Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 March 8

= March 8 =

Ligier?
What does it mean here: an English Ligier in the stately porch of the Grand Signor of Constantinople? Omidinist (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * For context, the quote is from Richard Hakluyt. See here for the relevant passage. As for the meaning of the word 'Ligier', it isn't entirely clear to me. I could guess, but it might be better to search further first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * According to Middle English Dictionary, a "ligier" could be a stone layer. I'm not sure if that makes sense in context – especially as I don't know what exact meaning of "porch" is implied here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * A little searching finds Hakluyt again using the word several times here. It appears to mean 'ambassador', or something similar. See this passage:


 * "...the worshipfull M. William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour unto Sultan Murad Can, the great Turke , with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres.


 * AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that certainly makes a lot more sense in context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Could the "stately porch" be the Sublime Porte? And "ligier" reminds me of "liege". --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * From the context of the original quote, that could very well be the porch in question. And see the Merriam-Webster definition of the word 'legate': "a usually official emissary". AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We have an article on William Harborne, who was the first English Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, appointed by Queen Elizabeth I. There can be no doubt that the "stately porch" was the Sublime Porte, where newly appointed legates presented their credentials. --Lambiam 15:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I found a book in which this passage is quoted as an example of Early Modern English, and the term is explained as follows:  --Lambiam 15:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. Omidinist (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * How would the word be pronounced? Like "lidger"? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A Google search yielded no clues, but I imagine that the final vowels would be pronounced as two syllables, like "courtier". Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * My first guess is /ˈliːʒeɪ/, assuming this was a loan from a now obsolete French word. (Ligier is not only a car company but also a French name: Guy Ligier, Pierre-Mathieu Ligier, Ligier Richier). Compare the pronunciation of atelier. However, brazier, also a French loan in the sense of a bowl for holding coal, is pronounced /ˈbɹeɪ.zjə(ɹ)/. --Lambiam 13:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the 16th century, but "ier" loan words in English are not usually pronounced in the French way; bombardier, brigadier, financier and grenadier are examples. Alansplodge (talk) 17:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * OED lists "ligier" under "ledger". "An ordinary or resident ambassador; also, a papal nuncio. Obsolete exc. Historical in form lieger." has Hakluyt as one of its supporting quotations "William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour vnto Sultan Murad Can..with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres." DuncanHill (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)