Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 February 21

= February 21 =

Driving during hangover
Is it safe to operate a motor vehicle the day after drinking, whilst suffering from a moderate hangover? Acceptable (talk) 00:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A classic YMMV. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * While driving under the influence, the alcohol apparently affects one's sense of distance. While suffering form a hangover, does the same phenomenon exist, or is it merely just a headache? Acceptable (talk) 01:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Without getting into what you consider "moderate" and "safe", you can check out this abstract, which basically says what Tagishsimon said only in more words. Some other articles/abstracts I looked at suggested that visual/spatial skills as well as "vigilance" and reaction time could be negatively effected during a hangover, which along with symptoms such as fatigue and diarrhea would arguably make driving less than optimally safe. On the whole it sounds like hangover research is a somewhat neglected area of scientific inquiry... --Azi Like a Fox (talk) 05:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're not sure whether you are fit to drive, you are not fit to drive.--Shantavira|feed me 09:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. If you have to ask, you're not. A bit like torture.... 130.88.140.5 (talk) 10:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, probably not. Scroll down for the section "And the morning after..." AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia, cannot give Medical or Legal Advice Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That comma, is completely unnecessary. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is, but its use reminds me, of William Shatner. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 15:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's okay to operate these vehicles. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly, alcohol does take some time to pass through/be absorbed by your body. When you have a hangover, your body may still be in the midst of processing it, and you may still register a blood/alcohol reading at a level that is illegal in your jurisdiction. I advise caution. Steewi (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

circle number 53
Do technical magazines still have "bingo cards", or did the Web make them obsolete? —Tamfang (talk) 09:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The web seems to have pretty much done them in (although I think I saw one a year or two ago).


 * Atlant (talk) 18:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Map of Ethiopia
How recent is the map on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia?72.201.46.229 (talk) 13:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Take a look at the image page. There you'll see that the map dates from 1999. Tonywalton Talk 13:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Or if that wasn't the map you meant, click on one of the other maps to go it its image page and see what date is given. --Anonymous, 00:28 UTC, February 22, 2008.

Cats in Downing Street
in an earlier question the topicof chief mouser to the cabinet office was brought up. ihad a look over that article and i seemed toimply that edward heath had to leave his cat in downing street. was this the case? 81.96.160.6 (talk) 13:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't know about this specific case, but cats are often left behind when one moves. They are very territorial and it can be difficult for them to settle away from their "base". Not impossible, but sometimes difficult.90.0.4.87 (talk) 16:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)DT


 * See Humphrey (cat), also Chief mouser to the cabinet office, Sybil (cat), etc etc. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Registering a death
What happens if you don't register it within five days? :P D\=&lt; (talk) 16:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You could dig through the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 to find out. It seems that you could be fined according to this, however please bear in mind that Wikipedia does not offer legal advice - that Act may well have been superceded by something else. OPSI is thataway. Tonywalton Talk 17:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Section 21(3) Any person who registers any death, or causes any death to be registered, in contravention of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [level 1 on the standard scale]. (Which is £200, according to Standard scale) --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Domestic plumbing question
What is an actuator valve? Does it have another name? If mine is sticking would that account for the fact that I am too warm and the hot water is cold? 91.104.24.142 (talk) 17:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See Thermostatic Radiator Valve? I'd need more information to be of any help troubleshooting, but I could make some stupid jokes right now if you want. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No it is not near a radiator. It is near the cistern and has something to do with central heating and hot water - but I am unsure what. 91.104.24.142 (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Could this be related to Solenoid valves? --Onorem♠Dil 17:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Very likely. Thank you. Probably a motorised 2 way zone valve with a defective solenoid switch. 91.104.24.142 (talk) 17:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)Is this a combi boiler (one that has no hot tank and heats both central heating and hot water, also known as "tankless" heater, according to Water heating)? If so, you my be thinking about a diverter valve. This (in essence) "senses" when the hot tap is turned on and diverts cold water from your water main through the boiler to be heated. When the hot tap's off the diverter allows the boiler to heat the central heating loop instead. looks like a useful site. Tonywalton Talk 17:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a boiler and a high pressure cistern called a Megaflow. 91.104.24.142 (talk) 17:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Banning from a state
How does that work? Can a government ban someone from entering a state? Or a city? Or county? Bellum et Pax (talk) 19:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Most national governments can deny entry to those they think shouldn't be there. Or do you mean state as in one of the United States? DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The US maintains a No Fly List / watch list to prevent some tens of thousands of people to enter the USA by plane. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy and Cat Stevens seem to have been two names on the list.
 * As you are referencing cities, counties and states I assume you are referring to individual states of the USA. I assume that crossing the state boundaries does not require a passport.  So it would not be enforceable to ban a traveller on these levels.
 * If by state you refer to a nation the feasibility is subject to control at border crossings. In the EU you can travel from Portugal to Poland and from Sweden to Sicily without any control of your identity, so a single EU state can not effectively ban a traveller who has crossed the Schengen line.
 * BTW, the last time I flew from Australia to Europe I landed in Frankfurt, Germany, took a connecting flight to Vienna and sleepily walked through the EU residents gate. So, the system has a few holes.
 * Ooops, name and address of this poster will be withheld to protect the innocent and to prosecute the nocent. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The US Department of State used to forbid USSR citizens to enter certain counties; sometimes because they contain sensitive facilities, sometimes as tit-for-tat for arbitrary travel restrictions imposed by the USSR. I assume this sort of thing still happens.  &mdash;Tamfang (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course a government can ban a person from entering the country, and they should have that power, otherwise what's national defence all about. For example, Australia still bans David Irving, and at one time banned Gerry Adams.  One of the few times I agreed with John Howard was when he said "We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances in which they come" (how that philosophy has been applied has not always met with my agreement, however).  As for bans on entering internal states and cities, that would depend on the country.  In Australia, I don't think the states have any power to ban a person from crossing the state border, which is why the borders are entirely unguarded and there is no toll to be paid.  I think this comes, paradoxical as it may seem, from the "External affairs" power in the Constitution, which is vested in the Commonwealth government, not the states, and also the constitutional guarantee of "Free trade" between the states.  Australian cities certainly can't prevent a person from entering.    --  JackofOz (talk) 23:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Expanding on JackofOz: David Irving was (probably still is) banned from entering Austria.  He was arrested in Styria, a southern province, in 2005 and served part of a prison sentence.
 * So I must assume that individual states of the EU can, indeed, ban individuals from entering their territory, even if the person is resident of another EU member state.
 * Sorry for the disinformation in my posting above. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I really meant more how like for example the Simpsons are banned from every state but North Dakota or something. Bellum et Pax (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

psst...The Simpsons are fictional ;) I know some places won't let you in if you've been to countries they don't like-an Israeli stamp will kibosh you from most Arab countries and America isn't too keen if you've got Cuban stamps in your passport Lemon martini (talk) 17:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I doubt US border authorities are that concerned about Cuban stamps, since plenty of Canadians vacation in Cuba, and I've never heard of any of them getting harassed for it in the U.S. I was surprised when watching the movie Ray that Ray Charles was banned from performing in Georgia for refusing to play before a segregated audience. I didn't see how someone could be banned from performing in a state. Well, I just Googled it, and it turns out the filmmakers made that part up. He did refuse to play a segregated concert hall, although he made the decision beforehand and didn't show up. But he was never "banned" from playing in Georgia.


 * A jurisdiction could in effect ban someone by issuing an arrest warrant for the person and allowing him or her to leave before getting arrested. This is presumably what happens in the movies when the judge or sheriff tells someone to leave town. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 12:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

PETA scam ?!
Url is cancerproject.org

This sounds like a PETA and/or PETA like scam, since it claims all meat will kill you via cancer and it heavily promotes "vegatarianisim". Sounds like PETA to me, but I want to be sure. 65.173.105.203 (talk) 19:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know why you'd assume that this has anything to do with PETA. Most of the world's hundreds of millions of vegetarians don't have any affiliation with PETA.  It looks like The Cancer Project's strongest affiliation is with the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "scam." Mainstream organizations like the American Dietetic Association acknowledge that vegetarian diets lower the risk of many kinds of cancer.  See Vegetarianism.  MrRedact (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=cancerproject.org
 * owned by (http://www.pcrm.org/about/). Look at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_Committee_for_Responsible_Medicine) in particular the section on 'relationship with PETA' - looks like there is some criticism of it. I have zero (read none, nothing, not an iota, nowt, bugger all, nada, zip) knowledge on either PETA, this firm or anything else - but a quick search around suggests there is a potentially interesting link between the organisations. ny156uk (talk) 20:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There have been allegations of links between PCRM and PETA, mainly through Neal Barnard. In a 2004 article about connections between animal rights groups, The Observer described PCRM as a "quasi-scientific organisation part-funded by PETA.", but PCRM deny any formal links. PCRM is certainly not above using tactics similar to the animal rights groups to get their message out, but in this instance the relationship between health and vegetarianism is not exactly controversial. Rockpock  e  t  21:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, it looks like it is possible to establish an indirect relationship between PETA and the Cancer Project. I still wouldn't characterize the Cancer Project as a "scam," though.  A scam involves convincing people of a bunch of made-up nonsense that has no basis in reality.  In contrast, I don't see any obvious factual errors in the information presented on the Cancer Project's web site.  In particular, the information in the "Diet and Cancer Research" section of their web site looks very thoroughly supported by references to the research literature.  MrRedact (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I glanced at the page you sent us to. Where does it say "all meat will kill you via cancer"? I didn't see that. But I did notice the Humane Charity Seal of Approval at the bottom. There is a clear conflict of interest there. No matter how good veggies may be for us, I'd prefer to get my information about any cancer-fighting benefits they may have from a group that was exclusively concerned with helping human beings survive, and not just when it doesn't inconvenience animals. The layout of the two sites is similar, too. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I may offer a personal observation. I had some conversations with Neal Barnard and another representative of PCRM while re-writing his article. While, as Milkbreath says, there is clearly potential for COI in their belief that meat = murder, these people are nevertheless health professionals. As long as you remain aware of what their agenda is then you can still use them as a source of information. The people that will tell you they are propagating a scam are the Center for Consumer Freedom, not exactly the most reliable of organisations themselves. The truth is, as is usually the case, somewhere in between the extremes. Rockpock  e  t  22:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I normally successfully resist the temptation to engage in debate on the reference desks, but this time I don't want silence to imply consent. Give me a break. Animal-rights people can't do science. Have they thoroughly studied the potential cancer-fighting properties of eating live monkey brains on the half-skull or swallowing viable chimpanzee embryos? I doubt it. Give me another break, please. Mark me down as a neanderthal or whatever, and don't even try to convert me, thanks. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm no supporter of AR (Hell, the PCRM people spent most of the time accusing me of working for the CCF!), but the facts are the facts. Barnard may be an advocate, but he is also a bona fide clinician has published work in respectable, peer reviewed journals demonstrating the benefits of a meat free diet. There are literally hundreds of studies showing the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, including lower cancer risks. You are free to believe whatever you like, but with respect to the original question, dismissing the message because you don't like some of the messengers is not a good strategy. Rockpock  e  t  23:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't believe you're getting me to respond. You're good. I don't know the messengers, and I'd probably like them if I was sitting next to them on a plane. And I'm sure we should all eat a more Japanese diet or whatever. All I'm saying is that I reject out of hand any "science" performed by people who have an agenda that overrides the search for truth. --Milkbreath (talk) 00:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is understandable. But few modern scientists are in a position where the search for truth is their only and over-riding concern. Agendas come in all sorts of forms, be it to win a Nobel Prize, make sure their funding renewed, get their paper out before the R01 renewal deadline, stoke their considerable ego, get their name in the media, get laid, get tenure, get their pet theory accepted by the scientific community while making sure that shit in Cambridge (you know, the one whose data is at complete odds with yours) is humiliated and will have to go and work in industry. I would probably trust the guy whose cards are on the table, over the smug bastard who claims to do it for the sake of mankind. I'm saying this as one of the smug bastards who say they do it for the sake of mankind. Rockpock  e  t  02:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent riposte, as far as it goes. All you bastards bear watching, then, or next thing you know you'll be genetically modifying me. (I guess you've seen the movie Life Story in which Watson is so busy drooling over Rosalind Franklin that he misses the bit about the water.) --Milkbreath (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, you've got it right there. And yes, science is a excellent backdrop for human drama that is sadly under-represented in the arts. Life Story is about as good as it gets. Watson is one of my heroes. He is a brilliant, brilliant man, but oh so flawed. Rockpock  e  t  07:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Cost of Ownership for PHEV
I have read through the pages of the Pirus Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle and others. While MPG is stated, no where is the a comparison made to the dollar cost (in elecricity) to gain the additional milage, compaired to the dollar cost of the gasoline that would have otherwise been purchased to achive this. I interested in a $/mi cost, based on an average KWh electic cost, and an average gasoline per gallon cost.thanks 69.109.231.177 (talk) 21:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See Plug-in hybrid. MrRedact (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Lemon for sinuses
I heard a rumour that lemons and oranges can be used to treat congested sinuses due to their acidic content. Is it true? If so, how does it work? Acceptable (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Both oranges and lemons are rich in vitamin C, which is good for colds. Vranak (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, there's not a lot of evidence that it helps colds. --Panoptik (talk) 23:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I did check our Wikipedia article before posting -- if you are confident in your assertion you may want to update it. Vranak (talk) 19:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I asked on these pages about the "acidic" element of these fruits affecting my arthritus and was firmly slapped down by someone saying they were not acidic! Ah, cant win 'em all.--Johnluckie (talk) 07:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * With a lot of experience in the health field I cannot see any way in which oranges and/or lemons can be beneficial to congested sinuses. Many people in the south of Spain eat copious amounts of oranges in the winter and spring and this does not appear to affect the amount of blocked sinuses. And well said Panoptik, vitamin C is useless in the treatment of the symptoms of a cold. This must hold the record for the most widely held medical myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Avery (talk • contribs) 12:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * contrary to the above, I used to get a cold every time anyone else got one, then I started to drink a litre of acidic fruit juice per week, and now have not had a cold or flu or been sick in any way in about 3 years. I put down to Vit C completely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.191.136.3 (talk) 13:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fairly recent research suggests that regular Vitamin C supplements do little to prevent colds, although a large dose at the start of the cold may possibly help. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hot lemon drinks make your head feel clearer when you are drinking them. I think that is why so many cold and flu remedies come in this form. The hot lemon gives a feeling of quick relief before the drugs could possibly work. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Military" lingo.
Not sure if this goes here, in Language, or Humanities... anyway, does anyone know if this has any truth to it? I'm doubtful, because this dictionary strikes me as a more reliable source, and I can't find "Roger", "Copy", or "Wilco". :/ I've heard it in movies and games, read it in books and magazines, and written it all over the web (!), but the official dictionary doesn't have it... Does anyone have any knowledge of this topic? Thanks in advance. · AndonicO  Hail!  23:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The Oxford English Dictionary supports the dyerlabs webpage assertions (at least for the world wilco), but states that it is military slang. The DoD dictionary may be official, but it lacks breadth; it is not a dictionary of record, as the OED is, and apparently omits slang. What en excellent word slang is, apropos nothing. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, slang, of course... Thanks very much, Tagishsimon. · AndonicO  Hail!  23:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * FWIW, "read" means you heard the transmission, "copy" suggests you understand the significance of what you've been told. "Readback" is when you repeat an instruction back to the controller to show that you heard it correctly (or not, as the case may be).  None of this is strictly military terminology; it's used by civilian pilots too. FiggyBee (talk) 02:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it's more radio-lingo than military-lingo. --antilivedT 03:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

See procedure word. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Some of these terms have certainly been widely used in aviation and space exploration. The New York Times June 6, 1944 in "A handy glossary of invasion terms" said that "Roger" meant message understood and "Wilco" meant will comply. A quick search did not show these terms in a two-way radio context before World War 2. Yahoo!Answer says that "Roger" is from an obsolete phonetic alphabet representing the letter "R" to stand for message Recieved, while "Wilco" means "Will comply." The Charleroi Mail (Pennsylvania) of February 12, 1946, page 8 (via Newspaperarchive.com) in the article "Broadcasting" encouraged police to adopt these terms by starting to use transmission such as "Hello Desk, Roger on your transmission, Wilco and out." The article says this "short, snappy" method of transmission was jointly developed by American and British signal corps men, to save time and batteries while getting messages across quicker. The article said these terms were not yet in common use by police. From the first Moon landing (1969) "107:54:09 Armstrong: Roger. Go ahead, Houston." "107:54:11 McCandless: Roger, Tranquility. We're coming up in about 6 minutes on GET of 108. If you'd like to start your event timer, we can give you a hack at 108:00. Over." "107:54:27 Armstrong: Wilco (meaning 'Will comply')." Then from shuttle Columbia's last flight (2003): "COLUMBIA: We copy, Houston....COLUMBIA: Roger that, Houston....CAIN: Copy....." and the last transmission of Columbia: "COLUMBIA (Commander Rick Husband): 'Roger, buh.'" An example from avaition is United Airlines Flight 232 which crash landed in 1989 : "Sioux City: United 232 heavy, roger, standby ??" and after a suggestion from the other end, "Sioux City: United 232 heavy, wilco, sir, and if you can continue that left turn, to about a 220 heading, sir, that'll take you right to the airport." Edison (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, lot of research there. Thanks, that's helpful. · AndonicO  Hail!  11:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)