if anyone can think about another example, but you are invited to suggest one, just to be sure I'm not wrong. 2A06:C701:7455:C600:5169:C2D6:AB07:4DE9 (talk) 15:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Many struggle with "the". --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct, many struggle with "the", but a lot of languages do have this sound, including Arabic, Greek, Spanish, Portugese (in Portugal), Swahili, and many others, so this sound is not that rare in human languages. However, in my opinion, the probability of finding out a language - besides English, having both the vowel of "whirl" - and its three sounds being: W and rhotic R and dark L, is close to zero - if not a zero. 2A06:C701:7455:C600:5169:C2D6:AB07:4DE9 (talk) 16:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would guess "world" would be more difficult than "whirl". Then, as a Swede, I'd place my bets on "through" or "throw", anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but Spanish doesn't have neither the voiced_dental fricative /th/ nor the schwa. The vocalic sound is specially the harder of the two for Spanish speakers to reproduce, I guess. Pallida  Mors  02:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * They might be talking about the z and the soft-c in Castilian Spanish, which are enunciated a lot like a soft "th" in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:09, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I get your point, but this peninsular trait is a good approximation to /th/ in thick, not /&#240;/ in the, as far as I see it. Pallida  Mors  12:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * What sounds are difficult depends on the speaker's first language(s) so there's no objective answer to this question. Nardog (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think there is an objective answer. Please see the last sentence (beginning with "However") in my recent reponse. 2A06:C701:7455:C600:5169:C2D6:AB07:4DE9 (talk) 17:06, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It'd also depend on when a pronunciation is deemed satisfactory. Few learners of English nail the pronunciation of initial /tr, dr/ so try, dry may qualify but they can perfectly get by without nailing it. Nardog (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * rural is notoriously hard to enunciate even for those used to the rhotic r, so I would imagine that many people who don't speak English would have a difficult time with it. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


 * In American English, "whirl" and many other words have a kind of syllabic retroflex "r" approximant, IPA symbol ɚ or ɝ, which is not one of the world's most common sounds. AnonMoos (talk) 20:40, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I haven't yet met a non-Australian who can "correctly" pronounce almost anything in Australian English, so pick whatever word you want. "G'day" might be a good starting point. Americans seem to have particular trouble with the "o" sound in words like "Coke". They can't even recognise it when Australians say it, let alone say it in Australian English, making buying a very common drink quite a challenge for us in that country. Just realised an even shorter one. Australians always pronounce "emu" with a "y" sound after the "m". Many non-Australians insist on pronouncing it as if it's an electronic cow. HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * E-moo as opposed to E-myoo. Well it works for the Liberty Mutual Insurance company, whose ads feature an emu called "LiMu". "Lee-moo E-moo." Wouldn't work so well with "e-myu". In some regional American accents, they pronounce a standalone "u" as if it had a "y" in front of it, like for example pronouncing Duke University as "Dyook" instead of the more usual "Dook". Those folks might tend to say "e-myu". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Baseball_Bugs -- That's the older pronunciation, usually found in the UK. In most American English, there's been a simplification of "yoo" to "oo" after dental consonants (except intervocalically, as in "menu", "tenure" etc). AnonMoos (talk) 04:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm pleased to see that the Emu article only has the pronunciation used by Australians. HiLo48 (talk) 06:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * See Yod-dropping. Alansplodge (talk) 20:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's interesting to learn that our Australian friends have difficulty pronouncing "Coke", the famous nickname of a beverage sold in every country on Earth that does not have an anti-Coca Cola political party in power. On the other hand, Americans cannot ever stop bickering over whether "soft drink" or "pop" or "soda" is the correct generic term. I grew up in Michigan, where "pop" was the universal usage. I have lived in California for many years, where people are utterly bewildered at the usage of "pop" to refer to a refreshing cold bubbly beverage. Californians think of "pop" as a little explosion sound associated with balloons rapidly deflating, or a quick punch as in "I popped him in the nose", or a style of art associated with Andy Warhol and Roy Liechtenstein, or popular culture more broadly, as in "pop star". But never a cold beverage like Coke. Or Pepsi, my mother's favorite. Cullen328 (talk) 07:20, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This American (North Carolinian, in fact, which seems relevant given your example university) says "Dook" and "emyu". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @ User:HiLo48: Americans seem to have particular trouble with the "o" sound in words like "Coke". - My take on that is that more and more Australians have completely lost the ability to say the simple "o" sound. There seems to be this ... thing ... whereby they feel the need to have the lips spread as widely as possible at all times, as if they're always smiling. But that is inimical to making a sound such as "o", which requires the mouth to be open in the vertical, not horizontal, direction. So they come out with stuff that sounds like "fine hime" (phone home), "hellay" (hello), "noy" (no), and, yes, "Kike". To add insult to injury, they try to initiate the "o" or "oo" sounds from as deeply as possible in the throat, particularly after the "r" sound - "through", "grew", "blue", "blow", "crow" etc. have all become auditory nightmares. The already mangled "noy" has now become "naurr". Try as I may, I cannot emulate these sounds that so many of my younger fellow Aussies speak from birth. Therefore, it's no surprise to me that Americans - or anyone else - have tremendous difficulty making them. The whole phenomenon of the Aussie "naurr" has become a comedy meme:, and the subject of serious academic study: , . --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I am pleased that you, as a native Australian, have observed this peculiarity. What you're describing sounds like what they're saying, and I as an American would definitely be hard pressed to actually imitate it. It reminds me a bit of how Jules Hudson, a native English presenter on Escape to the Country, enunciates the long O sound. It sounds kind of like a long A. Like he might say "hame" instead of "home". Not quite the Aussie way of saying the long O. But still an oddity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:51, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

At the very top of this page, it says: "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Please don't. --82.166.199.42 (talk) 07:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

significance of the middle name (or full name?) in child discipline
In this scene, Arthur Read punches his sister out of anger. D.W. turns to Mom. Mom calls him by his full name. Then Arthur mutters, "Uh-oh. Middle name." Just by the story context, I have always known it means something bad. But at the same time, I lack the cultural context as I am kind of a first-generation naturalized American transplant. Yrotarobal (talk) 17:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it the full name that is used in child discipline in various cultures, but it is the middle name (used in some cultures) that is used for child discipline?
 * Is this just an American practice or the greater British-influenced practice (across the anglosphere) or the greater Western European practice? A first-gen Polish American said she never encountered this practice at home, only in American sitcoms; Poland is part of Central Europe, not Western Europe.
 * How did the middle name (or is it the full name?) rise as part of child discipline?
 * How are American children conditioned to believe that the full name or the middle name would automatically mean they are in BIG trouble? Like, do American parents ONLY do this when the kids are in big trouble, creating an association between a bad incident and the full name? I have heard that being called by one's full name as a kid is simply terrifying. Hmmm...
 * Is this tied to the story of Rumplestiltskin, or at least provides the cultural basis for Rumplestiltskin?


 * It's being called by one's full legal name, not necessarily the middle name as such. The basic idea is that your mother doesn't ordinarily call you by your full formal name, so when she does, it means something.  I would not call it "disciplinary", but a tactic to persuade the child that the situation is serious, or that they should pay close attention. AnonMoos (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't know how far back it goes, but I recall this line from a Star Trek episode: "Harcourt Fenton Mudd, where have you been???" <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 03:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * It's really just an unusual emphasis on the name that indicates that things are serious. Using the longer form of the name is a way to allow for even more emphasis than the everyday short form, because every syllable can be emphasized individually. --142.112.221.114 (talk) 04:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That technique might not have worked for kids named William Henry Harrison or William Howard Taft. Either that, or they got used to it. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 04:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I doubt that it was regularly applied to Bernhard Leopold Friedrich Eberhard Julius Kurt Karl Gottfried Peter Prinz zur Lippe-Biesterfeld. If it was, it had no lasting effect on this scoundrel. --Lambiam 10:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Or to Louis George Maurice Adolphe Roche Albert Abel Antonio Alexandre Noë Jean Lucien Daniel Eugène Joseph-le-brun Joseph-Barême Thomas Thomas Thomas-Thomas Pierre Arbon Pierre-Maurel Barthélemi Artus Alphonse Bertrand Dieudonné Emanuel Josué Vincent Luc Michel Jules-de-la-plane Jules-Bazin Julio César Jullien. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Or, indeed, to HRH Don Alfonso Maria Isabel Francisco Eugenio Gabriel Pedro Sebastian Pelayo Fernando Francisco de Paula Pio Miguel Rafael Juan José Joaquin Ana Zacarias Elisabeth Simeón Tereso Pedro Pablo Tadeo Santiago Simon Lucas Juan Mateo Andrès Bartolomé Ambrosio Geronimo Agustin Bernardo Candido Gerardo Luis-Gonzaga Filomeno Camilo Cayetano Andrès-Avelino Bruno Joaquin-Picolimini Felipe Luis-Rey-de-Francia Ricardo Esteban-Protomartir Genaro Nicolas Estanislao-de-Koska Lorenzo Vicente Crisostomo Cristano Dario Ignacio Francisco-Javier Francisco-de Borja Higona Clemente Esteban-de-Hungria Ladislado Enrique Ildefonso Hermenegildo Carlos-Borromoeo Eduardo Francisco-Régis Vicente-Ferrer Pascual Miguel-de-los-Santos Adriano Venancio Valentin Benito José-Oriol Domingo Florencio Alfacio Benére Domingo-de-Silos Ramon Isidro Manuel Antonio Todos-los-Santos Infante of Spain and Portugal. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Or to Adolph Blaine Charles David Earl Frederick Gerald Hubert Irvin John Kenneth Lloyd Martin Nero Oliver Paul Quincy Randolph Sherman Thomas Uncas Victor William Xerxes Yancy Zeus Wolfeschlegel­steinhausen­bergerdorff­welche­vor­altern­waren­gewissenhaft­schafers­wessen­schafe­waren­wohl­gepflege­und­sorgfaltigkeit­beschutzen­vor­angreifen­durch­ihr­raubgierig­feinde­welche­vor­altern­zwolfhundert­tausend­jahres­voran­die­erscheinen­von­der­erste­erdemensch­der­raumschiff­genacht­mit­tungstein­und­sieben­iridium­elektrisch­motors­gebrauch­licht­als­sein­ursprung­von­kraft­gestart­sein­lange­fahrt­hinzwischen­sternartig­raum­auf­der­suchen­nachbarschaft­der­stern­welche­gehabt­bewohnbar­planeten­kreise­drehen­sich­und­wohin­der­neue­rasse­von­verstandig­menschlichkeit­konnte­fortpflanzen­und­sich­erfreuen­an­lebenslanglich­freude­und­ruhe­mit­nicht­ein­furcht­vor­angreifen­vor­anderer­intelligent­geschopfs­von­hinzwischen­sternartig­raum Sr. -insert valid name here- (talk) 04:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * This is also a common practice in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * See also Full-Name Ultimatum from tvtropes.org, which was the most scholarly study of the phenomenom that I could find. Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)