Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 February 5

= February 5 =

Spanish passive voice
Can intransitive verbs be used in passive voice in Spanish? Like if in Finnish it is possible to say täällä nukutaan, is it possible to say aquí es dormido in Spanish? In English, here is slept is not possible because English requires a subject to every clause and passive subject is active object, so verbs that cannot get active obejct cannot get a passive subject. But Spanish is a null-subject and pro-drop language, so can Spanish use such verbs in passive? --40bus (talk) 20:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The general name for this is Impersonal passive voice... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Does Spanish have that? --40bus (talk) 11:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Here the sentence hay que ser querido is given as an example of the impersonal passive voice. --Lambiam 12:31, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Romance languages commonly express passives as reflexives, so I would guess aquí se duerme is more likely; though I cannot now think of an example with an intransitive verb. —Tamfang (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Jacob, Jacob-El and Jaq-Ba'al
Which is attested earlier? Temerarius (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The triconsonantal root is עקב, in which case "Jaq-Ba'al" would not be related to the other two. AnonMoos (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Meruserre Yaqub-Har (other spelling: Yakubher, also known as Yak-Baal) What do you mean not related? How could that be not related? Temerarius (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The "B" of בעל simply cannot be etymologically the same as the "B" of עקב . There is no connection between the consonantal roots of the two forms.   Your Latin alphabet transcriptions which inconsistently ignore `Ayin are of very little value for etymological purposes. AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "The "B" of בעל simply cannot be etymologically the same as the "B" of עקב." You see the conflict. Yes, that's why I'm asking. Temerarius (talk) 22:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Possibly some Egyptians may have thought that the "b" in the two names could be related, but in their original West Semitic context, they were not so. And the Egyptian language also had a system of consonantal roots (though the complete lack of writing of vowels in Hieroglyphics etc. makes it hard for modern scholars to understand the details of how it worked), and an `ayin consonant... AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)


 * states that Jacob-El is found in cuneiform inscriptions (spelled ya-ah-qu-ub-el, ya-qu-ub-el) as early as c.  1800 BC, which suggests that the personal name Jacob may be a shortening from this compound name and thus is later. --Lambiam 12:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is an instance where it's important to distinguish the alef and ayin. Temerarius (talk) 18:59, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yakbim How about this name? Related or not related? Temerarius (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The answer may depend on who you ask (IMO not an RS). --Lambiam 15:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Symbol question
https://imgur.com/a/tNO2Hp4 What is this first symbol? Is there a hieroglyph matching the one on the scarab? Temerarius (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Direct image link. It couldn't be a Phoenician He letter? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you asking what the first symbol on the scarab is? (That seems to be the reed, M17 on Gardiner's sign list, sometimes drawn with lines across.) Or the first thumbnail image on the left? (That seems to be Linear B sign "ze", possibly from Knossos tablet KN 894 N v 01.) --Amble (talk) 19:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Why is it called "za?" 𐀽 does look like a distinct variation on the same thing. What do they say it's supposed to be? Temerarius (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s a syllable sign, so it just stands for the syllable “ze” in various Greek words written in Linear B. Its shape and sound might come from Linear A, but we don’t know how to read Linear A or what language(s) it represents. —Amble (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any more info on the character in Understanding Relations Between Scripts: The Aegean Writing Systems by Philippa M. Steele. Temerarius (talk) 17:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * For examples of the reed leaf hieroglyph M17 with lines across, see File:Kha_and_Merit_before_Osiris_Book_of_the_Dead_of_Kha.jpg. --Amble (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)