Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 May 18

= May 18 =

vowel length contrast
I speak some Italian, so am familiar with short and long (geminate) consonants; but I am not acquainted with any language that contrasts short and long vowels. Presumably such languages have shibboleths, sentences whose meanings are humorously changed when learners get vowel quantity wrong; can you point me to where I might hear examples? —Tamfang (talk) 19:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * A classic example is that in Latin malum with a long "a" vowel means "apple", while malum with short "a" means "evil thing". Not sure if it was used in jokes, but it may have influenced the Western European Christian idea that the fruit in the Garden of Eden was an apple.  (Jews in the eastern Mediterranean area usually assumed it was a fig...). AnonMoos (talk) 07:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Now I remember that religious satire site godhatesfigs.com, parodying Fred Phelps using actual Scripture citations. Except for the fig in Adam and Eve, there were several citations from that rather bizarre incident where Jesus sees a fig tree, that doesn't bear fruits since it's not in season, and gets so angry he commands a thunderbolt to incinerate it. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Our List of Latin phrases (M) has:
 * malum discordiae, "apple of discord" Alludes to the apple of Eris in the Judgement of Paris, the mythological cause of the Trojan War. It is also a pun based on the near-homonymous word malum (evil)... Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * One bad apple? DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of Uranus jokes. Alansplodge (talk) 12:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Now all I need is a recording of someone natively speaking Latin. —Tamfang (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Japanese has vowel length contrast – see Japanese phonology. I don't know if anyone deliberately uses it humorously; the examples given in that article suggest scope for such. It might be harder in Japanese though as vowel length is much more distinct. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 11:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In season 1 of Sailor Moon, in a next-episode-preview, Usagi (Sailor Moon) asks her cat, Luna, does she like skiing, which in Japanese is "suki sukii?" ("すきスキー?"). So, there's one sort-of example ^_^ 73.2.86.132 (talk) 09:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it's not "sukii suki?" ("スキーすき?") To me, it would sound more natural, although my knowledge of Japanese is limited... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Another language with vowel length is a variety of Chinese, Cantonese: see Cantonese phonology. Long vowels though are more distinct from short ones than e.g. Japanese as they're often realised differently, or not at all – the only finals with a fairly complete set of short and long pairs are those beginning /a/ and /a:/ – and can be analysed as just distinct sounds.
 * I am more familiar with Cantonese than Japanese but cannot think of any examples of wordlplay that involves changes in length. Instead it more often is based on the initial of a character, and the final (including any length) is fixed. 8 in Chinese is considered lucky as its sound 'baat' is like that for prosperity 'faat' – Chinese numerology. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * A few German words are distinguished by vowel length, which slightly confusingly often isn't marked on the vowel itself, but the following consonant (generally, a double consonant follows a short vowel). A well-known funny example is Massen (short /a/) and Maßen (long /a:/): "Ich trinke in Maßen" means "I drink in moderation" but "Ich trinke in Massen" means "I drink in great quantities". Smurrayinchester 14:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, that vowel length/ geminate consonant pairing is common in most Germanic languages outside of English, so it might not be that confusing. That ss vis-a-vis ß (often transcribed as ss) would change a word's meaning is quite notable, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I recall that long vowels in German might often be marked by an additional h, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 06:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)