Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 April 8

= April 8 =

Error spotted on protected article
I am not sure where to post this, so I will post it here. I was reading this article and saw that instead of "pursue", the article said "persue" which is the wrong spelling, but as I am a new user I cannot edit it. MushakuYT (talk) 16:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * MushakuYT, you could try Help desk‎ with this kind of query. I have found and fixed three instances of "persue", but didn't find it in the article you linked. I left others which are part of older texts or followed by "sic". TSventon (talk) 16:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I skimmed through the article, and found at least one example of "peruse", which is a completely different word. It might be that you were just mistaken... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes it was that, sorry. I was mistaken, I should have double checked before posting here. MushakuYT (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will do that for any future problems like this, although now I just realised that it says "peruse" not "persue". Sorry, it was my mistake, not the article's. MushakuYT (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Normally, the obvious place to raise this question would be on the article's talk page. I was kind of surprised that the talk page is also semi'd. Too many children messing with it, apparently. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * "Peruse" is a somewhat obscure word to use in an article intended as a guide for new editors (not all of whom will be EFL speakers). Perhaps someone could change it to "read"? (I would if I could, but can't, because semi-protection). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. I might argue that a term like "survey" or "browse" would also work. But "read" is unambiguous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Dictionnaire français-argot (1901)
My query regards this entry for bouche by Aristide Bruant and Léon de Bercy, particularly the use of gueule de bois and the example they provide:

⸺ BOUCHE PATEUSE à la suite de libations. Gueule de bois. Oui, j* me suis soûlé comme un veau... J'étais plein... rond comme un' barrique! Bon Dieu! j' boirais ben un verr' d'eau, J'ai la fTueui' sec comme un coup d' Irique. Ah ! c'est épatant c' qu'on boit, Ouand on a la gueul de bois. (A. B. Les Souloloques d Honoré Constant.)

⸺ PASTY MOUTH following libations. Hangover. Yes, I got drunk like a calf... I was full... as round as a barrel! Good God! I would drink a glass of water, My head is as dry as a stroke of iron. Ah! It's amazing what we drink, when we have a hangover. (A. B. Les Souloloques by Honoré Constant.)

I am trying to trace the origins of the painting title (not the metaphor itself) The Hangover (Gueule de Bois / La Buveuse), also known as The Drinker, by Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec. The sources say that Aristide Bruant gave it the title, but are somewhat obscure as to how and why. They point to Bruant's songs and lyrics, in one instance. I was able to find this slang dictionary that Bruant and Léon de Bercy published that mentions the "Les Souloloques d Honoré Constant", but searching for that only brings me back to the slang dictionary itself. Any ideas what "A. B. Les Souloloques by Honoré Constant" refers to here, and if it is referring to the lyrics of a song Bruant used to sing? Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this helps, but I was able to find mention of someone named "Fortune Honore Constant Lagier de Vaugelas", who was apparently a writer of sorts in the mid-19th century. No idea if this is the same person. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a pun. Soliloque = soliloquy, and Soul[ot] = drunk: SOULOloque. And "A. B." is for Aristide Bruant. - AldoSyrt (talk) 07:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Do you think it's the lyrics to one of his songs? It certainly rhymes in French, so I'm guessing it's something he sung? Viriditas (talk) 08:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I find a reference here []. Search for "Constant". Honoré Constant, type de député ivrogne, paillard, socialiste et bon garçon... Honoré Constant, type of deputy, drunkard, bawdy, socialist and nice fellow. – AldoSyrt (talk) 07:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * So, it sounds like "Honoré Constant" is a character he plays in the cabaret, correct? Viriditas (talk) 08:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Here is the full poem "Gueule de Bois" by Bruant, which he published in his weekly newspaper La Lanterne de Bruant as part of the series "Les Souloloques d'&thinsp;Honoré Constant" and which he references in the Dictionnaire Français–Argot. It does not establish a connection to the painting. Which sources say that Bruant gave the painting this title? --Lambiam 08:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There are many, and I'm still in the process of collating the citations. The easiest example is of the Fogg Museum, the hosting institution that owns the painting: "Aristide Bruant, a cabaret owner, singer, and songwriter who exhibited Toulouse-Lautrec’s work in his establishment, gave this painting its title. Bruant’s songs were often about the condition of the urban poor and the theme of excessive drinking." Keep in mind, this was not unusual.  Toulouse-Latrec based several of his paintings on songs by Bruant, such as A Montrouge–Rosa La Rouge (1886-1887), a painting that depicts a fictional prostitute who lured men to their deaths (her pimp would kill them) that Bruant used to sing about.  Also, Bruant would write and sing about these things at his cabaret Le Mirliton, while Toulouse-Latrec would patronize the club, go home, and then hire models to represent the characters he just heard Bruant sing about.  Then, when the paintings were complete, Bruant would hang them on the walls of the club and presumably name them.  This artistic process isn't so unusual; a lot of artists will see or listen to something and use that as a nucleus for creation. I've written about this process before in many other articles, such as Sky Above Clouds ("American classical composer Marga Richter based her Concerto No. 2, Landscapes of the Mind I for piano and orchestra on [O'Keeffe's painting]...'After seeing the paintings...I immediately went to the piano and wrote the opening of what became my piano concerto'") It's a very common type of inspiration.  Given that the poem and the painting are both named "Gueule de Bois", I think that's a match. Furthermore, if I understand the provenance, Toulouse-Latrec basically abandoned the painting and left it with Bruant, although that's my own speculation based on what I've read about his other work.  Toulouse-Latrec abandoned or gave away a lot of his early work. Viriditas (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * According to this source, Bruant bought Gueule de Bois for what was by then the permanent Lautrec exhibition at Le Mirliton. --Lambiam 10:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's an odd account. Most of the art historians prior to that source say Bruant "borrowed" the paintings to exhibit at his club. Sweetman in 1999 says that Bruant commissioned them.  He doesn't cite any sources. In a extensively researched 1979 exhibition cataglog, Naomi E. Maurer writes "Lautrec first exhibited publicly in 1886, when Aristide Bruant began to borrow pictures to decorate his cabaret Le Mirleton on the boulevard Rochechouart".  Maurer goes on to describe several of the paintings as "gifts" to Bruant.  It's certainly possible that both are correct.  I'm looking at Dortu's 1971 catalogue raisonné now for details.  I do recall reading differing accounts on Toulouse-Lautrec's finances.  It seems he had plenty of cash so there was no need to sell the works to Bruant, but another source says his finances were getting stretched at some unknown date because his family was squeezing him out of his inheritance (via property sales, IIRC). Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Update: Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec catalogue raisonné, 1986 Sugana. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There's so many discrepancies in 1986 Sugana, I'm not even sure it's usable anymore. I suppose the literature has changed a great deal since 1986. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Brief follow-up question that goes beyond language: Has all the music behind these lyrics been lost?  Has anyone tried to recreate these songs? Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Apparently, not all is lost. See also these. --Lambiam 10:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It's "gueul' sec" ("dry gob"), not "fTueui' sec". I had to look it up since fTueui' looked suspicious, even as a slang term. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, encoding error. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)