Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 February 3

= February 3 =

The  in Bryne, the town in Norway: tap, flap, or ʁ?
Hi all,

Please see this.

As far as I can see, it depends on which part of Norway you're from, but as always, please do prove me wrong.

Skjorte 58 aka Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

(Hmm... is skjorte a cognate of en "skirt"? Or possibly related to Cutty Sark's chemise?) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


 * FWIW, Wiktionary gives the pronunciation of the common noun brynje as for both Bokmål and Nynorsk. If allophonic substitution occurs, it seems unlikely that this is the rule.  --Lambiam 11:33, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Seems as if English "shirt" is native, whereas "skirt" is a borrowing from Old Norse with semantic shift, whereas - somewhat confusingly - in Norwegin "skjorte" (shirt) is native, whereas "skjørt" (skirt) ultimately is a Middle Low German borrowing. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I believe it is a ɾ officially, but it might be ʁ locally, as dialects don't tend to distinguish between the two sounds. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The map in Torp (2001) indicates Bryne is in an area where /r/ is dorsal "in all generations". But that is irrelevant, per MOS:PRON, to the ANI thread in question because Help:IPA/Norwegian does not list ⟨ʁ⟩. Nardog (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It also seems strange to me that the anon keeps edit warring over the transcription of the rhotic, but seems ignorant to the fact that Accent 1 is not realized as a low tone in Western Norway... unless Bryne bears Accent 2 in local speech. WN tones are pretty much the reverse of what you can find in Oslo and Trondheim, with WN Accent 1 sounding like O/T Accent 2 and vice versa. No wonder learners of Norwegian find learning the tones frustrating. Sol505000 (talk) 11:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Would local dialectal pronunciations generally be given for place names, in case they differ from official usage? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Optionally, yes, as long as the transcription doesn't link to a key it doesn't conform to. Nardog (talk) 14:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Such as a paranthesis; (Locally: [ˈbʁyːnə]), would that be valid? (I guess the ə should have an accent, although I don't know how to accomplish it, or would that be [ˈbʁyːnè]?) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The convention is to mark the stressed vowel with the tone mark: - that's assuming the name has Accent 1, which I don't know. The final vowel is most likely still a schwa, as in Oslo. Sol505000 (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)