Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 April 3

= April 3 =

Egyptian lexicons
Which have these qualities? I'm seeking Right now I'm especially interested in the use of color in ancient Egypt, where were the best-preserved colors found in Egyptian digs? Temerarius (talk) 16:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A public domain hieroglyphic dictionary that's good in readability
 * An image-detailed one with hieroglyphs at different scales and in color
 * An "unabridged" as in non-Bowdlerized one. (eg Christopher Ehret is a good writer for this quality)
 * Attestations (divine name spelling)
 * The "standard."


 * Not sure why you place so much emphasis on color; there aren't any distinctive chromatic contrasts in hieroglyphic writing, as far as I'm aware. AnonMoos (talk) 22:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There's this shape I thought was a pinecone or bud until I saw it in faience the other day, turns out it's a grape cluster. I saw predynastic style black-topped red ware in W24 nw "bulbous cup" from a relief from long after they fell out of production. That was yesterday. All kinds of things you can find in color! Wikiproject Ancient Egypt doesn't seem to have a general discussion forum, should I ask them?
 * Temerarius (talk) 16:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * OK, you want to correlate hieroglyphic signs with the actual physical objects which they're stylized representations of. That's not really what most people who deal with hieroglyphs are concerned with most of the time, so standard reference works may be of little help.  I own a book comparing hieroglyphs to Egyptian artworks which may be of interest.  I can't turn up my copy now (it's probably beneath a pile of books which is behind another pile of books) but based on a little Google searching, I think it's "Reading Egyptian Art: A Hieroglyphic Guide to Ancient Egyptian Painting and Sculpture" by Richard H. Wilkinson.  It only covers 100 selected hieroglyphs, but it's in color! AnonMoos (talk) 15:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's anything specialist about wanting to know what the hieroglyphs are. I figured there'd be dozens of Egypt-heads around. If anyone's reading along, this mentions: Collier's How to read Egy hieroglyphs 1998, Faulkner's A concise dictionary of Middle Egy. 62, Allen's Middle Egy. 2000/2010, and Gardiner's Egy Grammar 3rd Ed '57-.
 * Miniature miscellaneous general supplemental Egyptian reference library. Temerarius (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "The complete gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt" wilkinson 03 begins with good color photos of painted reliefs etc. Temerarius (talk) 18:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Questions
--40bus (talk) 18:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Are there any words in English where letter I is pronounced as /iː/ in the beginning or end of word?
 * 2) Are there any words in English ending in stressed A?
 * 3) Is there any dialect where checked vowels can appear at the end of word?
 * 4) Is there any other Germanic language than English where half-hour refers to the next hour, rather than previous?
 * 5) Can spoken analog clock hours be used also from 13 to 24, e.g. 16:28 would be twenty-eight past sixteen? Is it common to say "it is sixteen" when the time is about 16:00?
 * 6) Is there any Slavic language with /æ/ phoneme?
 * 7) Is there any other Spanish dialect than Judaeo-Spanish that has /v/ phoneme?
 * 8) Is there any language with open back unrounded vowel and none other open vowels?

1

 * I kind of missed this one before. Answers include "ski" and "bikini" to start with (plus a zillion place names derived from other languages). AnonMoos (talk) 02:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Some are arguably not native English, but all are fairly common in English: deli, graffiti, hibachi, kabuki, khaki, linguini, literati, macaroni, martini, mini, okapi, origami, panini, paparazzi, pastrami, patchouli, pepperoni, pierogi, safari, salami, satori, scampi, spaghetti, spermaceti, swami, tandoori, taxi, teriyaki, tiki, timpani, tsunami, vermicelli, wasabi, yeti, zamboni, zucchini. CodeTalker (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledge most if not all words starting with the letter i pronounced as /iː/ are borrowed from other languages. One such word is imam, and no other words are coming to my head. I imagine that some aspect of English phonology heavily encourages the pronunciation of starting /iː/s as /ɪ/ instead, although what this is called (if it is a thing) is beyond me. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @GalacticShoe: its article states the English language pronunciation is, not . and  support this. Bazza 7  (talk) 08:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * imam gives both pronunciations, although I imagine that /ɪ/ is probably more common. GalacticShoe (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ian (if proper names count). — Kpalion(talk) 08:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * email is /ˈiːmeɪl/ according to wiktionary. Evening and easel and easy also begin with /iː/. --NorwegianBluetalk 15:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Although these words do start with /iː/, 40bus was looking for cases where this comes in conjunction with being spelled with the letter i as well. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Although these words do start with /iː/, 40bus was looking for cases where this comes in conjunction with being spelled with the letter i as well. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

2

 * The musical note "la" as in fa, so la ti, do, and the word "California" as pronounced in the Beach Boys song "Surfin' USA". [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Aha! --Antiquary (talk) 09:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da -- Verbarson talkedits 15:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Not English exactly, but Latin as anglophones say it, so it's a kind of English: I can't help remembering my school Latin lessons: mens-a, mens-a, mens-am, mens-ae, mens-ae, mens-a. :) -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought you were talking about the organization Mensa at first, although that would rather be a name than a word, anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

3

 * 'dialect' of what [language]? One I can think of is Cantonese, considered by some a dialect of Chinese, definitely a dialect of Yue Chinese. Cantonese has what are called checked or entering tones, which cut off the end after the vowel, leaving just a vowel. 六十七 ("six ten seven", i.e. 67) is pronounced "luk sap chat" but the k, p and t at the end of each syllable is cut off, like a glottal stop, leaving just a checked vowel - though in the language they're described as checked tones.--2A04:4A43:901F:FD76:95BB:EFCA:6740:BD62 (talk) 23:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I meant a dialect of English that does so. I thought you understand that, as "checked vowel" is a central term in English phonetics. --40bus (talk) 12:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The concept of checked vowels is used in many languages besides English. By definition, they normally don't appear in word-final position, but some dialects may do something strange. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

4

 * "Half-hour" (e.g. "half-four") is simply shorthand for the more usual "half past hour" (e.g. "half past four", meaning 16:30). Bazza 7 (talk) 19:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I am somewhat confused by 40bus' usage of "next" and "previous" here. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Some varieties of English, I believe, use e.g. "half of four" to mean half an hour before four o'clock. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 23:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This formulation seems entirely alien to me. I can't remember ever encountering it, regardless of its meaning. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * See Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 January 28. 2A00:23C5:E12F:5300:7D1D:2AEE:DD4F:3418 (talk) 16:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I was part of that discussion. Aside from questions from 40bus, I have no recollection of ever encountering it. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Khajidha: Probably an WP:ENGVAR thing. I haven't seen it written, but in speech I've heard it and said it. "I'll see you in the pub at half-six." Bazza 7 (talk) 08:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if I heard that my response would probably be "Why is he making it so complicated to say 3 o'clock?" --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me assure you that in British English it is commmon and unremarkable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 16:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Alansplodge (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * By way of a reference, an American in Ireland: Some of the expressions were hilarious by American standards... When someone said they'll meet at half-six, they don't mean three o'clock, but at half past six.  Alansplodge (talk) 22:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * 40bus asks if there are any other German languages that follow the English style (with half-N meaning half an hour after N), and I think the answer is 'No'. The other languages I can think of, use the formula to mean 'halfway towards the hour', like German halb zwölf meaning 'half past eleven' etc. This is in keeping with other uses of 'half', as in the Danish counting system, where 50 is halvtreds, short for halvtredsinstyve, lit. 'half of the third twenty'. Also used in ordinary numbering, like Norwegian halvannen ('half the second', one and a half). So the question is really why English have ended up with the opposite use. --T*U (talk) 07:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

5

 * Yes they can, but they are not (generally). No it is not common. Bazza 7 (talk) 19:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * In the United States, the 24-hour clock has associations with military time ("Men, we take the beach at 1600 hours"). See 24-hour clock... AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In the United States, is the 24-hour clock ever used in shop opening hours and public transport timetables? Or can 24-hour digital clock times be read as e.g. 16:28 sixteen twenty-eight? --40bus (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know about public transport timetables (I want to say "what public transport?" here), but I can't recall ever seeing public clocks or time listings using 24-hour times. Everybody thinks I'm strange for using it on my clocks, computer, cell phone, etc. It is invariably pointed out that "this isn't the military". User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that the twenty-four hour clock is used more in the UK than in the USA, but it's only ever spoken digitally, so 23:15 would be "twenty-three fifteen" or "a quarter-past eleven" but not "a quarter-past twenty-three" (or at least I've never heard the like). Alansplodge (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

6

 * According to Near-open front unrounded vowel, it's occurring dialectally in Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian, and it's an allophonic variant in Russian and Slovak. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

7

 * This is purely hearsay, from a friend of mine who is fluent in Spanish, but Catalan-accented Spanish may have a noticeable /v/ pronunciation. I wouldn't necessarily count this as a "dialect", but if someone else can confirm, that would be much-appreciated. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)