Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 January 9

= January 9 =

Why I see you are a bee, or in brief: Y.I.C.U.R.A.B.
For the time being, this is the longest meaningful abbreviation I've invented. Assuming that also I.C.Q (=I seek you) and likewise is allowed, and also numerals are allowed (e.g. 2.B.4.U), what is the longest sentence (or expression) of this type, in English? Note that special characters, like: @,&,$,%,#,=,>,+,* (and so forth), are excluded. Of course, acronyms (e.g. U.N and U.S.A and U.K and the like) are excluded as well. Additionally, examples (of any length) in other languages will be helpful (Unless they are in: Chinese, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, or in any other language whose orthography is not based on any alphabet). Thanks. HOTmag (talk) 07:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)


 * If you will allow numerals, I dimly remember a bad Anglo-French bilingual joke involving the death by drowning of some oddly named cats, culminating in a punchline rendible as 1 2 3 4 5 (un deux trois cats sank.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 08:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of it. Thx. HOTmag (talk) 09:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There is a Dutch one, XIMATZN, which (when spoken quickly but letter by letter by a Dutch speaker) sounds like ik zie Emma thee zetten, meaning "I see Emma make tea". --Lambiam 09:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Thx. But are the first letters XI pronounced "ik zie" or "iks i"? Additionally, is the last letter in the last word (zetten) pronounced or silent? HOTmag (talk) 10:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * XI is pronounce like /ɪksi/. But this is how the ⟨k z⟩ in the sentence is pronounced: the obstruent /z/ is devoiced to /s/ by progressive assimilation to the preceding voiceless /k/. Compare the pronunciation /ˈdɪk.sɑk/ of dikzak. Wiktionary gives the pronunciation of zetten as /ˈzɛ.tə(n)/: pronouncing the /n/ is facultative, depending on the speaker, the region and the register. The major difference is that the name of the letter N is pronounced /ɛn/, not with a schwa but with a front vowel. --Lambiam 18:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Correct, the assimilation /z/-/s/ often occurs, and not only with /z/ but also with /v/ (e.g. in "het vee") and likewise. However, it doesn't occur when the whole expression is uttered word by word. Compare English: "give it-to me": when uttered word by word, one should hear the sound /t/ twice. Maybe that's why you had added the condition of being uttered "quickly". However, in my criterion, "piece-see" can't be abbrieviated as P.C: Although this assimilation is likely to occur, it is not if the whole expression is uttered word by word, which is a condition I require - otherwise I wouldn't rule out the abbreviation (will) E.C. either - when meaning: (will) "he see". Anyway, I admit the Dutch example you presented is interesting. HOTmag (talk) 09:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * FUNEM? S,VFM. FUNEX? S,VFX. LFMNX.
 * Have you any ham? Yes, we have ham. Have you any eggs? Yes, we have eggs. I'll have ham and eggs.
 * (Dredged up from a distant childhood, the only source I know being my father.) -- Verbarson talkedits 10:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * What accent is it? A Dutch one? HOTmag (talk) 10:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It was (supposedly) Swedish: from the "Swedish Made Simple" sketch by The Two Ronnies (see The_Two_Ronnies). Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  10:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a Two Ronnies accent. Bazza (talk) 10:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A champion not for its own length, but for the expansion factor. may be Voltaire's letter rebus in French, G. a., given in reply to a rebus dinner invitation by Frederick the Great. It expands to J'ai grand appétit ("I have a great appetite"). --Lambiam 10:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thx. HOTmag (talk) 10:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I remember a rhyme: YYURYYUBYYURYY4 me.


 * Too wise you are,
 * Too wise you be,
 * Too wise you are,
 * Too wise for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7B:228:3400:A180:B29C:E1CD:CF6B (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)


 * In fact, it's longer . 2A02:C7B:228:3400:A180:B29C:E1CD:CF6B (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Correct, provided that YY is being pronounced "two wise". In my criterions, though, YY should be pronounced: "why why", so the whole chain of words becomes ungrammatical. Instead of YY you could have written 2Y's, but the combination Y's consists of three characters, as opposed to the rule requiring a single character for every word. On the other hand, if you pronounce every character separately, then 2Y's should be pronounced "two why apostrophe ess". Anyway, thank you for your new idea. it was interesting! HOTmag (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @HOTmag: 2Y's? Oh, the horror! Bazza (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You are right, I, too, dislike adding an "apostrophe-s" for indicating the plural form. So, as you can understand, what I wrote to the user I was responding to, was not in my opinion, but rather in a hypothetical opinion which whoever disagrees with me (and with you) could adopt for defending the attitude presented by the user I was responding to.
 * I hope my clarification was not that complex... HOTmag (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The version I knew had as the third line ICUR > 'I see you are' -- Verbarson talkedits 10:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I used to have a book, a collection of verbal/literal curiosities, which included at least one extended passage written in this manner. The 'rule' of composition was as follows: B > 'be', 'bee'; QQ > 'to queue'; CCC > 'sees', 'seize'; AAAA > 'foray'. Therefore the exception to pronouncing the number was that three of any letter simply meant the plural without a count.
 * The passage concerned a classical tale, of which my only memory is the repeated O CCCR > 'O, Caesar!'. I associate this book with William Safire, but whether he wrote the whole book, or this section, or other parts, I am not sure. Sorry to be so vague. -- Verbarson talkedits 10:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Why CCC > 'sees', 'seize'? HOTmag (talk) 10:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this may be the item I remembered. -- Verbarson talkedits 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The plural of C, usually written as Cs or C's (as in "three C's in a row"), is pronounced the same as seize. --Lambiam 10:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course Cs (as well as C's) is pronounced like seize and like sees, but this fact has nothong to do with my question you've responded to, which asked why CCC had been equated with sees (and with seize) by a previous user. HOTmag (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course Cs (as well as C's) is pronounced like seize and like sees, but this fact has nothong to do with my question you've responded to, which asked why CCC had been equated with sees (and with seize) by a previous user. HOTmag (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Back in 2020, a fantastic French one was cited, which makes use of all 26 letters of the alphabet, each exactly once. It doesn't include the ligatures and diacriticized characters, which are not considered distinct letters of the alphabet.
 * MUOBZLNDSATEGPYWQFIJKCRXHV
 * emme-u-o-bé-zède-elle-enne-dé-esse-a-té-e-gé-pé-i grec-double vé-qu-effe-i-ji-ka-cé-erre-ixe-ache-vé
 * ému aux baisers d'Hélène (déesse athée), Égée, pays grec, doux, bleu, vécut effigies cassées et rixes achevées
 * --Theurgist (talk) 14:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC) [edited by linking every word to Wiktionary entry --Theurgist (talk) 08:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)]


 * Quite interesting. Thank you. However, please notice "aux" is not exactly pronounced as "u o" is pronounced. The same is true for the pair "double, doux-bleu". HOTmag (talk) 14:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The -u- is the /u/ of ému. Also, while just double is pronounced /dubl/, I hear the French pronunciation of ⟨W⟩ as /dubløve/, the same as that of doux bleu vé-. --Lambiam 18:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Re. your first comment, I agree (for some reason I didn't notice the fact you've just pointed at). Re. your second comment, it may depend on the variety of French. In my accent, I always make a distinction between W (in French) and doux-bleu-V. HOTmag (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, the d in d'Hélène is muted... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You mean, it's pronounced /t/? --Theurgist (talk) 08:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It was \zɛd\ instead if \zɛ\. Sorry. I must have been rusty. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Me the same. I think, no joke, insufficiently ABBA inspired --Askedonty (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There are Ralph 124C 41+ and L.H.O.O.Q. which links to, with several references. --Error (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this article. maybe we should add all of the examples given in this thread to that article. HOTmag (talk) 15:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Please do not add any examples unless they can be sourced. --Lambiam 10:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The French phonetic pangram can be sourced to the book Jeux verbaux et créations verbales, ISBN 978-2-200-61812-4. It occurs on page 93 in the print edition, and its "translation" is given as Ému au baiser d'Hélène (déesse athée), Égée, pays grec doux, bleu, vécut effigie cassée et rixe achevée. It almost makes sense, although lacking a subject (Paris?) but not humour (the oxymoronic atheist goddess). --Lambiam 10:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ISNAQTSNAQTSNAQTSNAQT
 * I seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie seein' a cutie... (goes indefinitely)
 * seein' = seeing 115.188.140.167 (talk) 23:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * SN, is pronounced see-en, and is not pronounced seein'. HOTmag (talk) 07:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A bigger problem is that the letter 'a' tends to be stressed, whereas the article 'a' is unstressed, so the part 'I seein' ' is colloquial, whereas 'a cutie' is stressed, causing a kind of dissonance or disjunction, although I guess it could be alleviated somewhat by adding an M like 'IMCNAQT...' 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "YICURAB"
 * UCYICURAB
 * UCYICURAB2
 * UCYICURABI8
 * UCYICURABI82
 * An even longer sentence: B4ICYURAB,ICQ4T,B2B.-Modocc (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I apologize from the bottom of my heart, I forgot to add two caveats/reservations which I thought were supposed to be obvious:
 * 1. No character (including C/U or whatever) is allowed to appear twice. Without this reservation, you could have written also: icucicuc (infinitely), which is longer...
 * 2. A given word (including "before" or whatever) should be represented by one character only, or rather: a given chain of N words should be represented by a chain of N characters only. Without this reservation, you could have written also: "Incomprehensibilities" (i.e. one word represented by a chain of more than twenty characters instead of one character only), which is longer...
 * However, your new examples are lovely and even instructive, despite the reservations mentioned above. Cheers! HOTmag (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * B,ICU8AP2. Modocc (talk) 21:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Once a comma is allowed, I could add a comma in the original sentence: YIC,URAB
 * So let's assume a comma is excluded.
 * So, ICU8AP2 is as long as as the original YICURAB, but once 2 is added to the end of the original sentecne, it becomes longer... HOTmag (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok... :) ICQ4U8AP2. Modocc (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Also: ICQ4URAB2 Modocc (talk) 22:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A beekeeper's chain of twelve: I seek you nine to five for you ate our one bee. ICQ9254U8R1B. Modocc (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Màrius Serra's Verbalia has a section about such works. I can't see the text in Google Books, but I remembered enough to find an older work featuring this Andalusian piece:
 * SKDTDAK
 * SKDTDAK

TDCAYAPTC CKBCAYCKE YTCDYTOBDC
 * The book has examples in French.
 * --Error (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Dental fricatives
I personally can't tell the voiced (/ð/) and voiceless (/θ/) dental fricatives apart—they both sound alike to me. Is it possible for oblivious speakers to unknowingly "mispronounce" certain words by uttering them with the "wrong" dental fricatives without realizing that they have those sounds mixed up, or do we generally subconsciously use the right one most of the time? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oblivious speakers can mispronounce any words, like pronouncing origins as /ˈɔɹəndʒɪz/, or States as /ʃɝʃ/. I have no data on the frequency of accidental erroneous substitutions by native speakers, but I do not have the impression that getting /ð/and /θ/ mixed up is more common than making a /d/ – /t/ error. Note also that there is more to it than the voiceless–voiced contrast; see Pronunciation of English ⟨th⟩. --Lambiam 18:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * After going through Th (digraph) again, I came across this: "This unusual extension of the digraph to represent a voiced sound is caused by the fact that, in Old English, the sounds /θ/ and /ð/ stood in allophonic relationship to each other and so did not need to be rigorously distinguished in spelling. The letters ⟨þ⟩ and ⟨ð⟩ were used indiscriminately for both sounds, and when these were replaced by ⟨th⟩ in the 15th century, it was likewise used for both sounds." – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Distinguishing between the sound-values of the two letters (one writing the voiced sound and the other the voiceless sound) was a refinement of Icelandic / Old Norse writing. AnonMoos (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


 * MrPersonHumanGuy --English "function" words (this, that, there, then, they, the) generally begin with [ð], while lexical words (think, throttle, thalassocracy) begin with [θ]. There are also part of speech distinctions: wreath noun vs.wreathe verb.  I can't say if a native English speaker would notice one isolated word, but native speakers would definitely notice someone who only used one sound for both standard [ð] and [θ]... AnonMoos (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I hardly notice it when a non-native speaker pronounces the word "" like /dis/ or /zis/; I think I'd notice it much more if they used /θis/. And if they used /ðin/ for "", I'm not sure that I would immediately understand it. --Lambiam 10:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I guess you're a native English speaker, so your testimony about yourself has made me notice that the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ (which I personally do make) is probably not between phonemes but rather between allophones, i.e. it does not bear any semantic influence, as opposed to the distinction made in English between the sounds d/t (e.g. between "dip" and "tip") or between the sounds z/s (e.g. between "zeal" and "seal"), which does bear a semantic influence. However, /ð/ and /θ/ are not regular allophones, because the "correct" pronunciation of regular allophones, e.g. between the pronunciation of "the" in "the apple" and in "the man", is usually influenced by the phonetic environment (e.g. "apple/man" is considered to be the phonetic environment of "the" in the above examples because the "correct" pronunciaiton of "the" depends on whether the next word "apple/man" begins with a vowel or with a consonant), but the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ is never influenced by the phonetic environment. That's why I'm not quite sure whether the distinction made in English between /ð/ and /θ/ is really between allophones only rather than between phonemes. To put my question more practically: Is there any pair of words, bearing different meanings, but pronounced almost the same way - except for having the sound /ð/ in one word and the sound /θ/ in the other word? I think it's a very interesting question, which may influence your question as well. HOTmag (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)


 * We noticed it when our Portuguese tutor, discussing the use of the second person singular, pronounced "thy" as "thigh". 80.47.0.18 (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Excellent example. See below. HOTmag (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * How do you (=the OP) distinguish between thy and thigh? Do you really pronounce them the same way, although their meanings are different? HOTmag (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * If I say "thy thigh", they almost sound identical. The only difference I might notice is that one dental fricative is probably supposed to have a bit more of a hiss (if that correctly describes it) than the other. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Since you do notice the "difference" (as you call it), so you've received an answer to your question, from an unexpected direction... HOTmag (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In what part of the English-speaking world are "thy" and "thigh" pronounced the same way? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In no part of the English speaking world. The pair "thy-thigh" was presented by me in order to make the OP notice they do make a distinction between both fricative sounds, contrary to what they had claimed in the beginning of the thread. HOTmag (talk) 07:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * En-us-thy.ogg
 * En-us-thigh.ogg
 * Here are recordings of both, spoken by the same speaker from Silicon Valley. --Lambiam 10:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, non-native speaker here, but there's a potential problem with using thy as an example. The word isn't commonly used in contemporary English. When people encounter it, it's mostly in Early Modern English texts (Shakespeare for example), written before the Great Vowel Shift was complete. To make some rimes and word plays in such texts work (or simply to get the archaic feel), they have to be pronounced according to an earlier version of the English vowel system, with which the word thy could get associated. So, the vowel of thy could be different from the one in thigh, which is primarily associated with the contemporary vowel system. (When somebody above wrote “How do you distinguish between thy and thigh?”, I immediately thought: simple, the vowels are different.) PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry? Both "thy" and "thigh" are pronounced with /-aɪ/, according to Wiktionary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The "thy-thigh" question you've quoted at the end of your recent response, was not presented for the sake of non-native speakers of English, and even not for the sake of most of the native English speakers, but rather for the sake of the OP alone, who is (I'm pretty sure) a native English speaker who claimed they didn't distinguish between both fricatives. Anyway, regarding the question I've presented to them, what really matters is not the phonetic distinction between thy and thigh in Old English, but rather is how the OP pronounces those words in the OP's own pronunciation of contemporary English. HOTmag (talk) 13:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * HOTmag -- The two sounds were allophones in Old English, but would not be considered allophones in modern English according to any common or usual definition of the linguistic phoneme. But of course it's true that the contrast between the two sounds has a low "functional load" (as Martinet would say). AnonMoos (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

When I think about it, the difference may be easier to notice when it's the last sound in a word rather than the first. The "th" in breath (/brɛθ/) seems to have the so-called "hiss" thing I described earlier while the "th" in breathe (/bri:ð/) doesn't. I can also see how truth, which is supposed to sound like it rhymes with proof, (/truːθ/) would sound like it was spoken in a certain foreign accent if pronounced to sound like it rhymes with prove. (/truːð/) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Any person claiming they don't phonetically distinguish between /θ/ and /ð/, may ascribe the phonetic distinction between "breath" and "breathe", to the phonetic difference between the vowels alone - being: /ɛ/ in "breath" and /i:/ in "breathe", rather than to the phonetic difference between /θ/ and /ð/ - which is claimed to be unrecognized by that person. That's why I insisted on the thy-thigh example, because those words have the same vowel/diphthong (in contemporary English), so the phonetic distinction between them must be ascribed - by every native English speaker (including the OP) - to the phonetic difference between /θ/ and /ð/ alone. HOTmag (talk) 13:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

P.S. However, I still think certain words like their, there and they're (in which the dental fricative is at the beginning) could be pronounced either /ðɛər/ or /θɛər/ and still sound normal. (at least in comparison to /tɛər/, /zɛər/ or even /vɛər/, which might sound like how they're said in some non-Anglophone accents) My acceptance of th-interchangeability in those cases could be the reason I started this very thread in the first place. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * To me, whoever pronounces: (stay) "there" like: (stay) /θɛər/, is not different from whoever pronounces: (Silicon) "valley" like: (Silicon) /fæli:/. If you think /θɛər/ sounds normal (even when not whispered but uttered aloud), you "must" also think /fæli:/ sounds normal (even when not whispered but uttered aloud), from a symmetrical point of view. I'm not going to rule out any pronunciation, I just remind you of the price one should pay for consistency. Anyway, if you recognize the phonetic difference between /v/ and /f/ - because you want the words "van" and "fan" to be phonetically-distinguished from each other - since they are also semantically-distinguished from each other, then you must also recognize the phonetic difference between /ð/ and /θ/ - because you want the words "thy" and "thigh" to be phonetically-distinguished from each other - since they are also semantically-distinguished from each other. To sum up: your question about the difference between the fricatives /ð/ and /θ/, could also be asked about the difference between the fricatives /v/ and /f/, from a symmetrical point of view... HOTmag (talk) 13:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Re. the fan/van distinction: In a hypothetical world where both fan and van are spelt φan and someone were to utter "I'm your biggest van" or "get in the fan" out loud, an attentive listener might wonder whether the speaker is either struggling with their ph- sounds or is just trying to make random impromptu puns to lighten the mood. Luckily for us, both labiodental fricatives are represented with different letters, so it may not be so tricky for us to tell them apart. In any case, it's apparent to me that both voiced fricatives (ð/v) may be enunciated a bit longer than their voiceless "hissy" (θ/f) counterparts, especially when they're the last sound in a word. However, if someone were to utter refifal, the fife pun might be lost on the listener unless the relevant context is present. (in this case, "reφiφal" may apply to a retired fife player making a comeback) Likewise, if someone were to say "thou art on thigh own" out loud, I may not be able to register that as a leg pun unless they gestured towards one of their thighs. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 15:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)—18:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I decided to look up words with dental fricatives on Wiktionary and came across this pair of words: either (/ˈi.ðɚ/) ether (/ˈi.θɚ/) Even though I may consider either and ether to be homophones ([aɪ]ther notwithstanding) but not have and half, when I compare the recorded U.S. pronunciations, I can tell that /ð/ is quieter then /θ/. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting discovery, Cheers! So, for the time being we've got two pairs: thy-thigh, either-ether. However, I think the first pair is a little better, because "either" may also be pronounced with an initial diphthong (like that of "ice" and of "I") in the beginning. HOTmag (talk) 20:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Here's another pair of pairs: teeth (/tiːθ/) teethe (/tiːð/) | wreath (/ɹiːθ/) wreathe (/ɹiːð/) — Telling from these examples, /ð/ sounds like it could just be /θ/ with more emphasis. I also found out that the words thanks and scythe can be pronounced either way depending on one's dialect. Now I wonder what other words (besides the) this can generally be applied to. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 22:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I mentioned wreath noun vs.wreathe verb way up above. AnonMoos (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Which dialects would pronounce thanks with a /ð/? As a Swedish ESL speaker, it sounds very strange. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * According to Wiktionary, thanks can apparently be pronounced both ways in General American English. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * A discussion took place back in 2011, where a couple more examples and near-examples were cited. --Theurgist (talk) 05:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I'd like to know where (if anywhere) in "general American usage" that the "th" in "thanks" is pronounced like the "th" in "teethe". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * It's certainly not quasi-standard American English as I've known it, where there are some strangely altered forms, such as "congradulations", but I've never noticed hearing "dhanks"... AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * That apparently erroneous Wiktionary addition was made in November 2022, by a user named Soap, who's still active. Maybe it should be reverted, or at least the user questioned about it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Soap seems to be active on Wiktionary almost daily, I suppose someone could start a discussion. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 03:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I posed the question and got the reply (by someone else than Soap) that this is definitely used, giving a speaker allegedly (see en.everybodywiki.com/Luke_Ranieri) born and raised in rural Bucks County, Pennsylvania, as an example. --Lambiam 11:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The archive page Lambiam linked to won't exist until next month, so for everyone else's convenience until then, here's the currently correct link. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 11:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * But wait, there's more! Well, kind of: thus (/ˈðʌs/) thrust (/θɹʌst/) | though (/ðoʊ/) throw (/θɹoʊ/) | these (/ði:z/) thesis (/ˈθi:sɪs/) In my opinion, I consider pairs of words ending in -th to be the most helpful for identifying the dental fricatives and telling them apart from eachother. It's the difference between "Santa wreaths for sale" on a store sign and "Santa wreathes for sale" in a headline. (although when spoken out loud, wreathes may just sound like wreaths with a slight, barely-noticeable emphasis on itself; that's probably because the verb wreathe may not be as commonly-used as the noun wreath, so it may have to be emphasized for clarity anyway) However, as for dental fricatives in the beginning or middle of words, if those were switched up, they might not sound as strange to me as someone incorrectly stressing the words desert and permit or mixing up the pronunciations of the noun life and the adjective live. (although admittedly, pairs like file/vial and safer/savor might not sound so different after all) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 16:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, and that (/ˈðæt/) thatch (/θæt͡ʃ/) too. When those sounds are at the beginning or middle, the difference is this (/ðɪs/) thin (/ˈθɪn/). The word with is also an interesting case; even though width always ends with /θ/, the word with can also be pronounced both ways. According to Wiktionary, with is more likely to be pronounced /wɪð/ in the UK and /wɪθ/ in the US. The "th" in Lithuania is generally pronounced /θ/ but may sometimes be pronounced /ð/ in the UK. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)