Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 June 21

= June 21 =

maneuverability driving help
When taking the maneuverability test, can someone please tell me how to turn the wheel when going to the left side of the top cone? Or the right side? I know you have to brake and turn the wheel to a half turn in some direction, but I'm not sure which. Thanks!


 * Perhaps it is obvious to some, but what are you manoeuvering? Bielle 03:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He or she is talking about the test they give to new drivers in the U.S. (in some states anyway). -- Mwalcoff 05:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this the test you're talking about?
 * I don't live in Ohio, but it would seem to me that if the examiner tells you to go left, you turn the wheel left, then turn it back to the right to straighten out. If the examiner tells you to go right, you turn the wheel right, then turn it back to the left to straighten out.
 * When you have to back up, reverse the steps. TomTheHand 18:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To be perfectly honest - if it's not entirely natural and obvious to you - then you aren't ready to take the test. I mean - we could tell you exactly what to do, then you might pass - but what happens when you are parking your car by yourself the day after the test and you have to do something similar...but not exactly...to this manouver?  You need to go out with whoever is teaching you to drive and do lots of parking/manouvering practice in a big empty parking lot someplace.  You have to have this stuff down at an instinctual level - you shouldn't have to think. SteveBaker 22:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's hard to argue with this logic. If you don't know that to go left, you turn the wheel left, you probably need more practice before taking any kind of test. TomTheHand 14:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me say that I am a very safe driver and haven't been in an accident in years, but I only "passed" the Ohio maneuverability test because I had a really nice tester who let me hit the cone twice on the backwards-driving part. -- Mwalcoff 22:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

About a copper coin dated back to Das Dynasty in India
Hi,

I have a coin probably dated back to 1236-37 AD, would you please help me out by sending me a literature to study autheticity of the article. Its probably dated back to Das dynasty (Sultana Rijia's time) in India. Wuld you please tell me how many coins datad back to the same period in avialable worldwide?

Would you please provide me a picture of a coin dated back to Das Dynasty in India, So that I could match the letters on both side of the coin? Its a copper coin.

Regards Reeju Roy


 * Please do not crosspost your questions. The same question was asked and answered at the Humanities section. --Lambiam Talk  19:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

New Zealand theme parks
What is the best and largest theme park in New Zealand? Is it Rainbows End?


 * I always thought New Zealand was the biggest theme park in Australia. Regardless, a quick google seems to suggest Rainbows End, although I didn't see a hard fact -- Phoeba WrightOBJECTION! 09:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The South Island. Mhicaoidh 09:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I always thought New Zealand was the biggest theme park in Australia I hope your joking they are different countries Samarchist 01:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Haha of course, if you are either Aussie or Kiwi you would clearly know it was a joke:) Vespine 03:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

so is it the best and largest theme park in New Zealand?

Discomfort
I'm not sure how to say this, but okay.

I believe that it is usual (at least in Western culture) less "inappropriate" for a man to be seen naked by men than by women. (Think of locker rooms and police searches.) Why is this?

I am male, and I feel much more uncomfortable about being seen nude and/or touched in a "personal" way by women than by men. For example, I was quite uncomfortable with the idea of a sort of genital examination being done on me by a man, but I had been much less (psychologically) uncomfortable when a similar examination was done on me by a woman. I know it was just a medical procedure, but it is still my "personal area" and I don't want other men invading my "personal area"!

Also, I am much less uncomfortable about being touched, etc., by women than by men. I have let dance partners know this. I am not uncomfortable with being touched and (I would imagine) even molested by a woman, but I am much more defensive around men.

This isn't normal, is it? If it is not normal, why are other men different?


 * It's probably just a light case of homophobia. It's not just usual in Western cultures to be more appropriate to be naked in front of members of the same sex. For example, Japanese have public bath houses and onsen, which are usually separated by sex. As far as normal, there really isn't a normal in the sense that if you feel that way, it's normal for you. Other men might not care, and some might not care because they might be more comfortable with their sexuality. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Wirbelwind. There isn't anything abnormal about feeling that way. On another note, generally in the USA, such examinations are done by a doctor of the same sex. Of course, for highly specialized things, you don't really have a choice. But for routine physical examinations, usually it's done with the same gender --GTPoompt (talk) 18:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be sort of an awkward career, to be a female doctor specializing in male "personal area"s.. though I guess it's pretty common the other way around with male gynocologists --⁪frotht 18:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The original poster's question is a bit confusing: I think the first time he said "more uncomfortable", he must have meant "more comfortable" or "less uncomfortable". As to the part about his own preferences, I have no comment.

But as to the question of why society sees it as "less inappropriate for a man to be seen naked by men than by women", the reason seems pretty simple. Society feels that in a situation not intended to be sexual, such as "locker rooms and police searches" as well as medical situations, or in public washrooms for that matter, it would be inappropriate if someone did start having sexual feelings. Which might happen if you're heterosexual and you get naked in the presence of someone of the opposite sex. Or not, but "society" presumes that it's dangerously probable, and also that people are heterosexual. Hence the prohibitions in question. --Anonymous, June 21, 2007, 22:40 (UTC).


 * Indeed. This is the main reason why various governments have excluded known male homosexuals from joining their armies.  The supposed concern is that they will be aroused by the sight of their fellow soldiers naked in the locker rooms, and will proceed immediately to rape them or at least make unwelcome sexual advances.  But on the other hand, it's ok for a gay male to enter the army as long as they don't disclose their sexual orientation.   If they were so incapable of exercising personal control in the company of naked men, this policy would have no effect on their supposed propensity to commit outrageous sexual assaults.  But there you go; governments know best about such matters, don't they.  --  JackofOz 00:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The government is all-wise!! o_o o_o  o_o  <_<  >_>  >_<  X_X --⁪frotht 02:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Battery Recycling
Hello Again, I am here for more expert advice. Most, if not all, local councils are now offering doorstep battery collections, along with the other tins, paper, glass etc. To comply with recycling targets and EU directives.

I imagine that the council A will now pay some ludicrius price to a private firm B who will then ship them to the recycling plant C, most likely on the continent. I was wondering if collection firm B receives a payment from recycling plant C or whether C just charges B less than A paid to B thus leaving B with a profit.

The recycling plant C recovers cadmium, lead, nickel, iron, mangonese, cobalt, copper, plastic etc which are valuable commodities. I think I'm correct in that they also receive a payment from a battery fund which the battery manufacturers pay into (or something like that).

I was wondering if it was worth investing in my own battery recycling collection scheme to hoard many thousand tonnes of batteries until more recycling plants are opened and new ways are found to recover the metals thus giving a good price for old batteries. Scraggy4 18:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Batteries, especially used ones, tend to break down over time. Ten years from now, your stack of batteries might be a unrecyclable lump of corroded metal. --Carnildo 19:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What is it like to be multilingual?
I only speak one language fluently (I do know a little French and German, but not anything to be proud of), but what is it like to be multilingual? When I hear a foreign word i'm familiar with i have to, in my head, translate it into English, is it the same for someone who speaks two languages fluently? If anyone could answer a few questions, i would be insanely grateful!

- If anyone has learnt a language by being totally encapsulated in it, did it all seem like fuzz and then suddenly everything clicked?


 * I think it is more like mostly static at first, and then gradually the static subsides, and the signal-to-noise ratio improves. Marco polo 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

- If you're speaking in a language other than your own, do you translate it in your head as you go?


 * If you are really multilingual, no, you think in the foreign language. Marco polo 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

- Is it easy to switch between speaking two or more languages in a short space of time? (Do you sometimes become 'stuck' in one language?)


 * It depends on how used to each language you are. If you speak both of them daily, you can switch back and forth.  If it has been a while since you spoke one, you don't get stuck, but you may have to search for words.  Marco polo 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

- What language do you 'think' in? And what language do you dream in?


 * If you are multilingual, which language you think in depends on which language you are speaking. If you are thinking without verbalizing, your thoughts may not take verbal form, but if they do, they will probably form in your native language unless you have become more comfortable in a different language.  Ditto for dreaming.  Marco polo 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

- Do you have any tips for someone (me) trying to learn another language, i've been trying to watch translated cartoons but it's all too fast to take in.


 * Cartoons tend to move quickly, as does their language. You might try a more relaxed radio or (better yet) TV/video program.  It wouldn't hurt to use language tapes, dictionaries, etc., for a while first if you are a beginner.  Marco polo 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for any help anyone can give (I understand it's a rather substantial question!)

Thanks Again

-Benbread 18:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite sure about most of those questions, but for the 4th one, I think I know the answer to it. lets say you grew up with the french language, but then learned english in your twenties. French is still your main language, you grew up with it, so you would still think in that language. As for the dreams question, The same goes for that. BUT, the longer you are immersed in the other language, the more you might find yourself thinking/dreaming in it, because you are starting to use that other language more often than your main one. þοŁάṛωοŁf 18:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I asked my brother similar questions years ago. He was born and raised in the States but has spent much of his life in Germany.  His wife and their daughter have spent considerable time in both countries.  All three are at least bi-lingual.  I asked him if conversations stayed in one language or if they switched between languages.  According to him they did switch occaisionally when starting a conversation but that the conversation normally continued in that language for the time that they were speaking.  Although at times the members of the family would mix languages within a sentence by accident.  One example he gave was that past tense verbs would get the German prefix and the English word, such as "gefixed".  The 'ge-' is a past tense prefix added to many German verbs while the 'fixed' is the past tense English.  Dismas |(talk) 20:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My Spanish friend on this subject tells me when he is climaxing with his partner, he invariably exclaims, "Oh God, Oh God", and not, "Mi Dios, Mi Dios". What might other language speakers say, I wonder?


 * My wife (who is French - but who has spend the last half of her life in English-speaking countries) - has two interesting quirks that I believe shed considerable light on what's going on inside her head. Firstly, she can't do arithmetic in English...if she has to add up a long column of numbers, muttering the subtotals as she goes - it's got to be in French.  If you ask her "what is 6 times 7, she has to translate both numbers into French, repeat them back, get the answer (in French) and then translate it back into English.  This all happens very quickly - but it won't 'go away'.  Secondly, when she phones her family in France, for about 15 minutes afterwards, her accent 'slips' back into heavily French tones (normally, she speaks English with a UK-ish accent) and she makes the classic word order mistakes ("The book, green" rather than "The green book") and other subtle mistakes (like messing up the plural of the word "Hair" - which in English is "Hairs" for a few individual hairs - but "Hair" when you are talking about a lot of the stuff).   This leads me to believe that she's truly thinking in English most of the time - but that this is not necessary - so for math problems (where she learned the rote arithmetic facts in school and never learned to 'think them' in English) - she's forced to think in French - and after speaking (and therefore thinking) in French for 20 minutes, it takes a while for her brain to go back to thinking in English and over that period she's still translating French thoughts into English - and making the classic mistakes you make when you do that.  She speaks Italian, Spanish and a little German too - but I don't notice problems when she switches back and forth between those languages and English - which makes sense because she hasn't lived in any of those places long enough to start thinking in those languages....Well, this is just speculation.  When I ask her - she says she's not aware of thinking in any particular language.  SteveBaker 21:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I came to the States in second grade or so, and knew pretty much no English. My parents decided that I won't pick up an accent if they don't teach me any English, and I get complimented on my lack of an accent (as in, I speak general American English) frequently. The way I learned English was through elementary school's ESL, and the way that they did it was to use picture flash cards so we can learn vocabulary for nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc. I was also given some Disney records to listen to (yes, records, this was in the 80s). And gradually, I picked up more and more words in any given sentence, and eventually became fluent in it.
 * I don't translate words back and forth in my head from the two languages.
 * I don't get stuck in one language either. In fact, when I talk to my sister, we speak fluently and use both languages, often in the same sentence. It sounds weird to other people, because we used to get comments about that. Sometimes, I forget words in my native language and have to use English, but I'm a lot more proficient in English nowadays.
 * As for thinking, I generally think in English with rare exceptions, since my level of English is a lot higher than my Mandarin. Although I do count and do math in Chinese, and memorize phone numbers in Chinese, because counting in Chinese is insanely fast for me (all single syllables, I can count from 1-10 in Mandarin probably faster than most people can say one, two, three). Memorizing phone numbers in Chinese has also been bad in some cases though, such as when people ask your phone number and you have to say it in your head in Chinese, and translate it.
 * As for tips, I already mentioned how I learned it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're trying to learn Japanese? But in either case, learning vocabulary probably helps, so you can catch things in speech. Then once you have a small amount of vocabulary at your disposal, you can try to learn the grammar. Then when you listen to that foreign language, you will be able to catch some words, and hopefully, learn how to speak from that as well.
 * --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 00:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In the US we have the benefit of multiple Spanish TV channels. I took some Spanish but did not gain fluency. I find it helpful to have the captions on the Spanish TV chanels, to help with parsing, as would be the case for distinguishing English "I scream" from "ice cream" which may be phonetically equivalent. Edison 05:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My story is similar to Steve Baker's. My ex-wife was born in Australia to Russian-speaking parents who'd migrated here less than a year previously.  They knew very little English (in her father's case, none at all), and they very wisely decided to make no attempt to teach their children any English.  They spoke only Russian at home, and this was my ex's only language until she went to school, where she very quickly picked up English.  She is totally fluent and extremely articulate in both languages, and can switch from one to the other without blinking.  She can even be involved in a high-speed group conversation with some people speaking Russian and others speaking English, without any apparent difficulty.  She is a published poet (English), and has taught Russian to diplomatic staff in advance of their postings to our embassy in Moscow.  When speaking, she never has to think of the word in the other language and translate it back into the language she's using.  When writing, she occasionally has to refer to a dictionary, but that's usually because the word she wants is a little more complex or obscure than the words one tends to use in conversation.  I asked her once about how she thinks, and I recall her saying that she's never conscious of thinking in any particular language. (But I've always suspected that's true of people who've only ever known one language, ie. most people).  --  JackofOz 05:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * People who have been deaf since birth (presumably) don't think in sign language - there have been odd rare cases of children who grew up in extreme isolation who never learned to talk - they could still think. So clearly spoken language isn't necessary for thinking.  It's very reasonable to assume then that people are not aware of thinking in a particular language.  But it's not that simple - my wife's inability to do math in English - despite speaking it fluently (and hearing almost nothing but English) for 30 years says that some processes in the brain are represented linguistically. User:Wirbelwind's experience with doing math in Chinese echoes that experience. SteveBaker 11:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Fluency in a second language is a bit like fluency in specialist jargon: you could translate as you go, but most of the time it's easier not to. Some of the words I've learned over the years are English words and some are French (etc) words; to know a word is to know how to use it in its appropriate context.  – When I was learning French (age 13), I once said trouve instead of find while challenging someone in an argument.  I cannot explain that, and don't remember making a similar error since.  – At age 16 I spent a year in a French-speaking town.  If someone spoke English to me unexpectedly, I often could not process it at first.  – A few years ago I had a brief conversation in Italian; on that occasion I had to do some mental translation, partly because my Italian is weak, partly because I was giving directions in an English-speaking city.  &mdash;Tamfang 16:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I occasionally hear people speaking two languages at once; it amazes me whenever they switch between Spanish and English in the middle of a sentence (the word orders are sometimes incompatible), but evidently some can do it. &mdash;Tamfang 16:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I must say I'm finding this discussion fascinating! I've been learning French for quite a while and I suppose I'm fairly proficient. Sometimes I find myself translating everything I'm saying from English into French, which is quite the reverse of what we are talking about. Eventually I hope to be fluent in French but without immersion it can be very difficult. --Bearbear 15:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you everyone for your responses so far, all your story's have been truly fascinating! Wirbelwind: i'm not learning Japanese (though i can see why you'd think that), i'm trying to learn German - basically because my cousin stayed in Germany for a year and came back fluent, and an German exchange student came over here for about 6 months and just amazes me when she talks, so it's turned it seems to have a strange mysterious persona - Plus i feel i should learn a language after spending 3 years learning French at school and coming out knowing almost nothing (hence my questions on immersion learning!). I do hope some other people can can share some interesting story's. Thanks! -Benbread 20:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Super Paper Mario (a wii game)
Is there any way that I can find the image of the characters "Blumiere" & "Timpani" standing on top of the hill at the end of the game? It's only their silhouettes, but I would like to see it. It plays the image at the end of the credits (I think)

um, try a google image search.--Randoman412 21:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Fastest Race Horse Ever.
I heard a news report of the fastest racing horse ever named Got Country Grip. What are the chances that there is a faster horse and how do they figure that out?


 * I don't know if there is a faster horse - but "how do they figure that out?" would be with a stopwatch over some particular distance. But what makes me doubt such a blanket statement is the question "Fastest over what distance?" - some horses are better at short races - others at longer ones, some like soft ground - others hard.  Some are fast when they run by themselves but get distracted when other horses are nearby - yet others need the challenge of another horse catching up with them to keep the speed piled on.  I'd be surprised if any one horse could claim to be fastest over all distances in all circumstances...but like I said - I don't really know. SteveBaker 21:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's put him up against Secretariat (horse) who won the 1973 Triple Crown and won the Belmont Stakes by 31 lengths, and was unquestionably one of the top athletes of the 20th century. That race was 1.5 miles. Got Country Grip ran 0.1988 miles at 41.55 miles/hour. Secretariat ran the 1973 Belmont Stakes at 37.5 mph, which was 7.5 times the distance. Would Got Country Grip fade halfway to the finish line in the Belmont? I rather think so. Sprinter versus distance runner. Could Secretariat have got up to speed in the short distance? Who could say. Could either have beat Dan Patch while pulling a sulky? Who could say? Edison 05:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Generic drug stores online
Has anyone had experiences with generic drug stores online? any recommendations or the reverse about certain sites? thanks...


 * I'd be weary of those, because there's absolutely no evidence that they have the slightest clue of what they're doing. (messedrocker • talk) 23:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Some are legit, others are not. I'd check to see what country the site is in first.  If it's a country with strong drug regulation, or even pathetic drug regulation, like the FDA in the US, that's better than a country with no regulation at all. StuRat 05:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Male hairstyles
Does anyone know of a good, browsable online database of male hairstyles? I've searched quite a few but they are pretty poor with little information and no catagorising. I thought the internet would give many answers but a fairly simple search is proving quite difficult! Thanks in advance --Bearbear 20:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Does Category:Hairstyles help at all? Dismas |(talk) 21:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is good, but it tends to only list outlandish styles --Bearbear 15:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have any online sources but you could try these. I would suggest visiting a salon. Most of the ones I have been to carry "catalogs" of various hairstyles (for women I know for sure but I am pretty sure for men also) that they would be happy to let you look at. These only cover recent and somewhat popular hairstyles though. Another place that you could try looking would be in a "how to draw people/design characters" book. Many list various general hairstyles for men. 128.196.125.8 22:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A hair catalogue/magazine is probably the best idea. Thanks for the help! --Bearbear 15:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * For interesting facial hair see 137.138.46.155 07:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not my style... hehe! --Bearbear 15:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

video game related question
whats that thing that films video games called? the ones that the people at companys like ign and Gamespy use. Also, where can i buy it?--Randoman412 21:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't know if it is the one those companies use but Fraps is a popular one. There is a trial version which watermarks and the full version unlock can be purchased online. Vespine 22:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure companies use Fraps, since it only works with DirectX and OpenGL. More likely is that they use hardware output to record, such as a VCR, DVR, etc. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Do DVD-RW's work? if so, how?--Randoman412 15:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

DVD-RWs would only burn or play back footage you've already created. The problem with fraps is that it's hardware-intensive software running alongside a hardware-intensive game. One thing you could do is buy a DVD recorder with HDMI/DVI input and output (depending on what your PC monitor uses). You could connect your HDMI cable to the DVD recorder, than another HDMI cable from the DVD recorder to your PC monitor, and use the recorder to record the footage (using none of your PC's resources). You would then rip the DVD to your PC and encode it as an Xvid video. Froglars the frog 17:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Weird Festivals & Events
Hi Guys

I'm trying to collate a list of wierd festivles & events from around the world along with their locations & dates. ie Running of the Bulls in Spain on July 11 & Bog Snorkeling in the UK on July 7 or the one where they throw the tomatos or chase the cheese down the hill.

I couldn't find a list here on wiki

Samarchist 22:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * How about the Gilroy Garlic Festival in Gilroy, California? -- Mwalcoff 23:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Or the World's biggest fish fry in Paris, Tennessee? Dismas |(talk) 00:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Rocky Mountain oysters Festivals struck me as odd when I saw on the TV. I mean, why would you want to eat that!? --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You should probably work in some Wellie wanging on Gumboot Day in Taihape, New Zealand. SteveBaker 02:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There isn't a separate category for festivals/events, but you can find some really weird ones in the list at Unusual articles. 152.16.188.111 03:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC) EDIT: Googling "weird festivals" turns up a LOT of things I would never have imagined.  152.16.59.190 08:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

World Marbles Championship organised by the British Marbles Board of Control. Next championship, Prague, Czech Rep. 21 July.

Gloucester Cheese Rolling, Cooper's Hill,  Next, annual, event 26 May, 200890.14.144.112 08:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)DT
 * Lawn Mower racing(warning involves a lot of cider),Extreme Ironing, Morris Dancinghotclaws 10:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The world Rock, Paper, Scissors championship each fall in Toronto. - SimonP 14:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Every year in Ivrea, Italy, for the last 200 years, they have a "Battle of the Oranges" where they pelt people on carts with tens of thousands of oranges to commemorate no longer having to give the local bigwig the "privilege of the first night" with all new young brides.   --TotoBaggins 17:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a festival in itself but at the Sonoma-Marin County Fair in California, they have an ugliest dog contest. It made the front page of CNN.com today.  Dismas |(talk) 21:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * How about the Mike the Headless Chicken festival in Fruita, Colorado? Would you count Burning Man as a "weird festival"?  Corvus cornix 22:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)