Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 January 11

= January 11 =

Spark out
What is the origin of this phrase? I was looking at spark out and I see it means "Completely asleep or unconscious." But it says nothing about where it's from. Is it a Cockney thing? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Cartoon iconography or related? As in old comic strips and cartoons with boxers knocked out while stars orbit around their heads... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Possibly a bit of hyperbole for the spark of life being out. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd always assumed it was when you have to reach for a box of matches because the pilot light has gone out. Or maybe something to do with these. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In the verb form, the meaning is similar to "punch your lights out."  The construction is traced back to the 1960s .2A02:C7B:11B:9000:2C30:AE00:938B:1276 (talk) 16:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That source does not so much trace as simply assert. My suspicion (from its being used in my family) is that it is somewhat older – the OED suggests its usage from 1879. I conjecture (no more than that) that it alludes to an absence of spark in an engine's spark plugs, leaving the engine unresponsive. (Note: the Spark plug was invented in 1860.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 10:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I always assumed that it was a synonym for "seeing stars" when hit on the head. Our article is phosphene:
 * Another common phosphene is "seeing stars" from a sneeze, laughter, a heavy and deep cough, blowing of the nose, a blow on the head....
 * Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm, although I have experienced phosphene, myself, occasionally, I hadn't thought about it being related to orbiting cartoon stars. It does make some sort of sense, when I think about it, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * But they're stars, not sparks? OED says here: "The earliest known use of the adjective spark out is in the 1870s. OED's earliest evidence for spark out is from 1879, in the writing of John Hartley, dialect poet and writer." It looks like the Etymology is now behind a paywall, but you can log in with a library card. The example given seems to be just a normal domestic fire. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Green's Dictionary of Slang (accessed through the Wikipedia Library) says "electrical imagery". Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * For those who don't have access to that OED page, the earliest instance they provide, from dialect poet John Hartley in 1879, is this:
 * "Th' fire wor spark aght." - J. Hartley, Orig. Clock Almanack 1880 17. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"a hornet's nest" v. "a hornets' nest"
Why does the idiom go "to stir up a hornet's nest" with the singular possessive as well? This doesn't really seem to make sense considering that a nest always consists of multiple specimens. Hildeoc (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


 * You might argue that it's really the Queen Hornet's nest? There's only one of her! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In book uses both are found, with hornet's nest being a clear winner, taking up about 70% of the uses. --Lambiam 08:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Lambiam: Yes, but still, this is awkward language, isn't it? Hildeoc (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it's an idiom. As long as the meaning is understood, the individual words used matter not. Bazza (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Bazza 7: I know, but don't even idioms usually follow a certain sense of grammatical logic? Hildeoc (talk) 21:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * it's the nest of "the hornet", the Platonic ideal object, rather than any individual hornet. Compare with, say, "the dwellings of Man", meaning human habitation in general.
 * This also recalls my ongoing conundrum with whether to prefer or  (and I hope no one will defend the barbarism *farmers market).  I think I really prefer the singular possessive on the grounds that it's the market of the Platonic farmer, but on the other hand there are so many people who don't know the plural possessive punctuation and it's such a good opportunity to teach it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Trovatore: More concerning is the tendancy for some of those establishments to not feature farmers, regardless of their apostrophic position or absence. Bazza (talk) 09:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they never feature Platonic farmers either, not even Aristotelian ones, only potato's, tomato's and mango's. Am obviously going to the wrong one's. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, Trovatore, these conundra are enough to send one into tantra. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:09, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Hildeoc: The grammar is fine. Using the singular to cover a group is neither unusual nor wrong. Stating that "the platypus is an odd-looking creature" is not picking on a specific individual of the species. Bazza (talk) 09:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Bazza 7: Yeah, but in this case you're applying the definite article. But I certainly see Trovatore's point about the Platonic ideal. Hildeoc (talk) 20:02, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hildeoc: Regardless of the explanations above, and your analysis of why the idiom may be "wrong", it is what it is: "a hornet's nest", as shown in these reliable records of English usage:
 * Cambridge, sometimes "hornets' nest"
 * Collins, from 1730–1740
 * dictionary.com, from 1730–1740
 * Merriam-Webster, from 1740
 * OED, only as "hornets' nest", from 1590
 * It's worth remembering that unlike, say, French or German, English is not a controlled language: it has evolved, and dictionaries such as those above record usage, not prescribe it. Bazza (talk) 21:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, though I never denied that ... Hildeoc (talk) 23:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yay! Bring on the potato's. Plenty of written examples. But thanks Hildeoc for the Ancient Greek spelling bee. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:54, 15 January 2024 (UTC)