Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 December 17

= December 17 =

The Cat's Meow
I am in a perplexing hypothetical situation. A friend has a cat, gender of cat is male Tonkinese, now my friend feeds the cat and changes his liter. He basically provides the cat with its necessities. But its taken a liking to me, no as my friend puts it his cat loves me more. The cat follows me around and all I do is pet him and talk to him sometimes. Most of the time looks up to me as the dominant cat and like to cuddle with me. Which I reluctantly accept since he emanates this cuteness I cannot explain. After explaining that bit of lively information it got me thinking of a question. In animals especially in cats, what determines who they like more and who they look up to more? [Now you know me as the guy who ask cat questions I think I'm going to take the weirdness trophy] Thank you for taking your time with this oddity.

Always Cardinal Raven (talk) 04:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven
 * Who's to say what goes on in the mind of a cat? I have nothing for you but I know what you mean.  Cats love me.  My wife even refers to me as 'The Cat Whisperer' due to my talent of being able to tame the meanest cats that we encounter.  So, my best answer... Who knows?  Dismas |(talk) 05:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always felt that cats are instinctively very good at recognizing the very best people, and making friends with them. DuncanHill (talk) 05:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Clearly Duncan is correct, because cats like me, as well. But your success with this cat could be due to something like your smell, or it could be that your body language is friendly and non-threatening by cat standards, or perhaps you've just never given the cat cause to distrust you (by, say, taking him to the vet, or holding him when he was unwilling, or leaving him home alone). Most cats seem to like people who aren't too pushy with them, so that could be it, too. Cats are weird, though, and purebred cats are very weird, so there's probably no clear answer to this question. --Fullobeans (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I read the cat body language thing and all the ones that "symbolize" relaxation, happiness, submission, and what not happen with me and my friends cat. He likes me a little to much. He's kneaded near me once or twice. And the only thing I have ever done for him is feed him once or twice, talk to him, and pat him or smooth down his hair. I must be trustful. :) All though I do agree with the smell and what not, that may be a part of it. I always find the cat sleeping on something I have touched or used. Then again all animals seem to like me, had a couple of stray dogs walk up to me with friendly faces. Then my next question is, why do they do it? Thank you

Always Cardinal Raven (talk) 06:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

Cats are very strange animals, many people belive they are sentient. i was like you once, cats loved me, and always used to come and sit on my lap and i liked them, then i went to Auschwitz, they birds do not sing there, they only animal i saw was a cat rolling around in the ashes. they are evil (and some frogs trapped in a deep cemented pit, trying in vain to get out) makes you think abut reincarnation huh? anyways, cats hate me now, hiss and run up the curtains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.61 (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Clyde Shipyard Alexander Stephen & Sons Linthouse
My father, Peter Watters McLean, was fatally injured while employed as a riveter's holder-on at Stephen's of Linthouse on 11th february 1938.

I should be obliged if someone could provide the name of the ship on the stocks at that date.

Many thanks.

Peter W. McLean. Caracas Venezuela. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.84.244.232 (talk) 04:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't directly answer your question, but the archives of Alexander Stephen and Sons are held by the University of Glasgow Archive Service. Their website is at . I had a quick search, and they seem to have quite extensive records. An email to them, explaining your request might help you find out more about your father. I do hope you are successful, DuncanHill (talk) 04:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Army Regulations
Uniform wear and appearance for the U.S. Army is prescribed in Army Regulation 670-1 (AR670-1), whereas physical training is covered in Army Regulation 21-20 (AR21-20). Is there a method to the numbering system, similar to how the Dewey Decimal System numbers according to subjects? I need to memorize dozens of ARs, TMs (Technical Manuals), and FMs (Field Manuals) and it would be easier to remember the numbers if they held some meaning. Thanks for the help.71.83.252.59 (talk) 08:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * One guide is at http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_publications_guide.php. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Fan-belts and Modern Cars
Do modern cars have Fan belts? I think there is a belt for the power-steering but not sure what else. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The timing belt, maybe, though some cars call it a timing chain. There's also the serpentine belt, which is a single belt that does the job of several separate ones such as belts for the water pump, air conditioner, power steering, and so on.  So, your mileage may vary.  --- OtherDave (talk) 12:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Most vehicles now use electric motors on the engine cooling fans, so there is no fan belt. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Fan belts are inherently inefficient because they often cause the fan to cool the car when it doesn't need to be cooled (eg when you are starting off on a cold day) - and they often don't cool the car when it does need it (eg if you've been on a long drive at high speeds and you suddenly stop and shut off the engine). Neither of those things are good for the engine and running the fan unnecessarily wastes fuel.  Replacing the belt-driven fan with a thermostatically controlled electric fan enables it to run only exactly when it's needed - and that's good for economy and engine life.  Once electric motors got small enough and cheap enough - they replaced fan belts in almost all cars in just a few years.  Gradually, some of the other belt-driven components are getting the same treatment - so (for example) my MINI Cooper'S has an electric power steering pump so that the pump isn't being run when it's not needed.  Since belts wear out faster than electric motors and they also misbehave by stretching and slipping - this is a really good thing! SteveBaker (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Dancing cat
My mother has a cat that occasionally turns its paws to the side and does a sort of side-to-side dance while wiggling it's tail like a rattlesnake. It appears he does it when he's particularly happy to see you, but no one we know has ever seen this sort of behavior. Has anyone seen this before or can anyone hazard a guess to its meaning? The vet wasn't helpful. - Mgm|(talk) 11:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If it makes any difference, the cat was adopted from the animal shelter. - Mgm|(talk) 11:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll do my public duty and post that message that no one ever seems to notice: No medical advice questions. Blah blah-blah... flaminglawyerc 12:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I really can't say I consider wondering why your cat does a funny dance to be a medical advice question.~ mazca  t 12:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a moot point regardless, we've already seen the vet about it as I explained in the question. - Mgm|(talk) 17:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, nothing even remotely like medical advice is being asked for here. Flaming, if people ignore you when you post that notice, it's because you "shout wolf" too many times and people get used to your warnings being silly, so learn to ignore them. StuRat (talk) 16:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Question: How many bones are there in the human body? Answer: We cannot give you medical advice. Ask a doctor. | Question: What is the pH of human blood? Answer: We cannot give any medical advice. Ask a doctor. --- Sorry to jump on the band wagon here, but I've been waiting to point out that we at the Wikipedia Reference Desk need to really clarify what exactly constitutes medical advice and what doesn't. By the seems of it, people seem to cry foul far too easily at any question that is even remotely medical-related. My opinion that as long as a question is not seeking advice ("advice" meaning that instructions are given) then we should be free to ask for any medical references we seek. So something like, "I have had pains in my tummy for the past few days, what could it be?" is arguably acceptable, with answers like menstrual cramps, constipation, stomach ache, pregnancy etc. But I then see the problem - what if it was something like a cancerous tumour, or some important detail was not given?? So how do we find a balance? But I don't see why most medical-related questions should be blocked. :) Rfwoolf (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The dancing could just be an individual quirk, and the tail wiggling may be the cat scenting it's territory. The Cat behavior article may have more info. Chemical Weathering (talk) 13:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you mean "turns its paws to the side"? I'm having a hard time picturing this. --Fullobeans (talk) 15:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Instead of putting its nails on the front (like his paws normally stand), he moves his paws so the nails/claws on his left paw point to the left and those on his right paw point to the right. - Mgm|(talk) 16:56, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Why don't you make a video of the dancing cat and put it on Youtube, so we can see what you mean? Lova Falk (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is just a personal observation, but lots of cats do seem to have their own little neurotic quirks, which are often based in reproductive or territorial behavior or left over from kittenhood. For instance, I once had a cat who, when petted, would obsessively knead whatever he was sitting on while licking or chewing on one spot-- clearly a nursing instinct. A more common example is a cat sticking its butt up in the air when petted, which is a mating behavior. CW may have hit on something with the "scenting its territory" suggestion; if you've ever seen a male cat spray, there's a distinctive tail wiggle and stepping motion (and perhaps paw-turning?) which goes along with the act. Even if your cat is neutered and doesn't actually spray anything, he may involuntarily go through the motions of spraying in response to certain stimuli. Another possibility, from this article: "The [female cat] will signal her willingness to mate with a unique posture: head down, forelegs bent, rear quarters raised to expose the vulva ( this raised posture is called lordosis), with the tail raised and held to the side of the body.... Her rear legs will tread rhythmically, as if walking in place." In a situation like yours, the cat's behavior has little to nothing to do with an actual desire to mate, and more to do with rituals which are hard-wired into the animal's brain and which emerge at odd times due to a kind of behavioral short circuit. Male cats may exhibit female behaviors, and vice-versa. For some reason I can't find any videos of the aforementioned behaviors, but perhaps you'll have better luck? --Fullobeans (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Some love cat dancing. Edison (talk) 20:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If you would like to see a dog doing a similar dance, Google for "The Rufus Shuffle" (using the quotation marks) and check the top Flickr hit. -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Swimming Pool "weir"
..the geniuses we have in this world..

I have shopped around for a few swimming pool products (shock treatments, chlorines, algacides, etc), and a lot of them keep on referring to the 'weir', as in "..and empty the contents into the weir".

I have googled, checked the dictionary, and checked wikipedia, and they ALL seem to talk about things like "lowhead dams" and things I definitely don't have in my swimming pool.

The problem is I know that these are your average swimming pool products, not your average "giant dam" products or "massive luxury pool resort" products where you would have something like a separate dam.

So what am I missing? What 'weir' does it mean? Is it the filter, the filter basket, the swimming pool itself?

Thanks Rfwoolf (talk) 17:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I copy/pasted the title of this question into Google, and the first hit mentions our weir in the fourth paragraph. Clicking on "Images" got me this picture. The weir is the little dam-like thingie that the water slops over to get into the skimmer. It looks like they mean that you should dump the stuff into the skimmer. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's like a regular weir but swimming pool sized... At least in my experience, the filters go into little pots at the side of pools behind such weirs and water sloshes out of them.  The instructions should probably read "behind the weir".  I'm not sure if all pool filtration systems have such weirs, I suspect not.  TastyCakes (talk) 17:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. Well this pool is your average swimming pool, but directly adjacent to the pool on the ground level is a hatch, if I pick it up there is "the great sucking vortex thing" that is sucking water OUT and AWAY from my pool. Attached to "the great sucking thing" is the thick hose that runs into the pool with a device on the end that moves around the pool sucking up water. Connecting "the great sucking thing" to the pool is a channel of water. I take it that that is the @#$#ing weir or "lowhead dam". First of all it doesn't even look like a damn, secondly why don't they tell me to just pour into "the great sucking thing"? From what I gather "the great sucking thing" is called a skimmer, so they should say "..and empty the contents near the skimmer". Thanks for the answers, hopefully this question will help future googlers as stupid as me find out what the hell a swimming pool "weir" really is. Rfwoolf (talk) 20:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

cats again
there seem to be loads of questions about cats today so heres another. i knew a lady who was probably in her mid to late 50s, and she had this cat, that she got as a kitten when she was a child. the cat was massive, but just kept going and when i saw it, it was almost as old as her, 55, maybe 60 years old, it was withered, and had no teeth or claws, it was very shabby and grey, skin and bones, so, how long can s cat live? what is the average? would this be some sort of record, and if so what country was the oldest one in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.61 (talk) 19:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the Daily Mail, the oldest known cat is 27. A cat older than 50?  I wonder if your acquaintance was pulling your leg... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the oldest cat on record lived to somewhere in its 30's. It's seems unlikely that this cat was 55 years old. How sure are you about those numbers? If the lady were perhaps a little younger than you thought, say 50, and "as a child" meant when she was 16, that makes the cat 34, an extremely old cat, and near the record, but believable. 55 seems rather unbelievable to me.
 * A 60-year-old cat would be truly unheard-of, yeah. Average cats live around 15 years, I'd say, in an average domestic environment: of the assorted cats I've had, the youngest one to die of apparent "old age" was 12, the oldest is now 20 and appears to really be on her last legs. I've heard of cats living to their late twenties on rare occasions, but I've never personally run into any cats that reached 30, let alone older than that. ~ mazca  t 19:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the 2002 Guinness World Records (the latest edition I have), the 2 oldest cats on record were both aged 34. One died in the UK in 1957, the other in the USA in 1998.  Guinness says "This is at least twice a cat's average lifespan". --  JackofOz (talk) 19:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Was this lady getting a bit forgetful? Perhaps it ws just like the one she had as a child, and her memory left her at times. That can happen with dementia. If this is the case, then a 25-year-old cat, with this one also being 25, would add up perfectly. Sort of like how some people getgrandaprents confused with their grandchildren in villages, if the man from their childhood looked just like the old man who was once their schoolmate. Which explains all those poeple such as Old Tom Parr.209.244.187.155 (talk) 20:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Bed assembly
This is a long shot, but I figure it won't hurt to ask. I have a 1940s bed that I'm trying to assemble. It has a head board, a foot board, two side rails, and 5 slats. The side rails fit into the head and foot boards using hardware that is embedded and looks like this. There are no bolts, screws, or fasteners, and unlike typical four poster beds, there isn't a hidden recessed bolt that goes through the post into the side rails (like this). I repeat, it does not have those. It appears the only thing holding the bed together is gravity (the weight of the person and mattress pushing down on the side rails into the slots in the head and foot board). The slats just rest on the side rails (do they need to be screwed down or anything?). So my main question is, does this seem safe? Am I missing parts for the assembly? There are hooks (sort of like this) on the side rails and boards. There is one at each post of the head and foot board, and two towards the middle of each side rail (total of 8 in all). Do you think I need to get some rope and loop it through these hooks to pull the bed together tight? Do the hooks have anything to do with the assembly? I can post pictures if necessary, but I'm hoping someone may have some idea what I'm talking about or be familiar with assembling older beds. I know it's a long shot, but thanks for any ideas.-Andrew c [talk] 19:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hardware stores still sell the hardware for attaching siderails to head/footboard.If the hooks fit snugly it should do fine. Some old beds have sides and head/footboards married from different original beds, so they so not fit stably. In this case, I have reinforced them with L brackets and screws. Anchoring the slats is not a bad idea. since if a child ever jumps up and down on the bed, the slats will move around and the mattress and springs will fall down under the bed. Using wire or clothesline and looping it through the slats might be a good idea if they are not otherwise attached to the siderails. Edison (talk) 20:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I contacted one of the leading commercial websites dealing with antique beds, and they said "I believe the extra hooks most likely had something to do with bedlinens (i.e. dustruffle or tie-backs for hangings)." They also said that the 20th century/"modern" method of assembly was inferior to the 19th century menthod which they use on their beds ("mortise, tenon and bedbolt construction.") And I seem to agree. One of the embedded hooks on a side rail is quite loose. Thanks, Edison, for the idea of using L-brackets at the corners. That may help with the loose side rail. -20:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm certain you have everything you need. Yes, it's gravity and the weight of the rails and mattress (plus a fair amount of friction!) that holds the rails in place.  Be certain that the hookplates (one on each end of each rail) are not loose, and likewise ensure that the pins on which they rest in the corner posts of the head- and foot-boards are all present.  (A small kitchen knife is typically the tool of choice for this task, just make sure you can hear the metal-on-metal "tink" sound where it belongs even if you can't see the pins in that very narrow slot!)
 * You can fix the slats to the side rails if you wish, but there's rarely a need to do so. If you /want/ to do something ("so you'll sleep better"), a small screw or lightweight nail is sufficient.  You only need to keep the slat from sliding out of position, not actually anchor it to keep it from coming /off/ the rail.
 * Finally, the side rails were probably stout 2x4s when new, and most of the time will have become even more rigid over time. Still, if you wish to tie the midpoints of each rail together, you can do so.  You need nothing more than a 1x2 (a "furring strip" in the US) long enough to extend "outside to outside" of the side rails; position each end under the rail and put one screw upwards into each rail.  This will have the added benefit of keeping the rails from twisting out of position -- but if they haven't done so by now, they're not going to do so next week, either.
 * HTH, --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The hookplates are loose on one of the siderails. :(-Andrew c [talk] 00:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * When I was a child, I slept on an old (1920's/30's) bed which had head and foot boards joined by two metal rails (sorry, I can't remember how the rails were connected to the head and foot boards). Resting on the side rails was an open but heavy frame containing a complicated pattern of springs.  Around the edge of this frame were a series of eyelets like these mentioned previously which were used to attach a rough piece of cloth.  The purpose of the cloth was to reduce wear on the underside of the heavy horse hair mattress which sat on top of the frame.  Astronaut (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I have just such a bed, made by Ethan Allen (the furniture company, not the dead guy). The wooden pieces are intentionally left free to move, as that allows for greater flexibility, and thus greater "give" and comfort.  For example, when you flop on the bed, the slats bow downward, and slide slightly towards the inside edge of the rails.  If they were attached to the rails in a way that didn't allow any motion, the bed would be much stiffer and more stress would be applied to the slats and rails, especially at the fastener.  This might shorten the life of the bed.  A fastener that allows the slats to slide perpendicular to the rails might help. StuRat (talk) 17:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC)