Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 August 10

Wikipedia Underlining
Why are all my links on wikipedia, i.e. "random article" underlined? It happened before and I asked a random person then it went back to normal. Does anyone know what I need to do to get rid of the underlining? Or does it simply go away on it's own? It's bugging the heck out of me. b_cubed 20:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you go to 'my preferences', under Misc there's a drop-box that says "Underline links:", with the options being "Never", "Always", and "Browser Default". Simply change as required! Z iggurat 20:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * thanks a ton =) b_cubed 20:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is also a bug for some Firefox users that randomly displays a page with underlines. It's usually fixed by reloading the cache. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  21:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not just Firefox users. I use IE and once a month or so all the wikilinks appear underlined for a few hours. Anchoress 21:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The underlined links sense their demise and they're not happy about it! freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  19:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Rules Governing Petitions
I have a teenage son who, along with his friends, are wanting to get together a petition for a skate park here in our town in Hunt County, Texas. Let me say that the only thing I know about this type of petition is that they'll need a certain amount of signatures. That's all I know. Could you please help us with information for this issue. We have been to and called the city offices in the area, but the information we have been given is not sufficient, I believe. We need to know all the particulars involved in the petition. The laws, rules, age limits for petition signers, number of signatures needed, etc. We want to do this the right and legal way. If they are to put the work into the petition, it needs to be done the right way the first time. We appreciate any help that you can give us. God Bless.


 * First of all, as stated at the top of this page, nothing said here replaces a lawyer. That said, I don't think that there are any laws, rules, age limits, or miminum amount of signatures. If there was a law that the petition did something (to get put on a ballat, or have a recall election) then there are different rules regarding those petitions.  If you are just making a petition so the goverement will know how you feel it doesn't really matter so long as the petitioner are citizens (voting age shouldn't matter).  Granted no one would care what a group of 50 10-year-old think but will care about 20,000 voting age people. see Petition and First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Jon513 01:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was writing a very similar response, but there was an edit conflict with Jon513 who has put it very well. Almost certainly, a petition of the type you mention is never going to be a binding legal document. Whether it has 5 signatures or 50,000, the petitionee is under no obligation to fulfill the request, they are merely indicitive of a level of public support for a proposal. To be frank, a lot of these petitions are generally pretty ineffective in bringing about change, and for the most part, all they are good for is making the petitioner and signatories feel better about themselves for "doing something".
 * Might I suggest that instead of organising a petition, that you take more proactive steps towards getting a skate park built. Sign up volunteers to help design and build the park, write or commission a report on how the park would be beneficial to your community, contact local businesses for sponsorship. It's going to be hard work, but the local council is more likely to acceed to your request and grant some land and resources to the project if you can show them that people in the area feel strongly enough about it to donate more than their signature. Good luck! --Canley 05:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The only thing I see missing from the above answers is try and get some local or state politicians on board. After the teenagers may not be able to vote now but they will be able to in the future. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 11:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "I'd like to help you son, but you're too young to vote." StuRat 16:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In my previous location, the local youth took what might have been considered a bit of a long route to getting a skate park built, but one that paid off. A petition is probably not the best way to start, but I'd suggest, along with some of the comments above, that the first step should be to go to the city council with a group of responsible young people and have them do a presentation explaining the benefits of having a park and the potential partnerships that could be explored to make it financially feasible. The drive I'm familiar with involved formation of a registered non-profit society that fundraised literally hundreds of thousands of dollars towards the park, which left the city to provide the plot of land and a minimal amount of funding to finish it off. So, my suggestion: get a grass-roots group of youth and adults together; develop a rudimentary business plan for the park; start exploring the options for creating a society; explore fundraising opportunities; and take the lot to the council - letting the youth do the talking - to explain what you'd like to do and how it could work for both the skaters and the city. Good luck with it! Tony Fox (arf!) 20:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was blocked from attempting to begin drafting an article...
I'm new to wikipedia. I registered, logged-on and followed the instruction but got a message saying I was blocked, listing an IP number that bore no resemblance to mine and giving the reason 'gonzo.'

I assume this is some sort of hacking activity. Is there any way to work around it?


 * Actually, it's probably due to the fact that you appear to be using an AOL account, which has problems when interacting with Wikipedia regarding the way it assigns IP numbers. See Advice to AOL users for ways to circumvent this. Z iggurat 03:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Timothy Treadwell(Grizzly Man) Death Audio
Does anyone anywhere know where you could listen to a clip or the whole audio of Timothy Treadwells death? I know it sounds morbid but after watching the film and looking on the discussion boards it seems like a lot of people want to hear this. Almost like a tribute to the man's final moments. Anyone heard it? Anyone know ANYWHERE to find it.


 * In the movie it seemed that only the ex-girlfriend and the police had access to it. I haven't heard of anyone releasing it.Nowimnthing 12:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If it exists, the people at ogrish.com probably have it. --Zambaccian 20:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you scroll down to the bottom of this page (to the FAQ), you'll see:
 * ''Frequently Asked Questions
 * - Have you listened to the 6 minute audio tape? - No, I was able to piece together the transcript from hundreds of hours of taped and written interviews from nearly all of the investigators, and because individuals often remember hearing things somewhat differently I only included what could be confirmed from at least two sources.
 * - Have you listened to the supposedly "real death audio" that is floating around on the internet, and is it real? - I have heard it and no it is not real but a fake or spoof. Jewel Palovak still holds the real tape and has no plans to release it. I hope that she never does.''
 * Anchoress 20:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Horizontal _____?
What's it called if you run, say, a peanut butter factory and you buy out your competetor peanut butter makers instead of buying peanut farms and distribution companies? Horizontal something.

And is that the same as, say, owning a small gas station in a very small town and buying out profitable businesses in that town that have nothing to do with your original enterprise, like a bowling alley and a video rental store? --Demonesque 08:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's called horizontal acquisition if it's the same industry. --Canley 09:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Take a look at horizontal integration and horizontal monopoly. By the way, WP:QI is a very useful tool for this sort of query.--Shantavira 09:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks. Bookmarked it. Does anyone know if buying unrelated enterprises in a certain geographical region or otherwise captive consumer area (Like an airport) has a name? --Demonesque 09:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds a bit like Diversification. DirkvdM 10:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Logic Disiplines
I remember once hearing about the 4 disiplines of logic, but i cant remember anything else, is there anyone that can aid me? Joneleth 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm, google pulls up at :

Overall, we can thus distinguish four notions of logic: * (L1) the mathematical study of artificial formal languages * (L2) the study of formally valid inferences and logical consequence * (L3) the study of logical truths * (L4) the study of the general features, or form, of judgements Not sure if this was where you were heading. Our article on Logic talks about up to four rival conceptions of logic; but these don't sound like disciplines. Let us know if google's find rings any bells. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Well I dont remember exactly what the disciplines was but i remember they had distinctive greek names. Joneleth 16:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Some Greek names that come to mind are epistemology, ontology, metaphysics, and deontology. But are these logic? It's more philosophy. --Lambiam Talk 21:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bloodstaion pattern analysis
Anyone know where I can get some good pictures of realistic blood spatter? I've been to, but I can't find any others. ¡70.56.173.52 15:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)!
 * I think you should try some forensic science books. I have one creatively called "Forensic Science" by James Nordby, which has some, but focusses on other areas too. If you think buying is too expensive, try a academic library. - Mgm|(talk) 21:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Knock on wood?
There was a song by the mighty mighty bostones, i think, and it went I've never had to Knock on wood But i know someone who has had to Knock on wood Sometimes i wonder if i could Knock on wood

Does any one know what it was called, it was not Knock on wood. thanks ooo, and if you could tell me what album it was on too, that would be great.


 * Type the lyrics (or suitable "key words" from the lyrics) into http://www.google.com/ &mdash; you may want to type "The Impression That I Get" into google next (with the quotes). Weregerbil 15:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

metallica
what year did cliff burton die? (the bassist who died in a bus accident) just wondering
 * Type Cliff Burton to the search box at the left of this page, then press "Go". Weregerbil 15:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * September 27, 1986. Jon513 20:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 27 September 1986 indeed. --Proficient 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

thank you jon513 and proficient, appreciate it

sad that it happened though, isnt it? hey, but now they're on iTunes, that makes it all better, right?:)
 * I'm sure that Cliff Burton would have been pleased to know that his name will be remembered by users of iTunes. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  21:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Russian Song
Does anyone know anything about a Russian Song called "Атаз - Любэ", or if there's anywhere it would be possible to listen to a clip of it? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.


 * There is a band Любэ that has a song Атас ("Watch out!") and an album with the same name. See further Lubeh. You can download it from mp3hotfly, presumably after payment. --Lambiam Talk 22:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks!

Most famous person
Who, roughly, would you say is the most famous living or dead person in the world ever? I've always wanted to know lol thanks for any help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.226.82 (talk • contribs)


 * I would guess Jesus, although John Lennon famously claimed The Beatles were more famous than Him.--Shantavira 18:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, John Lennon said the Beatles were more popular than Jesus, which is slightly different. --LarryMac 20:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Or maybe Ghandi, or Mao Tse Tung. There are a lot more people in India or China than Europe and the USA. Notinasnaid 18:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, collectively, the US and Europe have a population comparable to either India or China. If you include Russia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, South America, etc., (all the countries where the majority of the population is of European descent), then the populations may well be higher than both China and India. StuRat 21:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While you're technically correct using your criteria, you have to stretch the definition of "European descended" so thin that it becomes meaningless. Most Central/South Americans don't believe they're Europeans.  A lot of Filipinos believe they're European descended but in actuality only around 1% of the population is.  The U.S. has a significant amount of population that's not "European descended".  You might as well consider India "European descended" (or really Europe "India descended" which is more correct) using your criteria.  You're also comparing one country with one "race" (which isn't really a race) which is silly.  ColourBurst 18:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with including countries on the other side which are mostly Chinese descendants (like Taiwan) or Indian descendants (Sri Lanka ?). StuRat 21:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Indian descendants include all of Europe (and by extension all of the Americas)? Or that everybody's from Africa (if you consider the single region hypothesis).  Native Americans came from Asia (so they get to claim a fair bit of it as well).  That's what I mean by "meaningless", your race theory comes from a flawed understanding of "race".  The borders you draw up are totally arbitrary.  You're better off counting number of adherents of each religion, which is a far better way to measure (but Christianity wins over Buddhism there.  Islam is #2.)  ColourBurst 05:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well how to define being the most famous. Having (at this moment) the most people on earth that have at least heard of you (but what is having heard of?). I have never been in India in China, but if for instance every kid in China who hears of Mao, also somehow hears of Jesus, Jesus might very well be the most famous (if we allow dead people) person. About the living, maybe a president of the USA (Bush, Clinton,...) Evilbu 20:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Muhammed. Who hasn't heard of him. Or even the dalai lama, as having been reincarnated continuously since 1391, probably has had a lot more scope for affecting people. Philc  TECI 22:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's a tossup between the Buddha and Jesus. Jesus is known to all Christians and all Muslims, and he's been around for - twice as long - as Muhammed? Sorry, my Islamic history is weak. But - the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) has been around for about 500 years longer than Jesus, so we have to count not only all the people around today who know of him (that's practically everyone in the world), but all the people who had known of him for the hundreds of years he's been famous. To contrast that, Jesus didn't become world famous until about 500 years ago (depending on your definition of the world. I guess if the old world = 'the world', he's been famous longer than that).Anchoress 22:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually scratch that, it's probably Moses rather than Jesus. Pretty much every Christian and Muslim who's heard of Jesus has also heard of Moses, plus 4000 years worth of Jews (and a few ancient Egyptians, too). Anchoress 22:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 4000 years of Jews doesn't amount to much if you consider that even now there are only just over 10 million of them. DirkvdM 05:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes it would, as far as tipping the scale in favour of Moses over Jesus.--Anchoress 05:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that being known around, say, 1000 b.c. should be a very important factor, because the world population at that time was probably only a few percent of what it is now; by far the most people who ever lived, lived in the 20th century. David Sneek 22:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If that were all we were considering I would agree with you, but there's no question that the aggregate population over a further five hundred or thousand years is significant, even if the head count in a particular year is not. Anchoress 23:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * About 7% of all the people who have ever lived are alive right now. That leaves 93% of the people dead.  No wonder I keep running into ghosts on my way to the toilet. :-) StuRat 23:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Everybody knows themselves (well almost everybody) MeltBanana  23:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So that would make me the most famous. DirkvdM 05:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The most infamous, perhaps. :-) StuRat 17:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Most famous' doesn't refer to merely knowing someone. Loads of people know Hitler, but is he famous? Does 'famous' include 'infamous'? (not sure) Both Mohammed and Jesus have followers and antagonists, but everybody loves Buddha, right? Hell, even atheists do.
 * Anyway, let's quantify this.
 * China = 1.3 billion.
 * India = 1.1 billion.
 * Europe = 700 million.
 * USA = 300 million.
 * South America = 370 million.


 * Africa is a mixed bag. So if we exclude that, predominantly western countries together have just a bit more people than China alone. Combine China with India and some 2.4 billion people live in close proximity to Buddhism (not entirely sure about that). The most populous muslim country (Indonesia) has 'only' 222 million inhabitants. So Buddha is right now the best known and the most loved and he has a much longer history. So if these are the choices (and I can't think of anyone else), it's Buddha hands down. DirkvdM 05:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you include Eastern Europe/Russia in your Europe population ? How about the rest of the Americas, like Canada, Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean.  How about Australia and New Zealand ?  Add all those up and any other majority European nations I forgot. StuRat 06:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you guys included South America because they're majority Christian, than that would be more believable than saying they're majority European (They don't identify as such.) If you're going to include a list of all Christian countries, you're also going to have to include a list of all Buddhist countries (which includes Japan, Korea, Thailand, probably Vietnam too etc).  ColourBurst 18:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't really care if they "self-identify" themselves as Martians, most South Americans are, in full or in part, of European descent, particularly from Spain and Portugal. Perhaps they haven't noticed that they still speak Spanish or Portuguese, practice the same religion (Catholicism), have the same names, and are culturally similar, to their nations of origin. StuRat 21:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You all seem to be focusing on religious figures. I can see why, since most people are associated with a religion or have heard of a religion, but you can't forget the names that pop up on TV every day now...


 * George Bush
 * Tony Blair
 * Osama bin Laden


 * etc... But I do see what you mean, and I do agree. Just because people don't believe in a certain religious figure doesn't mean they haven't heard of them. I don't "believe" in Brad Pitt, but I have heard of him, right? If I were an atheist (I'm not), I would have heard of Jesus, Mohammed, Moses and Buddha. So those are probably the four most famous people. I am Catholic, and I have heard of all of those people. That makes all of them equally famous. Just some food for thought.  Viva  La   V  i  e   Boheme! 


 * The point was that those people have been famous for a very long time. The ones you mention will have been largely forgotten about in a century or so. So it's better to look at the 'oldies'. Actors and other artists are easily forgotten and I bet there are whole continents where Rembrandt and Dali are barely known. For political leaders, what about Churchill, Lenin, Washington or Julius Caesar. Or what about political thinkers, like Karl Marx? Scientists perhaps? Newton? I think Confucius will be more widely known. But religious prophets are probably the most widely known, so I would still go for Buddha. DirkvdM 10:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * All this has focused on dead people. What about the living? That rules out any prophets afaik. And the fame of artists and sportspeople is too shortlived. So it would probably be a political figure. One that has been around for a long time. What about Fidel Castro? He is known pretty much around the world, I assume. DirkvdM 11:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's too bad Ronald Reagan is dead, if only because if he were alive he'd definitely win. Mickey Rooney and Elizabeth Taylor are still alive, I'm sure most of the world knows of them, and if you add all the people who've died since they got famous that would be a lot.Anchoress 11:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mickey Rooney? I've heard of the name, but I can't even get an image of him in my head. DirkvdM 07:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Walt Disney? hotclaws**==(82.138.214.1 13:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC))


 * Is dead. I have to take back what I said before about the fame of sports people being too short lived. Pelé and Johan Cruijff will still be quite known (even in the US I imagine). I once heard that if you go deep into the Amazon jungle and say you're Dutch, that doesn't mean anything to them, but if you say you're a fellow countryman of Cruijff you get an instant enthousiastic reaction. DirkvdM 07:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised nobody has mentioned God/god. Or how about the man on the moon? freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  21:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way friends, more than 1/3 of indians are muslims.  FOZ 

Looking to get my money back!
I wasn't completely satisfied with a product. Are there complaint templates available that I can use to get my money back? How often do people get cash back for complaining?


 * No need for a template, just write them a letter, call them, or send an e-mail. Most companies opt to send you coupons for free or cheap products rather than giving back cash, as that prevents people from scamming them for a profit.  I've been quite successful at getting coupons, but it's rarely worth your time unless it's quite a valuable product, especially if they make you send back the unused portion.  It's generally a better bet to return it to the store you bought it from, whenever possible. StuRat 21:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually the first question is - where are you? --Charlesknight 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's assume Texas, say. The next question is: what kind of product was it? A burrito? A used car? In any case, the short answer is: Most likely not, except perhaps for specific companies or specific kinds of complaints. Usually I just go back to the store with the product and express my complaint, but that may be hard if it is a dead parrot, or you ate it, or bought it from an online store. --Lambiam Talk 21:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Try to buy products with the "full refund if not entirely satisfied" tag on them. Especially with food where you've eaten the evidence. There are statutory rights which will obviously vary according to location (contact you local consumer association) but a lot depends on the company. When I was little, I once complained about some chocolate and got about fifty bars and a toy panda in return so it can work. Jameswilson 22:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You didn't like the chocolate, so they gave you 50 bars of the stuff? Was that a company of sadists with an overproduction? DirkvdM 05:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess I'm just worried that my complaints will be lost in some endless beaurocracy. What I was thinking about recently was an Aiwa stereo I've had for 7 years. The CD player only works for one of my CD's (retail CD's, not burned)...think I could get something out of them?


 * Given that you've had it for seven years, it's highly unlikely. Here in NZ, for example, you'd have no chance. Z iggurat 23:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No chance in the UK either. Seven years is more than you can expect these things to last really. Jameswilson 00:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If your 7-year-old CD player refuses to play some CDs, the first thing to try is to clean the pickup lens with a soft cloth. Unless the CDs have some kind of "copy protection", in which case you should return them to the store and make a fuss.  —Blotwell 09:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Most places give you 90 days to bitch about...er...return the product. Some give you thiry.  Some give you zero. Always good to read the fine print.  --69.138.61.168 06:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

American companies in China
Where can I find information about companies domiciled in the U.S.A. that are doing business, or planning to do business, in China?


 * That would be just about all of them. Walmart is doing quite well in shipping American jobs to China, with the approval of Congress and the President. StuRat 21:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why are they "American jobs"? You think Americans are inherently more deserving of a job?  I'm just curious. If you had contested jobs moving to China on other grounds, such as imbalance of laws of labour organization or abuse of human rights, then that would be a better argument.  This is because the essentially the same arguments were applied against the Japanese when their auto industry was booming rapidly, to the point of people getting away with murder, but the Japanese actually churned out better products.  ColourBurst 17:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They are, or were, "American jobs", because Americans had them, that's all the phrase means. As for why the jobs are going to China, that includes an undervalued yuan, unfair trade practices, government subsidies for Chinese companies, copyright violations by China, etc.  As for why the US gov doesn't stop it, that is due to the unholy alliance of companies like Walmart with the Chinese gov, since Walmart benefits and can lobby the US gov and get them to do what they want.  As for Japan, the US economy withstood that assault by bringing Japan up to a comparable level to the US economically, which was possible due to the size of Japan.  However, the US economy is incapable of bringing China up to it's economic level, due to China's size.  The only way for the two economies to be equal is if the US economy collapses. StuRat 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The thing is, you were calling the Japanese economic boom an "assault" on America. That's a tad paranoid, don't you think?  And I believe at the time when the complaints of the Japanese in the auto industry was the largest, Japan was already at comparable level to the U.S. economically.  The fact is that complaints about Japanese jobs had nothing to do with cheap Japanese labour.  Even now, I believe that Japanese auto companies make more cars in the U.S. than U.S. companies do (I think I'd have to dig up some statistics on it, but it should be true), however Americans still have the perception that Japanese cars are "bad" in some way.  This has nothing to do with rationality.  ColourBurst 06:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, the Japanese had a comparative advantage due to low labor costs. That ended when they achieved approximate wage parity with the US, then Japan went into a long recession, from which they are only now emerging.  I'd say Japanese cars are roughly comparable to US cars.  While Japanese cars do have slightly higher quality, they also offer less for the same amount of money, with more cost-added options required to get a car on par with the equipment level of a US car.  And if you don't like the word "assault", what would you prefer ?  "Challenge" ? StuRat 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, because the Americans all can drive to China to do their grocery shopping. --GunnarRene 18:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, but they can drive a Chinese made car to a Chinese owned store and buy Chinese produced food, at least until they send all their money to China, then they can just starve to death. StuRat 21:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone needs a course in economics. --Zambaccian 20:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Already took one. StuRat 01:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Pull-up bar
Where can I buy a pull-up bar? EDIT: In Spain/the US? not on-line, please. Thanks in advance ;)


 * Depends where you are. Z iggurat 23:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably some sporting goods store. Wizrdwarts (T|C|E) 01:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A hardware store. Buy some strong plumbing pipe that is as long as the with of a corridor. Make notches in two pieces of wood and attach them to the walls. Hang in the bar and start pulling. I did that once - I always try to go for the simplest solution. DirkvdM 05:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all.