Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 October 25

= October 25 =

Need accurate translation of a book title
I was surprised to find such an enormous variety of title translations when it comes to the work of artist Utagawa Kuniyoshi. Is this kind of variety normal when it comes to English translations of Japanese published works? I want to use the most accurate and culturally appropriate title for a new article I'm creating on Wikipedia. Two of the most commonly listed sources for titles are Robinson (1982) and Schaap (1998), although there are many more. The biography on Kuniyoshi currently lists the English title translation as Illustrated Abridged Biography of the Founder, which I am leaning towards as a preference. William Pearl's website Kuniyoshi Project refers to the title as Kōso goichidai ryakuzu, 高祖御一代略図. Thanks for any help and clarification. Viriditas (talk) 19:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)


 * This is pretty common with non-European languages in general for non-canonical works (meaning, works where people haven't written enough about them to have agreed on a conventional translation or title, à la The Great Wave off Kanagawa, for example. I wouldn't worry too much about it: while I think precise translations are important, going with a common, natural-sounding one in the sources is usually a good bet. Remsense  聊  20:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the reassurance. Am I crazy to think there should be a concerted effort, similar to authority control, to normalize accepted names of works, such that non-Wikipedia searches of one stylized title name will lead to a centralized database listing of all titles related to the same work? Viriditas (talk) 20:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I empathize, but generally Wikipedia shouldn't 'move first' on these things, is the assumption. In theory, it follows precedent present in sources in most things. Maybe such an initiative is apropos on Wikidata? Remsense  聊  20:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Good points. Thank you for helping. Viriditas (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] Viriditas, several items. (1) For an even worse example, see Sukiyaki (song); neither the word nor its meaning appears in the song.  It's as bad as Duck Soup (1933 film).  (2) The closest we get to our own authority control is Wikidata.  Check to see if there are any relevant entries over there, and if not, create one.  Given the Internet's heavy reliance on Wikipedia and Wikidata (cf. HD/GKG), merely by creating an article and a WD entry, you may move the anglophone Internet's references to this book toward the title you pick.  (3) Do you have access to an academic or large public library, especially in the US?  If so, you could reach out to the cataloguing team there.  MARC 240 provides authority control for titles.  Cataloguers in good US libraries will use software such as OCLC Connexion that permits them to search MARCs of WorldCat records and may provide access to a compliant authority file of its own, and they'll have the training and mindset to comply with authority control processes.  (Non-US libraries may use similar software; I don't know, as my employer here in Australia doesn't have the budget for any of it.)  If you're able to contact a library with professional cataloguers, especially a library with a good Asian studies collection, they should be able to give you the uniform title or able to tell you that there isn't one.  Nyttend (talk) 21:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Great advice, thank you. Viriditas (talk) 21:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The Japanese title translates literally to something like Sketches of the Founder's Life. The title does not use the usual Japanese terms for abridged and biography; I don't think these prints constitute a biography, abridged or not. Also, while an abridged work may be polished – perhaps more so than the unabridged version – "sketches" (ryakuzu) suggests a roughness, almost as if the author is apologizing they could not do a more thorough job. "The Founder" refers to the monk Nichiren, the founder of Nichiren Buddhism. --Lambiam 22:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. The problem is that the majority of English sources for this work use some variation of "Illustrated Abridged Biography of the Founder" more than they do "Sketches..."  My take, is that this is because older translations simply decided to use that title.  As someone who is trying to create an accurate title, this puts me between a rock and a hard place. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would use one of the attested translations, and note in the article, hopefully not committing WP:SYN, alternate translations. Remsense  聊  23:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. For me, Sketches of the Founder's Life is superior to any other title I've seen, yet I'm not sure I can fully support it aside from some links to a few art museums. Viriditas (talk) 23:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Just like direct quotations, titles of works need to be attested in sources. But faithfully translating sourced material from a foreign language into English is not considered original research. IMO this also applies to quotations and titles of works. --Lambiam 11:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't find anyone using Sketches of the Founder's Life, but I did find that the Ukiyo-e Ōta Memorial Museum of Art gives credence to Sketches of the Life of Nichiren, which is also used by the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. Do I have your "blessing" to use this title for the new article? There are, of course, other variations, like Sketches of the Life of Koso, and the Concise Illustrated Biography of Monk Nichiren that the MOMA uses, but I like the succinctness of Sketches of the Life of Nichiren and the fact that at least one Japanese art museum uses it. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Using "Koso" is strange, because kōso is a common noun. Using Nichiren is definitely more explicit than the Japanese title. It is a bit as if the title of the book The Prince of Darkness is translated into Japanese as リチャード・パール. Some sources use Sketches of the Life of the Great Priest. A kōso in the Buddhist sense is also a daishi – a "great priest", so this may come closest to the original Japanese in spirit. --Lambiam 23:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The article Nichiren actually mentions that an edict of Emperor Taishō bestowed the title of Risshō Daishi upon the monk. That was, however, in 1922, long after Utagawa Kuniyoshi's death and close to a century after the publication of his print series. --Lambiam 10:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Blossom vs. flower
"Flower" and "blossom" are words deriving from the same Latin word. But "blossom" is a native English word and "flower" is a word of Latin origin (despite having a W in it.) How did "flower" become the standard English word?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would have thought from the French, fleur, and Wiktionary confirms this: flower. As for why it displaced it: 1066 and all that.--2A04:4A43:90AF:FAB6:3495:196E:D3B0:17DD (talk) 01:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Blossom isn't derived from any "Latin word"; what you mean is presumably that both words are descended from the same Indo-European source. Flower is just one of the many words that were adopted from French after the Norman Conquest. Often the native English word also survived, sometimes in a restricted or specialized sense—cf. chair (from Norman French) and stool (from the Old English word for a chair). Deor (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Blossom nowadays usually only refers to flowers on trees, so that fits. Alansplodge (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Blossom" is from Old English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Some Old English words come from Latin, e.g. abbod, biscop, candel. --Lambiam 10:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

My use of the word "Latin" was just a mistake. I should have said "Indo-European". Deor, thank you for correcting my mistake. Georgia guy (talk) 15:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)