Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 April 26

= April 26 =

The Speed of a Canal Boat
Hello Wikipedians.

This summer I am planning on hiring a canal boat and sailing (is that the correct term?) it from my home in Birmingham to Bristol and back. Upon having a brief search around the Internets, it seems that most of the companies that hire out do so by the week.

However, I have absolutely no idea a voyage from Brum to Brizzle would take! I have seen canal boats in action, and they do not seem to be the quickest of vehicles. But really, I have little comprehension of the timescales involved in traversing the country. So, if Wikipedia would be so kind as to inform me, how fast can your standard canal barge travel, and how long would it then take me to get to my destination and back.

Thank you, 194.80.32.12 23:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you know which route you wish to take (see here for a guide) you can cross-reference the route with Jim Shead's list of cruising times for different canals. Rockpock  e  t  01:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not a matter of how fast the boat will go - it's all to do with the speed limits they post all over the canals. A significant number of lock gates will slow you down no end too - especially if there is a long line of inexperienced people trying to get through ahead of you.  But ask the people you rent from - they'll have a really solid idea of how far you can realistically go in the time available. Stehttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.pngveBaker 02:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't "sail" a narrowboat - you are boating or cruising. The speed limit on British inland waterways is 4mph, but the distance you actually travel in one day will be determined by factors such as locks and tunnels on your route, weather conditions, whether you are sharing the skippering with anyone else, how experienced your crew are, and, most importantly, how hard you want to "work" on your holiday. If you are continually worrying about making a certain distance before it gets dark (cruising after dark has dangers and most hire boats companies do not allow it) then you will not enjoy your holiday. If you are making your crew get up early and miss meal breaks then they will not thank you either. Definitely ask a local hire company for advice. For general information on boat handling and safety, British Waterways publish a useful Boater's Handbook. Gandalf61 08:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Suspect online transaction
I just listed a laptop on craigslist and have someone interested by I'm suspicious for several reasons. First, my price wasn't very competitive. Second, this was a local, Illinois listing, but the buyer wants it shipped to Nigeria. Third, her email comes from Yahoo mail and Yahoo says her message came from an IP in California; that means her email went from Nigeria to California to Illinois. Fourth, though I hate to stereotype, I've heard a lot of online scams coming from Nigeria. However, she agrees to pay me via paypal before I let the computer leave my hands, so I'm safe right? It feels like one of those 'too good to be true' situations. I'm not versed in online commerce, so I'm not sure what to think. --Ephilei 01:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, you're not safe. Please read Craigs List's scam page. And if you google "PayPal scam nigeria" you can see how secure PayPal is for these sorts of things. If it's too good to be true then don't do it. --24.147.86.187 01:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you mean "how insecure paypal is"? --Ephilei 02:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The most common scam of this kind is that they overpay - ask you to send them the balance - then the original payment bounces. It's hard to see how that could happen with paypal though. Paypal won't give you the money until the cheque has cleared - so as long as they pay the exact correct amount and you make really, REALLY sure you have the money in hand - then it's hard to see how they can be scamming you. I guess the other possibility is that they may ask you for all manner of personal information from you - and use that to do some variety of identity theft. But so long as you tell them only the barest minimum and you have the money in hand before you ship it - I don't see a problem with doing this. Don't forget to erase all of your personal data from the hard drive before you ship it - you'll want to use one of those data 'scrubbers' to prevent a potential bad guy from extracting credit card numbers using an 'un-delete' tool. SteveBaker 02:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Right. I've waiting until I'm absolutely certain the money's in my account before shipping anything. After this conversation, I may even call Paypal to doublecheck and record the call. The laptop is a macbook and I'm using the OS X 35 pass erase process. It takes 18 hours to complete, so the hard drive should be 60GB of pure zeroes. --Ephilei 02:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I would be extremely leery of this proposition. While there is certainly a chance it is a legitimate offer, the "too good to be true" rule is a fairly safe one in relation to online transactions. If you do go ahead beware of the PayPal scam where you are sent a fake confirmation e-mail purportedly from PayPal telling you the payment has been transfered to your account. Another possiblity is that you will be paid with a hacked/compromised PayPal account, which could lead to all kinds of hassle after the actual account owner notices the unauthorized payment. Personally, I wouldn't touch this offer...WP:AGF does not apply to Nigeria, your noble desire to avoid stereotyping notwithstanding. Azi Like a Fox 09:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nigeria is famous for their online scammers - all the most entertaining spam comes from there (unlike this BBSpot parody :-) One Nigerian official said that scams have "become very popular in Nigeria." But don't worry - I don't think they can scam you (not when you've got the money safe via PayPal), but they may be using a stolen credit card number... --h2g2bob 09:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I fear that we may be stereotyping persons from an entire nation, which would be a violation of WP:BLP. There are doubtless some honest consumers in Nigeria who really want to buy used computers. That said, there are probably ways to cheat a seller even when payment is by Paypal. Perhaps the purchaser could deny receiving the merchandise, or substitute a defective computer for the original and demand his money back, or use a guarantee feature in Paypal to get his money back by claiming that you somehow comitted fraud, not to mention somehow getting your information for ID theft purposes. For an account of someone turning the tables and scamming the scammer, see . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edison (talk • contribs) 16:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Say what you want about stereotyping but this isn't an article so policies don't matter. That would be like if someone called you a dirty name in traffic and you asked them for a reference. Recury 17:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, policies do matter out of articlespace, WP:BLP in particular: "Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page". Though I don't think stereotyping violates BLP and I do like your analogy. Rockpock  e  t  18:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Cowslip Poisoning Potential
I'm getting somewhat contradictory information about cowslips on-line. You can eat the greens, but the flowers are poisonous. And maybe you don't want to eat the greens taken from a flowering plant. Although this is difficult, because they bloom about two minutes after they emerge. I do know the raw leaves of a flowering plant made my mouth feel funny. What's the deal? Mothperson cocoon 02:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My guess is the confusion arises from the fact that their are two varieties of flower known as "Cowslip". One is poisonous, the other isn't. Caltha palustris is an irritant, while Primula veris is used medicinally. gorffy 04:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Aha! A line to pursue.  Thank you very much. Mothperson cocoon 11:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. As a side note, It'd probably be a good idea to check with someone who knows plants, like a botanist or even a doctor, before eating wild flowers. gorffy 18:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hee hee. Tell that to generations of Americans who have been eating Caltha palustris for generations.  What were they thinking? I'm going to find out.  Mothperson cocoon 23:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi ... Problem with page.
Hi the page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet#Khazi

Has been hacked by someone. I thought you should know. It says I can fix it myself but I don’t really care that much. Its your problem, not mine (Sorry if that sounds short, but I have spent 5 mins trying to navigate to a page that didn’t 'pass the buck' and I'm starting to get annoyed.

The entry within the page has the paragraph:

Crapper The Crapper another term in general use, along with the word 'crap' meaning excrement. Crapper is the name of one Thomas Crapper who is mistakenly associated with the invention of the modern flush toilet. He did have several patents related to plumbing, but the word "crap" predates him. Also crappity crap crap is fuck.

Its this last sentence that is obviously incorrect.

"Also crappity crap crap is fuck." is obviously a site hack.

Thought you should know. If this is not the page to tell you ... sorry. If you want me to put it in the correct place, don’t use links that link you to explanations and further links. It ends up circular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.60.161.49 (talk) 08:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Fixed - X201 09:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As wikipedia can be edited by anyone, someone just added that text. Normally this sort of thing is noticed and put right quickly - often in under a minute. See Vandalism. --h2g2bob 09:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that is odd. A person can't be bothered to fix the article, but does have the time to come here and write this long explanation? Hmmm... Clarityfiend 14:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's odd at all. If, for instance, they're used to (trying) to fix errors in, say, IMDb (which is a royal pain), doing the equivalent of posting a blog comment would seem like way less work. The original poster may not know that removing a line of vandalism is as easy as posting here. Anchoress 17:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Telepathic internet article
I recently submitted an article entitled "Telepathic Internet", which has been filed in the "articles for deletion" category. I have now re-written the introductory paragraphs as promised, removing the magazine-article spam.

I recognise that the subject of this article is not what most people would describe as mainstream science. I acknowledge that it may be seen as rather esoteric or spiritual for most people.

My intention in writing this article is (metaphorically speaking) to plant a seed. I would appreciate it if a place could be found for the article other than the deletion file (articles for deletion). I reccognise that it may not get a lot of use immediately, but if left to germinate and be discovered by web-browsing spiritualists, it could grow into something wonderful in a few years time.

I can reassure all concerned that I currently have no plans to submit further articles. I look forward to seeing this article off the deletion list. I can be contacted at (email address redacted to prevent spam) for one-to-one discussion on this matter.

Many Thanks, (\0/) Arthur  (\0/) /_\ Phillipson /_\ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arthur Phillipson (talk • contribs) 09:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The problem with your article is that it is on a subject that may not be considered notable. Additionally, it doesn't contain any references to previously published information.  For those reasons, I'm afraid that your article is likely to be deleted.  In any event, the proper place to argue its case is not here, but the article's deletion page. --Richardrj talkemail 09:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The article certainly doesn't reach any of Wikipedia quality standards - I would certainly vote for a speedy deletion. The trouble is that it doesn't approach the subject from a neutral point of view - where are the views of people saying that this is a load of nonsense? Where are the references showing that you didn't just think this up by yourself?  Wikipedia has lots of carefully thought out rules about this kind of fringe subject - and you aren't meeting any of them.  Wikipedia isn't a place for you to publicise crazy ideas like this one in the hope that in so doing you'll get them publicity and thereby allow them to "germinate".   This is an encyclopedia - whose job it is solely to document what is real - and what can be verified by books, magazine articles, etc.   So this article has to go - and I'm heading over to the AfD page to vote against it. SteveBaker 12:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Arthur, but please don't take any of this personally. All it means is that wikipedia isn't the right home for your article, just like any website about spirituality wouldn't be the right place to host our feature article on Michael Woodruff, which is a fine example of an article wikipedia is suitable for. Vespine 22:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I have the solution for you, just put the article under your own namespace, as User:Arthur_Phillipson/Telepathic_internet, and nobody is likely to try to delete it. StuRat 05:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope. If it's not related to the Wikipedia, someone will most likely put it up for WP:MfD. Or, if it was already AfD'd, it would be speedyable. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 05:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Strange car
Can any of you help me? I have recently seen a car I didn't recognise, and I don't have enough info on the brand or the model to do a good search. It is a sports cabrio with an extremely low front window (about 20 cm high), two seater, no top, no rollbars, engine in the back, rounded (not "edgy") design, a bit reminiscent of (a heavier version of) the Fiat Barchetta. I haven't seen the front very well, on the side it had either "Spyker" or "Spyder" in tiny metal letters (but it doesn't look like any Spyker I could find info on, so I suppose it's "Spyder", and it isn't the Renault Spyder). It looked like a fairly recent car, not an oldtimer at all. The most recognisable element (apart from the front window) is probably the back: it had a square cooling grille, and behind it eleven circular holes (with a very rough estimate diamter of 10 cm each?), ordered like this:
 * O O O O O O
 * _O O O O O

I haven't seen any indication of brand, model, ... I hope this description rings a bell with someone! Fram 11:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Could it be a Porsche 550, better known as a Porsche Spyder? It fits every bit of your description except for the circular holes (although by "behind the grille", I understand this as meaning "on the body between the grilles and the roof". If you mean "under the grilles", my mistake. I don't know what the inside of a Spyder cooling grille looks like). Laïka  11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is that Spyder is a common word meaning any low, convertible car. You may want to look at the list of cars on that page and see if any of them fit the car you saw. Laïka  12:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * While the Porsche 550 comes close, there are differences: the car I see looked a lot more modern (1990s or 2000s), didn't have a head "bump" (the elongated support behind the driver's head), had a cooling grille in one part (550 is in two parts), and of course had the 11 holes between the cooling grille and the rear of the car (not between the seats and the grille). But the general feeling of the car is similar,as if someone has tried to make a modern 550. Thanks for the replis so far anyway! Fram 12:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about cars, but I think Alfa Romeo produced a Spyder/spider model. The host of a TV show about Italy drove around the country in it... the car was utterly gorgeous. --Dweller 15:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good old Wikipedia. I found the article at Alfa Romeo Spider. Could be that it's not what you're looking for, but it's a laaaarvly motah! --Dweller 15:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What style headlights does the car have? Did it have 2 circles? 2 oval shapes, 4 circles/4 other shapes etc.? I tend to find headlights on modern cars are one of the more distinctive parts. From what you have said so far it could be a tvr chimeara though i've not seen any coming with 'spyker' written on it. Alternatively if it is was quite expensive looking it could be one of those dutch ones (koenigsegg) without its roof on but they are very distinctive and pretty darn rare too! What country did you see it in (that might help also)? ny156uk 16:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You could try this --ChesterMarcol 16:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the replies! Definitely not an Alfa Spider (the old one they made for twenty years or so or the new one), it was more ... cat-like? A bit more aggressive, but not so extreme by far as the Koenigsegg. The TVR has similar lines, but the rear was much more distinctive and the front window was definitely lower. The Porsche 550, despite being an oldtimer, still comes closest. I've checked some sites with pics and some brands of sports cars, but I can't find it, so either I have a very bad memory, or it is some small manufacturer (just the body work on an existing chassis or so). Oh well, it was worth a shot! Fram 20:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Page Numbering Conventions
Hello, I am looking for different page numbering conventions that may be used in a technical catalog. Where can I find specifics for this type of numbering: 1-1.1.1a, etc. Thank you for your help. 70.90.19.226


 * I'm not aware that page numbering schemes have names. Have a look at the various fields supplied by Microsoft word for section numbering. Section numnbering is more likely to have named schemes. One appears to be "legal" numbering. -- SGBailey 21:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Treasure
1. Did pirates really bury thier treasure? 2. Has any every been found 3. Does anyone look for them? 4. Man has been mining jewels and gold, diamond ect. What has happened to them all? surley there must be millions of very old cut diamond out there, but Ive never seen one. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.143.142.68 (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC).


 * 1. According to our article on buried treasure, no not really, apart from this one, who may have done it once. (Of course, all that really means is that there are no confirmed cases. It's difficult to prove that no pirate has ever done this.)
 * 2. Given the above, no. (Although again, all we can say is that we know of no cases where buried pirate treasure has been found. Who knows? Maybe someone found some and kept quiet about it.)
 * 3. All the time. See Oak Island, for example.
 * 4. Good question. I'm sure they are out there somewhere.
 * - Eron Talk 14:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Koh-i-Noor, diamond mining was restricted to India for most of history, so that's where to look for old diamonds. I don't know how old you mean by 'very old', but the Koh-i-Noor seems to have been around for 500 years at least, possibly much longer. Of course, it's hard to be sure exactly how old a given old diamond is: there are stories of famous diamonds going back millennia, but how do you know they're about the same thing you've got? Algebraist 15:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

4) A fair amount of jewelry ends up buried with people. Other jewelry is destroyed in some manner.  Some ends up on the bottom of the ocean.  Some of the most spectacular jewelry ends up in museums. StuRat 05:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Prominence and Mt Everest
I'm assuming geography questions are in the miscellaneous section. Topographic prominence explains that prominence is the heigth from a peak to the lowest contour line surrounding it and no higher peak. It then goes on to say that on an island, the prominence of the highest peak is its elevation above sea level - which agrees with the definition. It also states that Mt Everest is an exception. Why does it need to be so? Surely it works "as is"? -- SGBailey 21:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that the sentence "For all peaks except Mount Everest, if the peak's prominence is P metres, to get from the summit to any higher terrain one must descend at least P metres" explains it. For an island you have to descend at least to sea level to get to a higher peak. That cannot be said for mount everest since you cannot get to a higher peak. If  you define prominence (as you have) as distance from peak to lowest contour line then indeed mount everest is not an exception. 21:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you SGBailey. I don't understand why Mount Everest would need to be excluded either. Recury 13:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, geography is a science, so the Science Desk would be appropriate for questions like this. StuRat 05:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Ref Desk intro page defines science as "Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Medicine, and Technology" which excludes geography as far as the uninformed reader can tell. -- SGBailey 13:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well geography borders on a humanity for me, but I think this question of formal definitions comes under the science side. (I may be biased as a physicist!)137.138.46.155 07:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems pretty clear to me: "prominence is the height from a peak to the lowest contour line surrounding it and no higher peak" - so to find the prominance of Everest you'd have to find the lowest contour line that surrounds Everest but which doesn't surround any peak higher than Everest - well, there is no peak higher than Everest - so you'd have to find lower and lower contours forever...well, I suppose technically you could find a contour that just surrounds the lowest point in the ocean bottom - and that would be the lowest possible contour that surrounds Everest (and the whole of the rest of the planet...except for the teeeny-tiny dot at that lowest point!). But that's a pretty silly measurement of the height of Everest - so the geographers have evidently decided to make it a special case.  For a mountain anywhere else, the answer is clear - it's the lowest contour that surrounds that mountain but doesn't include any other taller ones. SteveBaker 17:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * AHHH, this article is written so confusingly. Yes, there is no peak higher than Everest, but in the Americas there is none higher than Aconcagua, on Antarctica there is none higher than Vinson Massif, etc. List of peaks by prominence lays it out nicely. Instead of Everest being the exception, it should be the highest point on every landmass. Recury 19:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that's only the case if you take sea level to be the lowest contour - if you include bathymetry contours (below sea level) then Everest is the only special case and everything is perfectly well-defined for those other peaks. However, I can't really imagine any important use for these 'prominance' numbers - so it probably doesn't matter all that much. SteveBaker 21:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Fancy stuff
When I was talking to one of my friends last summer I remember him sticking his hand in my color and telling me that his tailor said something about the tightness of a shirt collar should be less than that of one's wrist+neck and that I should get a tighter collared shirt. Is that right? [' Mαc Δαvιs '] ❖ 22:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There probably is a hard and fast rule to tailoring a collar for a shirt and it probably isn't "less then circumference of neck plus wrist". But that's probably an approximation which is roughly close enough to tell at least if it is way off or not. Vespine 22:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Fanfiction.net - anyone else having problems signing up?
I've recently started writing fanfic again, so I tried to register for an account at fanfiction.net. For some reason, despite confirming my registration, the site doesn't seem to be sending out the 'click this link to confirm your account' emails. I've tried three different email addresses over the past three days and none of them has worked. There doesn't seem to be any way of contacting the staff at the site itself.

Anyone else had this problem? Thanks. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you carefully checked all your spamfilters and trash cans? What email service do you use? - Mgm|(talk) 09:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you checked their front page? That's where they list server etc problems. Also, I've always been able to contact them at help@fanfiction.net. Anchoress 09:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, according to the FanFiction.Net article (why didn't I look there before?) the site is working again after suffering technical problems. I tried registering again and it worked. Heh. --Kurt Shaped Box 14:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)