Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 August 24

= August 24 =

non disclosure agreement forms
I would like to know were i can find som non disclosure agreement forms. thank u —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.61 (talk)


 * I'm sorry, but I'm not at liberty to disclose that information. StuRat 02:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Google is normally the best way to get something like this. The first link is an example form; other links seem as apt for your question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A weighing scale that give you a card with your weight
When I was in Singapore a few years ago, I saw in several places, an interesting looking machine, that had the look of a pinball machine, and you put in a coin and out would pop a card with your weight on it (weight was in Kilograms). And, to top if off, it had a fortune printed in the back. I still have the card on my bulletin board, with a date on it, reminding me of the time I weighed xx.x kg! I am interested in finding out the name of this machine and the manufacturer. I have googled, and yahoo'd everywhere to track this machine down, but can't seem to get a lead. Any help appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.128.182 (talk)


 * I can't help with the name, but I remember these machines in Australia when I was a kid. The weight was printed in stones and pounds, and I don't recall there being any fortune on the back.  I haven't seen one for a very long time.  --   JackofOz 00:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I believe they were once popular in the US, as well. They've just gone out of style, probably because people don't want their weight known in public and all have home scales now.  There were also machines that just gave you a card with a fortune when you gave it a coin.  One of those on the table of a diner was the star of an original Twilight Zone episode titled Nick of Time. StuRat 01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Another one when I was a kid in Australia was a palm reading machine at Luna Park that had a bunch of little metal prongs that massaged your hand then printed out the results about your personality/future/fortune/whatever. Of course it was just a random 'luck of the draw' preprinted card I'm pretty sure, but it was kind of fun for little kids. Sorry, really getting off topic here; not helping with the actual question. --jjron 02:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Further afield, the fortune telling machines were a plot device in the Tom Hanks movie, Big. Dismas |(talk) 02:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If these old-time machines appeal to you, I strongly recommend visiting the Musée Mécanique if you are ever in San Francisco. --Anon, August 24, 03:25 (UTC).


 * There's one in Leadville, Colorado that would display your weight for a penny, but if you dropped a dime into the slot corresponding to your astrological sign, it would also display a horoscope. I don't think this one printed cards, though. --Mdwyer 05:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.


 * Theres loads of these things over here, in India. I just checked my weight a couple of days ago. ;-) .. They are just called weighing machines. I dont know if they have any special name or something. Some of them over here also print a picture of a movie star along with the horoscope on the back. :-D Jayant, 18 Years, India  • contribs 12:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if its legit to ask you to provide a manufacturer name if its available on the India machines, but if cross paths with one of those mechanical marvels,please send in any manuf.information. I want to see if I can get one for myself to stick in the basement. Particularly if its older and aged! Thank you very much.

Cats eating flies
My 3-year old calico (a male by the way :P) likes to catch ordinary house flies and he seems to want to eat them. My question is, is it healthy for a cat to eat flies? Will they get sick? Acceptable 00:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I should think the flies would be very sick indeed.... however, and this is NOT to be construed as veterinary advice, in my experience cats do not appear to come to any harm from the flies, bees, wasps, woodlice and other assorted creatures that they sometimes consume. DuncanHill 00:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't use flyspray in the house though as that can be toxic.hotclaws 01:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Original research warning.... Our kitten, well two year old cat really but she's really small, loves to catch and eat flys, moths, and anything else that she can catch.  No harm has come to her.  Of course we don't use any insecticides to kill the flys first.  Dismas |(talk) 02:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cats are predators; bugs are prey, so it's all quite normal, but he will of course be subject to whatever sorts of chemical defenses various critters have come up with over the years to dissuade those who might eat them. I know houseflies have no such poisons, but other things might.  My labrador retriever loves eating flies, using a method he apparently learned from a Venus flytrap. :) --Sean 12:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact my grandmother claims that it is good for our cat to eat bugs, she says that insects contain something healty (I think it was chitin, but I'm not entirely sure) Xil/talk 02:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I knew an old lady who swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed that fly. --Trovatore 08:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps she'll die! o_o --Masamage ♫ 08:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Flies should be harmless, but worry if he starts on hornets. Xn4 20:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is not good for cats to eat flies because they can develop worms whic altho not really harmful are disgusting and you neede medecine from the doctor to stop them...

Col Kadaffi and Amazons
Did you know that Col. Kadaffi has a military unit, which is his bodyguard, called "The Amazonian Guard", which is a ALL WOMEN military unit ? Tried placing this in appropriate articles, only that it disappears. 65.173.104.223 03:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Facts have to be verifiable. Did you cite sources that are reliable? -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 03:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Were they perhaps used to protect his harem ? (Men used to protect the harem women might be found in a compromising position.) StuRat 04:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * They're his bodyguards, just as is the US Secret Service is for the US President, all HEAVILY armed, and the Col. Kadaffi article does refer to them as "Amazons", as in "The Amazonian Guard". This made news when he went overseas when his guard showed up heavily armed. 65.173.104.223 05:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was placing what I've seen in the Kadaffi article into the Amazon article and related articles, such as History of Women in the Military, since this is a military unit. 65.173.104.223 05:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the only actual question here is "Did you know", to which the answer is "No, I didn't". I see from the material and citations in the article about the variously spelled leader that it's true.  However, the citations don't describe them as a military unit -- I don't say they aren't, only that the cites don't say that.  If you provided a cite for this fact, it would make sense for the item to be added to History of Women in the Military.  As to Amazons, though, it doesn't seem to be relevant there; the article is not about modern things or people known as Amazons. --Anonymous, August 24, 05:53 (UTC).
 * How did Hugh Hefner not think of that? Gzuckier 14:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Driving in Italy
What is the driving distance between Venice and Verona in Italy?84.97.83.139 07:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mapquest Europe says 74.97 miles

Dureo 12:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Google maps puts it at 121 km, which takes an hour and a half. However, the time between the near sides of each city will be significantly less than between the far sides of each city. StuRat 12:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Microsoft MapPoint gave me 119.9km, and calculated 1 hour, 9 minutes. About 12 km outside Venice, there's one toll booth for the A4 (also known as "la Serenissima"). ---Sluzzelin talk  14:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

smiles
I've noticed that in my college there are some girls who give a slight smile at me whenever I come across their way.Sometimes they smile by looking at the other direction(I am a boy).why is it so?


 * So smile back! :) Capuchin 07:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice. And your question is...? --jjron 08:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

For your next step (after you follow Capuchin's advice and smile back), say a cheery "Hello!" (or whatever equivalent you prefer) as you pass by. Escalate from there.

Atlant 11:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, check your fly. Gzuckier 14:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Check to see if you have anything stuck to your teeth or a "kick me" sign stuck to your back, as well as any coffee/spaghetti/blood stains you might have.  bibliomaniac 1 5  Prepare to be deleted! 01:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you sure you don't mean middle school and not college? 24.18.215.108 07:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Related thread. A.Z. 05:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

What is this thing called in english, and does an article already exist on the english wikipedia ?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F60

What is the english name for such a device (tried reading strip-mining and related articles, but no luck), and is there already an article about them on the english wikipedia ? I want to avoid starting an article and find its a duplicate, and I find it hard to believe they don't already have an article -- the things are the largest man-made moving objects existing, for starters. --212.33.149.18 08:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, clearly it says that the F60 is a Förderbrücke, whatever that is. The second half means "bridge", anyway.  Now, looking at the German article on Förderbrücke, I saw some other related model numbers and then I googled on those plus F60 plus the word "mining". I got a number of hits that tell me that the F60 is a conveyor bridge... which is exactly what it looks like, isn't it?  --Anon, August 24, 2007, 09:20 (UTC).


 * The English-language part of the company's web site uses the translation "Overburden conveyor bridge". It is mentioned in the Wikipedia article European Route of Industrial Heritage (although the word "conveyor" is spelled with an "-er" instead of "-or"). Wikipedia does have an article on overburden. Compare Bucket-wheel excavator. --Mathew5000 09:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Article now exists: Overburden Conveyor Bridge F60. Thanks to Scbarry for translating it from German. --Mathew5000 (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Aer Lingus Flight Tracker
On Aer Lingus flights like from IAD To DUB do the IFE systems offer a flight map showing current location of the aircraft on these IFE systems. For anyone who has been on the airline.--logger 08:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Translation: "Does the in-flight entertainment system on an intercontinental Aer Lingus flight give information about the location of the aircraft at any given time?" (Try to avoid using so many acronyms in questions or else people are going to have spend a good amount of time decyphering them.) --24.147.86.187 11:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You may have more success asking this at a frequent flyer's forum such as FlyerTalk -- I'd suggest the Other European Frequent Flyer Program board, which covers Aer Lingus. (They're also all completely conversant over there with the alphabet soup of the air traveler). --ByeByeBaby 07:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

fashion journalism
do you have to be from an elitist background to be a fashion journalist?


 * No, you don't. Richard Blackwell is one famous example who didn't grow up in an elitist background. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * hey thanks! great article :D

Real Estate Locations - Permanent Parcel Number
How do you find out the latitude and longitude for a Permanent Parcel Number which I believe is the designator of the location of a plot of land in the US? Specifically, I'm trying to find lat+long for a PPN in White County, Illinois. Thanks! --217.44.173.6 12:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably the Clerk of White County, accessible through DuncanHill 12:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. --217.44.173.6 12:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hobo Humpin' Slobo-Babe
What does "Hobo Humpin' Slobo-Babe" mean? It's the title of a song by Whale. SietskeEN 12:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be a woman who has sex with homeless men, meant as an insult. StuRat 12:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would also interpret the lyric "seeking candy" to mean she was trying to obtain illegal drugs, such as crack cocaine or meth crystals. So, putting that together with having sex with homeless men and the "broken kneecap" lyric, I'd conclude that this is a prostitute who gets beaten by her pimp and/or "johns", and uses any money she gets to obtain drugs.  Loosely speaking, such a woman is known as a "crack whore". StuRat 13:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Delightful.Sounds like just the sort of woman I'd want to welcome into my family Lemon martini 16:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall the band explaining that the word "slobo" refers to Sloane Square, home of the Sloane Ranger. So the song would be about a posh girl who likes to slum it.--Rallette 17:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

3 parts of a drum kit
How can you drum the ride cymbal, play the snare, then beat your foot on the bass drum doing all three at the same time? --Writer Cartoonist 14:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By using two hands and a foot. If you're right-handed, the ride cymbal is usually played with the right hand, the snare drum with the left and the bass drum with the right foot. — Matt Eason (Talk &#149; Contribs) 14:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless you're Rick Allen, who does things a little differently.--Shantavira|feed me 15:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As for how, you do need to train your neural network's left–right coordination in order to play the drums acceptably. It takes a lot of practice, and there are numerous exercise books written for this purpose. Even leaving out the feet, (snare) drum rudiments are an important (and somewhat dreaded) part of most drummers' education. (My teacher made me slave through a publication from the 1930s called Stick Control, a grey book without pictures, but lots and lots of exercise patterns in little print.) ---Sluzzelin talk  16:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Iran
How have America's military and political actions in the Middle East region helped or hindered Iran? --Longhornsg 14:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is an incredibly broad question. For direct actions, see Shah of Iran, Iran-Contra Affair, Iran-Iraq War, and Iran Air Flight 655.  Our indirect actions, like the current adventure in Iraq and our unconditional support for Israel undoubtedly affect Iran, but I'm not sure if they help or hinder in the long run.  My speculation is that these actions help the ruling regime, but hurt the citizenry.  --Sean 16:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you asked this on the Humanities desk Cilo will probably do your homework for you.  Plasticup  T / C  16:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * offtopic Clio's still around? I thought she exercised her "lady's prerogative" to renounce the RD --⁪frotht 05:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * what do you think? &mdash; Shinhan  &lt;&thinsp; talk &thinsp;&gt; 14:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes OK I checked the humanities desk and saw her posts, I don't need a link. I just never look at the humanities desk other than for maintenance, and she seems content to just stick within her field of study so I don't see her elsewhere. Seems I've been missing out on the old crowd in the humanities desk- is that you shantavira? o_O --⁪frotht 17:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm no historian, but Iran has to be concerned militarily because there are US/Brit military on their  Iraq border, Nato troops in Afghanistan. Of course the Kurds are emboldened by the Iraq dysfunction and I don't know about Turkmenistan if there is a US presence there. So, given all this, if I was Iran, I would be deeply concerned. Hence their Nuclear bombast. I also note that the Shia's don't appear to be homogeneous. The Iraq Shia's and the Iraninan Shia's are not the same ethnic group. So a Shia led Iraq is not a slam dunk ally for the Iranians. My view only. I am only an armchair commenter. So, please don't flame me, but correct any factuals errors I have made so I may learn.
 * What are you talking about dude, the whole idea is that the Shias are a united entity, bent on the homogenization of the middle east, and the expulsion of the Kurdish PKK. It's common knowledge.

We have to keep in mind Persian Shia's and Arabic(Iraq) Shia's and other Shia communities exist(might be in Indonesia and smaller numbers in India/Pak/Bangladesh). Homogenizing as a means to a political union have been, in the middle east, dismal. Note: Pres.Nasser in Egypt tried to unite Syria (Sunni), Iraq(under Sunni leadership), Egypt(Sunni)   into the United Arab Republic, but it failed. There is too much of nationalism built into these countries in their national post colonial identities to permit some sort of virtual unions as in a Shia state that encompasses Iran, Iraq. It will not happen. Besides, my understanding, is that Sunni's have historically been the winners in the Middle East, and they will never permit a Shia leadership to succeed in any country except, as tolerated, Iran (in the Mid.East Region). The PKK is another matter. I think if they "behave" themselves, and become more or less neutral to conflicting interests of Turkey, Iran and Iraq they will survive as some sort of semi-sovereign entity.

Religion and Faith

 * Given that Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God; and also given that Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Son of God; and further given that Islam is based on "revelations" made by God (Allah) to Muhammed (in his many spellings)which revelations are followed to this day by Muslims who believe inplicitly in the Koran and its teachings as interpreted from time to time by their Imams and Mullahs et al, and finally given the existence of myriads of other religions around the world since time began; if I could prove conclusively that there is not, and never has been a superbeing or God, would all the followers of all the diverse religions believe my evidence, or would they all carry on as before believing that I was a false prophet? And conversely, if I could prove, conclusively, that there is a superbeing or God (singular) who regarded all mankind equally as His creation, would the followers of all the diverse and competing religions accept Him/Her/It as their common God and live peaceably for all time coming, assuming of course that all the aforementioned religions claim to be pursuing God's peace??

You'd encounter a problem in that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something. So your first question is a moot point and just philosophical ponderings. For the second, it would depend on each person's faith. Since faith doesn't deal in fact, whether you prove something through logic is immaterial. If the person truly believes, they will have faith that they are right and that you are wrong. They may even think that you have been sent by some evil power, such as a devil, to test them and their faith. Dismas |(talk) 16:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not impossible to prove non-existence. You just assume existence and show that it leads to a logial impossibility. See, Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. As for the original question: you might convince some people with proof but, in my experience, many theists tend to be impervious to logic.  Plasticup  T / C  17:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is impossible to disprove the existence of God, because God can always "retreat". At one point people believed that God caused the Sun to rise each day, then we figured out the Earth's rotation causes the apparent sunrise.  Then people instead said "but God still created the Sun".  We now have plenty of evidence that stars like our Sun form spontaneously from interstellar gas.  So now people say "but God created the universe".  If we ever know how the universe was created they will just say "but God created [whatever it is that created the universe]".  This process can continue forever. StuRat 17:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Stu, it's been a long day, so I'm sorry that my brain isn't quite working out the negatives in your first sentence. Are you agreeing with my point about not being able to prove the non-existence of a god?  Dismas |(talk) 23:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm agreeing with you. Or, to put it another way, I don't disagree with what you didn't not say. :-) StuRat 03:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that doesn't not clear it all up. :-)  Dismas |(talk) 08:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Our God of the gaps article covers this wiliest of His maneuvers. --Sean 18:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If the god(s) being postulated are omnipotent (as they tend to be) - then their existance is formally/mathematically non-falsifiable. You might come up with some really amazing "proof" of non-existance (as has been attempted many times) but a follower of that god may simply claim that god wanted things to look like that.  Since the god in question is infinitely capable - you can't prove that the god didn't change your results, or falsify the facts or bend your mind to think the way you do.  There is no counter-argument to that.  For example, you might claim that fossils of dinosaurs prove that the Adam and Eve story in the christian bible is untrue...the creationists will just say that god put the fossils there to "test your faith".  You counter with (say) radicarbon dating evidence - they just say that god is perfectly able to adjust the carbon 14 ratios to make you think that.   If the god-being is truly infinitely capable, there is no possible experiment that cannot be tampered with by that being to change the results in some way.  Hence no experiments are valid in any universe where a god exists.  That only means that the existance of god(s) cannot be DISproven.  There is no reason (in principle) why the existance of a god could not be conclusively proven.  It's only disproof that's impossible.  On the other hand, there have (as yet) been no convincing proofs of the existance of gods either.   With no possible disproof - and no extant proof, the existance of god(s) is a matter of personal faith.  However, there are an infinite number of unproven/unfalsifiable things you could choose to believe in.  Why you'd pick this particular one rather than (say) that the tooth fairy created the universe with the help of Santa and his reindeer...well, that's something I may never understand! SteveBaker 14:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Trolley name
What is the name for the small two-wheeled trolleys made out of (usually tartan) fabric that old women are often portrayed pulling? They look similar to those wheeled suitcases often seen at airports. I reckon not only would one be very useful to have, it would also be very fun, fairly cheap and relatively easy to "Pimp" one (just make a new bag, put some new wheels on etc) just for fun! Laïka 17:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (UK) I've always known these as 'shopping trolleys' http://www.kellys-eye.co.uk/products/shoptrolley_category.php - I'm sure there are other names or them though.87.102.75.201 17:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a shopping trolley, and they come with four and six wheels as well. The Wikipedia redirect would seem to be wrong.--Shantavira|feed me 17:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Not wrong as such, since those other things are also shopping trolleys, and the main use of the word for most people in the UK. However, a note about 'other uses' at the top of that page would be good, if we have an article to direct to. :) 86.141.89.213 17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks; I've always used shopping trolley to describe what the US call shopping carts (the target of that redirect). Looks like a disambiguation is in order... Laïka  17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I (personally UK) tend to call those 'supermarket trolleys' or even 'supermarket shopping trolleys'. 87.102.6.217 22:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In my neck of the woods (southeast USA), they're called "granny carts". --Sean 18:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I lived in Tennessee for six years and never heard it referred to as a "granny cart". I've lived in Vermont now for four years and have never heard them referred to as a "shopping carriage" as the article states.  I've always heard/used "shopping cart" for both the two wheeled version and the four wheeled version that the article is about.  Dismas |(talk) 23:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here in Toronto I've heard the term "bundle buggy". I'm not sure what term is most commonly used; I just call mine a "cart". Like most of the ones used here, its sides and bottom are a grid of metal bars a few inches apart, not fabric. It is assumed that if you're bringing your shopping home, the store will have bagged the items and therefore they won't fall through the openings. --Anonymous, August 25, 2007, edited 06:16 (UTC).


 * "Granny cart" is common in California too. —Tamfang 05:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

History teaching us a lesson?
I study the media in the UK and see kids being shot and stabbed to death, religious and community tensions, out-of-control-alcohol-abuse amongst the (mainly) young, general disrespect for acceptable behaviour, appalling disregard to others on the roads, distrust of politicians and policies, unprotected sex resulting in increasing teenage pregnancies and benefits claims, anti-social behaviour, and a general F... You - couldn't care-less attitude amongst increasing numbers of our people/residents/citizens, especially amongst the drinking and drug-taking classes, and I hear government ministers lecturing us on tolerance and acceptance whilst throwing zillions of money at "the problem" with no visible benefit. And I ask here whether history might be able to foretell when the UK will become a Police-State, or experience a Military Coup to restore some semblance of public order? I know for sure the foregoing scenarios are inevitable - I just wonder when that might happen, based on previous historical experience?
 * Please note that the reference desk is not a discussion forum, nor is it able to see into the future. Yours is not a reference question.  --Sean 18:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Tomorrow, definitely. Adam Bishop 23:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * History cannot foretell much of anything. It can indicate how things happened in the past, at best, and even that can takes a lot of work and goes through a lot of revision. Knowing the past can, potentially, tell you about patterns, about underlying mechanisms, about factors that have been significant in the past, but it is a fool's assumption to think that such things will necessarily occur in the future. Further complicating things is that our understanding of the past is always very colored by our understanding of the present (histories of Afghanistan before 9/11 focus often on very different things than those written after 9/11; the CIA funding of mujahadeen, for example, becomes much more portentous, since many of those forces would later turn on the U.S.) and potentially on our expectations of the future.
 * It is always easy for the historian to go back and show the sequence of events leading into something already known, and to point out historical antecedents and parallels. To do so about events not already known, though, is just speculation—not necessarily baseless (because there are commonalities than run through events, even if they are not consistent), but speculation nonetheless.
 * In any case here you use your own perception of the present (based on media representations of a society in chaos) to assume that the only solution to said problem is a massive centralization of governance and extension of authority, and then ask how history can be read to tell us when that will happen. You are incorporating heavy and from I can tell unexamined assumptions about the veracity of the media representation, and the natural (national) response to a society in chaos. The idea that going into it with those sorts of un-weightened assumptions and coming out with some sort of specific and clear date on an event which (if history is, one might say, any indication) has a great likelihood of not happening seems to be a bit unreasonable.
 * The one message that most good historians try to press upon their readership, and often fail, is that the movements of the past were not inevitable. The movements of the future are surely not. --24.147.86.187 00:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

wagon wheel snake
As a child in the south I would hear old people refer to a snake that would roll like a wagon wheel. I'm pretty sure it's not true but I just had a conversation with someone that had heard of it too. Myth?
 * See hoop snake. --Sean 18:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah - Myth. SteveBaker 14:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)