Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 February 26

= February 26 =

English numbers
Why does English, unlike German and Dutch, place units before tens in compound numbers? --40bus (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * It didn't in Old English, see Old English/Numbers. I found this (access to the full article through the Wikipedia Library):
 * From unit-and-ten to ten-before-unit order in the history of English numerals
 * Alansplodge (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Are you talking about poetic uses such as "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I remember people forty years ago who would normally say "five-and-twenty to ten" for times. They may still be alive. ColinFine (talk) 11:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * English four+teen, German vier+zehn, Dutch veer+tien: unit count takes the first position in all. But English twenty+four, German vier+und+zwanzig, Dutch vier+en+twintig: in the English numeral the units are placed in last position, not "before tens" as you wrote. The switch from the Old English "Germanic" order to the current one may have been influenced by (Anglo Norman) French, which has that order for the numerals from 17 onwards (with some irregularities, such as sixante quatorse for 74).  --Lambiam 22:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Lambiam: Standard spelling is "soixante-quatorze". All French number words from 71 to 79 and 91 to 99 use "-teen" analogous forms... AnonMoos (talk) 03:57, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Anglo-Norman did not have a standard spelling. --Lambiam 11:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Didn't notice that distinction, but it's still the modern French standard spelling which many millions use every day (unlike medieval Anglo-Norman French). AnonMoos (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * To be honest, French numbers are a unique kind of weird above 69. I wouldn't give them much notice. Pablothepenguin (talk) 12:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Not all French speakers have such weird numbers. I remember seeing a documentary on Belgian television about events in the 1990s, where they simply said nonante-sept instead of quatre-vingt-dix-sept. PiusImpavidus (talk) 13:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * IIRC, in France Septante is used for the Septuagint, but not generally for the number. As PiusImpavidus alludes to, the continuation of the Latin decades is rather a Belgian and Swiss thing. Double sharp (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * In an early Asterix there is a walk-on by "le druide belge Septantesix", a gag that I did not get for many years! —Tamfang (talk) 00:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The reason I mentioned French is because of its influence on the evolution of English. Old English only had the order fēoƿer and tƿēntiġ. The other order makes its first appearance in Middle English. The question was why English has this order, so the French order is potentially relevant. --Lambiam 20:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There's a German association that wants to change the German order to be like English: de:Zwanzigeins (the name is probably self-explanatory).
 * Double_sharp -- That would certainly give a different rhythm to "Neunundneunzig Luftballons". [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)


 * According to this source, in Czech both orders are possible, but looking at Czech Wikipedia suggests that tens-before-ones (like English) is more common. Double sharp (talk) 14:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Omniglot also indicates both orders as possible in Kashubian. Double sharp (talk) 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * When I started working in Norway in 1982 both systems were in regular use, with a slight preference for the old form, e.g. fem og tuve (five and twenty) for 25. this research shows that 15 years later not a lot had changed. I was working in Bergen, where there were a good sprinkling of nynorsk speakers and quite a few Bergensers with their own dialect. I've not lived there since 2010 so I don't know if things have changed by now. Mikenorton (talk) 18:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)