Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 June 12

= June 12 =

grants
copied from WP:HD In N.J. what governmental agency receives requests for grants and then issues the grant. Are there any internet info where one can find who has received grants and the amounts thereof?68.36.45.130 01:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's one: New Jersey Division of Local Government Services grants. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 03:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Source of fictional character archetype
Hello, I'm trying to find out the source of a staple cartoon/fantasy character. It is, basically, a large muscle-man with a little brainy elfin guy riding on his back. The idea is that the brainy guy, who is too weak to function effectively, is controlling the strong guy, who is too dumb to function effectively. I remember this type of character, or variations on it, from a few different movies or television shows, but I can't put my finger on it, I'm really confused on this. Anybody know what I'm talking about? --Clngre 04:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure this isn't the source, but my favorite example of this is Freak the Mighty. V-Man - T/C 04:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Master Blaster was composed of a smart, diminutive "Master" who rode on the back of an enormously strong, but dim-witted bodyguard known as "Blaster" in the 1985 movie Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. I think this archetype might be called giant/dwarf team up. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 04:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think that's it! In any case that feels really familiar and is evoking all kinds of nostalgia right now, so it's something. Thanks a lot! I think I'll check out that childrens book too, it looks interesting.
 * But, out of curiosity, does anybody know any more instances of this thing? It's such a quirky idea, but still seems relatively common. --Clngre 04:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In The Wild Wild West, the mad scientist Doctor Loveless (a dwarf) was sometimes assisted by an inarticulate giant named Voltaire. &mdash;Tamfang 08:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The character Fezzik in The Princess Bride is a (seemingly) simple giant, although he displays more hidden wit and creativity than some of the other characters (notably the brainy-but-weak, hunchbacked Vizzini) give him credit for. —Steve Summit (talk) 11:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In The Two Towers, the second volume of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, Merry and Pippin sat in the branches of Treebeard while Treebeard attack Saruman at his stronghold of Isengard. Treebeard was no dummy, however.--  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 16:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Contrast Mûmak. Perhaps the whole idea originated with war elephants.--Shantavira|feed me 17:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * First ones to come to my mind doesn't fit your bill exactly, but I thought of the Nebraska family from Trigun, Cait Sith from Final Fantasy VII, and even Krang from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

There's also a lot of giant robot anime/movies that have scenes like this -- Phoeba WrightOBJECTION! 20:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow thanks for all the help, this is fantastic and really interesting, I really appreciate it.--Clngre 01:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This isn't a unique pairing - just about any kind of contrast can be used to tie a small group of characters together. Size, for instance, has been used for decades in traditional vaudeville-style pairings, of the tall skinny guy with the short stocky guy. I tried to find a reference, the closest I got was Double act, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about. Smart/dumb has been used in all kinds of places as well. Pinky and the Brain actually followed a fairly classic formula in their character design, dating back past Laurel and Hardy. I'm pretty sure there's a name for it, but I can't remember it. Black Carrot 03:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Granted, the original question was about cartoons/fantasy, but surely there is room to mention Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men! -- LarryMac  | Talk 14:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * An oldie but a weirdie: Burrough's Rykors and Kaldanes from 1920s Barsoom. Also, of course, Observer (MST3K), to whom I think it was Crow once addressed the provocative question, why is it preferable to have a separate body which you control to haul your brain around, instead of just keeping it in your skull? Gzuckier 19:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Say, which came first, the Observers or the Ood? —Tamfang (talk) 01:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Banjo-Kazooie? 194.80.32.9 19:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

ATC on delta
Do the delta airlines aircraft offer air traffic control audio on their flights.--logger 04:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably not, for security issues. Neil   ╦  13:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not? Other airlines offer this.  Dismas |(talk) 13:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They do? Really?  Then I don't know.  Try calling them and asking.  Neil   ╦  13:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The one time I flew Delta (about ten years ago, I believe), I thought I was really sneaky because I could hear the captain and Air Traffic Control on one of the audio channels, and I assumed nobody was supposed to hear that one. It was neat, because I could hear all the jargon that preceded the "we're about to experience turbulence" announcements and stuff. I can't remember which channel it's on, though... Trial and error, I suppose. V-Man - T/C 00:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall if Delta does this, (Although I strongly suspect that different planes are equipped differently.) but if you were really interested, An alternative might be to pick up a cheap aircraft-band portable radio. However a little research would be required to make sure you're listening on the right frequency. 69.95.50.15 13:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's nix the portable radio idea. It's not permitted by most (or all) airlines.  For one thing, due the the frequencies generated by the radio itself, it could play havoc with the navigation equipment on the plane. Bunthorne 04:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

car boy
While cleaning the basement of my wifes grandfather I came across a thick light blue glass container (about 24" high by about 14" dia.)My father-in-law said it was a CAR BOY. It held acid for car batteries. Do you have any info on a car boy?69.21.24.6 14:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * See Carboy. I use mine for making beer, I never heard of storing battery acid in one.  (Insert joke about the quality of my homebrew here).  -- LarryMac  | Talk  14:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't know about beer, but a carboy is and always has been a glass container for holding acids or other corrosive liquids. Every UK garage had them whilst batteries needed regular checking. Incidentally - blue glass bottles always held poison.86.197.171.129 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)petitmichel


 * Interesting. The 1911 Encyclopedia agrees, which means our article needs some updating.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  15:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL! One of my beer-brewing connoisseur friends insists that blue bottles are always the best to hold his home brews. I'll have a bit of info for him! V-Man - T/C 01:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My wife has just contributed the fact that brown glass was used for liquids for use externally. Also, she tells me, the bottles were shaped with two flat sides, and corrugations, to aid the visually handicapped.86.197.42.163 14:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

Reconnaissance vehicles
I was looking for an article about reconnaissance tanks and other reconnaissance vehicles... is there any with a different lemma? --KnightMove 15:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * My scout couldn't find one. But you can find a lot of articles on individual models in Category:Reconnaissance vehicles, or create an article yourself (If you stub it, they will come). Clarityfiend 15:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Prince Harry is expected to patrol the southern Iraq desert in an armored reconnaissance tank, so it is likely that Wikipedia will have a reconnaissance tanks real soon. I'm not sure what you mean by "a different lemma". --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 17:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lemma (linguistics) - a "form of a word". Yeah, I'd never heard of that meaning either. Clarityfiend 18:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We have on article on Prince Harry's vehicle, FV107 Scimitar. Rmhermen 18:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. In the German Wikipedia, "Lemma" is the term for the article superscription. As this is an unusual wording in German, I deemed this to be the established word in all Wikipedias. So what is the correct term for article captions here?
 * Nothing special as far as I know, just "title" or "name". Clarityfiend 20:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Naming conventions uses "name", so that's probably the correct term for article captions. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 02:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I considered it possible that there is an article dealing with the topic, under a caption I don't know... "Surveillance craft" or whatever... --KnightMove 19:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to hijack the question somewhat, but Prince Harry will not be on patrol in Iraq, see, he will however be taking a desk job in Canada see and  Xarr  &#9742;  20:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

When I first read the question, I thought you were referring to this guy. -- JackofOz 23:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Creating worlds (Question especially for people who work in entertainment industry)
What is the usual process for creating worlds, as in, maps and floorplans and etc., and connecting them to work together? Mainly, I want to know about the following:


 * Video games, especially RPGs and MMORPGs.
 * How Tolkein came up with middle earth and it's locations

If anyone knows about this, it's appreciated -- Phoeba WrightOBJECTION! 20:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Tolkien's work is basically a life-long thing, where he even created languages for (Elvish). He was skilled in linguistics though. When I try to create worlds, I just draw a map of how the area would look and add in as I see fit. I doubt you can find documentation on the exact processes Tolkien took though. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For worlds with large outdoor areas (I guess that's what you mean) the terrain is generally generated with a procedural terrain generator (Terragen, Bryce (software), and many more). Some of these terrain generators are purely fractal, but some also implement a more physically accurate model (modelling erosion in particular). Google for "terrain generation", or look at this tutorial.   In practice, for games, the designer will probably have some fixed ideas about where they want major features (islands, continents, mountain ranges, desert plains, etc.) to be found, so the terrain generator will allow them to rough out that and it'll fill in pseudorandom detail to produce a natural-looking landscape.  Designers will then typically tweak bits they don't like, and then will decide where to place artificial features (cities, bridges, dungeons, castles). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For indoor areas designers either use off the shelf 3d modelling programs like 3D Studio Max or engine-specific programs (which frequently use constructive solid geometry to compose complex forms from basic primitives like cubes and cylinders). In addition to doing the geometry the designer also has to position the correct textures (a texture is an image which is wallpapered onto the geometric model, giving it the appearance of a real object) and lights. The resulting file is often then processed by some tools which optimise it and precalculate some info that will be of help when later playing the map in a game.  This whole process is rather an unpleasant and labourious task (which explains why so many games have large sections of very uninspiring architecture - the designer ran out of patience or time at that point).  While it is possible to programatically generate indoor spaces, this tends to produce some very dull maze-like maps, so that's not very common. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Category:Level editors lists some editor programs used to create maps (which, perhaps confusingly, mostly means "indoor areas") for computer games. Category:3D graphics software lists some of the software that one might use when creating scenes for a computer-generated movie; big CG houses like Weta, ILM, DWA, and Pixar have sizeable internal software development departments and use a lot of home-grown tools. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It appears that Tolkien made the geography to fit the plot; e.g. he shifted the course of Anduin, between Rauros and Minas Tirith, several times so that the various parties moving about would reach their destinations in the desired order. The distribution of mountain ranges in Middle-Earth doesn't make much geological sense.  &mdash;Tamfang 21:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there doesn't seem to be a gaping plot hole that Tolkien didn't feel could be plugged with another unfeasably jagged linear mountain range. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You need to remember that Middle-Earth was created by gods, not by geology. --Carnildo 22:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, some features were intentionally made by gods – the Misty Mountains were raised by Melko to impede the migration of the Eldar, iirc – but such features seem to be a minority. The fall of the Lamps apparently shaped the land and sea more than all the efforts of the Valar combined.  &mdash;Tamfang 17:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien created his languages first, then wrote a mythos to support them and their historical changes. Corvus cornix 21:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Image question
What is the person in this image wearing? Some sort of gimp suit? Dismas |(talk) 21:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've heard of people putting on "fat suits" for sumo wrestling. I don't have a reference and don't know much about it, but maybe it's one of those.  Friday (talk) 22:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Fat suits are usually padded and flesh coloured, that looks more like someone screwing around and connecting their oxygen tank or an air compressor/pump to a wet suit -- Phoeba WrightOBJECTION! 23:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with fat suits or wet suits. It is a kind of fetish. Wikipedia doesnt seem to have a page on it. Im not sure what the proper name for it is, but its connected to rubber fetishism. Inflatable fetishism perhaps? Blow-up suit? | Mr Blowup certainly likes it. p.s i am not into that shit. honestly. Willy turner 23:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Above link is not work-safe. Please mention it next time Willy turner. 74.111.82.91 02:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fer real. >_< V-Man - T/C 02:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like they just pumped air into a wet suit. But if it's a fetish, I can't imagine that Wikipedia is missing a page on it. Those guys are thorough. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 02:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OK. There now is a little blurb on rubberists "Mr. Blowup" at Garment fetishism: Latex/PVC fabric. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 03:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Left side, right side
Here in the U.S. we drive on the right, so it's not surprising that we normally walk on the right side of a busy hallway such as in schools and at work. This got me thinking, do people in the UK walk on the left side of halls and such? I would presume the answer would be yes but you never know so I thought I'd ask. Dismas |(talk) 21:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I was in Barbados a week ago, where as a former British colony they drive on the left, and yes, on sidewalks pedestrians tend to pass each other on the left as well. [But may the OR police strike me dead if I've transgressed...] --Steve Summit (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

As someone who lives in the UK, i would say catigoricaly that there is no favoured side to walk on. And i find it hard to beleive that in the US people normally walk on the right side of corridors. Surely its more of a free for all, with people walking wherever theres space. Willy turner 22:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, generally on the right. And we push our carts on the right of supermarket aisles, as well.  Corvus cornix 22:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you notice, most doors for those supermarkets have the entrance on the right as well. That's exactly why I keep trying to go through the wrong door on one particular market near me that for some reason does not follow this custom.  Dismas |(talk) 03:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, now that i've thought about it, i guess we do walk on the right in the US. i never really noticed before.-- Maddiewas here 22:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm Australian, where we drive on the left, and we do tend to stick to the left side of hallways, footpaths, shopping aisles, etc as well. Even those of us who don't drive at all. Down M. 23:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur with that. I know of at least one case where a city council made it compulsory, on pain of a fine, for pedestrians to walk on the left-hand side of inner-city footpaths whenever there was any traffic in the opposite direction.  --  JackofOz 00:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have lived in the United States most of my life, and I agree that people here generally walk on the right, though there are always exceptions: people who are oblivious and people who cling to the left side of the sidewalk/pavement and force others to walk around them! I have been to England several times.  When I am there, I have tried to keep to the left, but I must concur with Willy turner that it is a bit of a free-for-all, in London anyway.  I think that Londoners have a slight tendency to keep left, but it is a much weaker tendency than the preference for walking on the right in U.S. cities.  Incidentally, on a recent trip to India, where they drive on the left, I noticed a definite preference among pedestrians to walk down the left side of the street, even though there are seldom sidewalks/pavements, and walking down the left side of the street leaves you unable to see the cars, motorbikes, and autorickshaws (motorized tricycles) careening recklessly toward your back!  Marco polo 00:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the responses, everyone! Dismas |(talk) 03:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Weird. I was actually taught to walk on the right side in the US in either elementary or middle school, if not both. I think it's one of those mannerism rules that many people know. Just to add, moving sidewalks are on the right also in the US. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Apart from agreeing with all that it's a bit of a free-for-all in the UK (with the general rule just seeming to be that you give everyone as much room as possible in passing), people are taught to walk on the right hand side of roads, if there is no pavement or the pavement is small, so as to face oncoming traffic. I don't know if this contributes to the general situation. Skittle 18:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * On the London Underground system, which has a huge number of escalators, anybody wishing to walk (or run, which is a bit naughty) is urged to do so on the left, and standing users must stand to the right. As confirmed here, this is backed up not just by signs on every escalator but by custom - if you stand on the left of an LU escalator, eyebrows will be raised, at the very least.  I don't think there's such a strong "convention" on other escalators, such as those in department stores, though.  Hassocks5489 07:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That is the convention on moving sidewalks in major US airports, such as O'Hare and  ATL.  I tried to find an image or something to support this OR, but failed.  Hopefully the OR cops are still busy with Steve Summit!  -- LarryMac  | Talk  13:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

So why the hell do Target stores (in the US!) have the automatic doors to enter on the left of the automatic doors to leave? See the red "do not enter" signs on the right doors and the green signs on the left? Recury 17:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Now that you mention it, there is a Target in Jackson, Tennessee that is the same way.  The cash registers are on the right as you go in, so there is a reason to have the exit on the right since people would naturally flow from the registers to the exit.  But you're right in that this is not "standard".  Dismas |(talk) 20:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This would be pretty standard supermarket design in the UK - you enter on the left-hand side of the store and proceed in a generally clockwise direction to reach the tills and the exits. -- Arwel (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Clockwise-counterclockwise
In the US, people walk/run counterclockwise around exercise tracks such at high schools, parks, and the like. Is that the same in other countries? --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 01:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Without knowing, I'd say it has to do with the direction of traffic flow, since roundabouts in the United States move counter-clockwise due to driving on the right-hand side. I'm willing to bet that countries that drive on the left-hand side also have people jogging clockwise around the school track. V-Man - T/C 01:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about casual running in parks and the like, but I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the world do running races go clockwise round the track; certainly they don't hear in the UK (they don't go counterclockwise either, of course. They go anticlockwise). Algebraist 13:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Tawaf article states they circumambulate the Ka'bah in a counter-clockwise direction. However, the Circumambulation article states that Circumambulation is done in a clockwise direction, perhaps for religions other than Islam. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 16:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hindus go clockwise to keep their right side toward the venerated object. &mdash;Tamfang 17:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * V-Man737, we drive on the left in Australia, but still run anti-clockwise (thanks, Algebraist). I've never seen any race run in the clockwise direction, anywhere in the world.  Running has been around a lot longer than cars, so its traditions predate whatever rules apply to cars, and I doubt the latter have had any influence at all on running.  Interestingly, the majority of horse races in Australia are run clockwise, but some states (eg. Victoria, where the Melbourne Cup takes place), opt for anti-clockwise.  --  JackofOz 01:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What is the world's largest prison?
my friend asked me this. have done a quick google search, but no joy. What i mean is, which prison holds the most inmates? Willy turner 22:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * North Korea. Corvus cornix 22:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Although technically the United States has more people actually in a prison complex (and has the largest institutionalized prison system in the world). Though I get your drift. --24.147.86.187 22:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The largest in the US is, I think, Angola Prison, which has over 5,000 inmates. Not sure of other big prisons elsewhere in the world but that's a nice number to start from. San Quentin has around that number as well, though. Tilanqiao Prison in Shanghai is said to have the capacity for 8,000 inmates — no idea if it really has that many, though (we don't have an article about it). --24.147.86.187 23:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Google gave no dice but hakia.com listed The Twin Towers Correctional Facility in LA as the largest prison (in square feet) in the world with 4,500 inmates. But “The Farm,” the Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola has at least 5,000 and may be the largest in the Us. I don't know why it is so hard to find the answer to this... Sifaka   talk  23:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC) (sorry I accidently erased everyone elses edits then fixed it... whoops)

I found answers to every related question but could not answer the question asked: I think someone needs to bring out the big guns to answer the initial question! --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 03:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Tihar Jail in New Delhi is one of the largest prison complexes in the world (13,436 inmates)
 * Camp Lawton was briefly the world's largest prison camp in the waning days of the Civil War
 * Prison Fellowship International is the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners and their families.
 * California's Department of Corrections is the world's third-largest prison system
 * Reporters Without Borders calls China the world's largest prison for journalists. Cuba remains the world's second largest prison for the press.
 * Some say Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison
 * State Prison of Southern Michigan was once the largest walled prison in the world
 * The Vatican has no prison system
 * The GEO Group is the world's largest private prison company
 * The world's two largest women's prisons are both located in Chowchilla, California


 * According to this, Riker's Island is "the largest penal colony in the world." Our article says "The facility generally holds about 15,000 inmates at a time, although the daytime population (including staff) can be 20,000 or more." However, the 2000 census listed the inmate population at 12,780. Still, since Tihar Jail is comprised of 9 prisons, and Kim Jong Il isn't answering my emails, I think this may be it. Yours truly, Big Bertha. Clarityfiend 15:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have Kim's email address? Is it k-tothej-tothe-il@pyongyang.nk?  :)  Corvus cornix 16:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops. Riker's is also a multi-prison complex (10), so Tihar Jail is back in the running, depending on your definition of prison. Sincerely, Pop gun. Clarityfiend 18:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, Guinness World Records has no records on prison. I think the initial question refers to a single, uninterrupted complex that is part of a country's criminal justice system (as opposed to facilities for holding prisoners of war). I don't think Tihar Jail is a single, uninterrupted complex. I'm still calling this one unanswered. --  Jreferee  ( Talk ) 15:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Obtaining a flight record
How do I go about getting confirmation from an airline showing that I was a passenger on one of their flights? Do I make a request to the airline or to a govt agency? (flight was on Virgin US -> UK). appreciate any help...
 * Ask the airline. I have never done this but you could try calling customer service and ask for confirmation that you boarded on flight X. Only a video of you walking on the plane itself and not getting off would be fullproof confirmation, but for most normal reasons you can probably get the confirmation from them that you got your ticket, a boarding pass for your flight, and that it was scanned when you boarded your flight. If you picked up a boarding pass in the airport (rather than printing your pass from home and bringing it) and you still have the torn stub, that's great. Sifaka   talk  00:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Asking the airline in a polite letter is the best way, but if they fail to tell you you can write to them claiming a "subject access request" under the Data protection act and then they have to tell you. I think this may only apply to UK citizens, and definately only to UK companies. Virgin is a UK company. Its a bit full-on, but it is then a legal requirement that they give you the information you need. This only applies if its your flight and not someone else... 195.137.96.79 05:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, should you need to use this route, and it's only a last resort, they can chare you a small fee to comply. I think its about £10 max. Calling or writing is the best way to start with 195.137.96.79 05:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)