Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 June 12

= June 12 =

Chocolate and Coffee
Are there any northern varieties of plants used to make chocolate and coffee? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 00:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Chicory was used as a coffee substitute during World War II. Though by all accounts it wasn't very nice. (If this what you mean by northern varieties i.e. plants that can grow in cooler climes). Fribbler (talk) 00:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Chicory was also used as a (partial) coffee substitute in the UK during a time of high coffee prices in the eighties. And no, it doesn't taste very nice. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Depending what you mean by "cooler climes", you could also look at carob tree. Grutness...wha?  06:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Chicory is getting a bum rap in this thread. In the U.S, "French Market" coffee is sold nationally. It is a blend of coffee and chicory, sold at a higher price than pure coffee.`, a mixture of coffee beans and "French chicory." The printing on the can says that the Dutch introduced the admixture of chicory into coffee in the 1600's,, and that a coffee/chicory mixture is drunk in Europe which has a "stronger, darker less bitter brew" with less caffeine than coffee. Recommend cream/milk with it. I add some of this French Market blend to coffee and find it improves the flavor. History of coffee/chicory at their website:  Edison (talk) 15:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

UPI reports Hostile UFO Attack
Where can this be placed? In this, the UPI said that a Romanian fighter plane was hit by UFOs. This is all over the place.


 * Where can this be placed ? 65.173.104.109 (talk) 02:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I cannot place this in the Romanian article at all. It is protected with a View Source indicating that I can't place it. 65.173.104.109 (talk) 02:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I cannot place this in any realevent article at all. They're all protected. 65.173.104.109 (talk) 03:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way. This is a GREAT website. 65.173.104.109 (talk) 03:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's the simple answer - it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. It's a single news item that certainly doesn't belong in an article on Romania, or jet fighters, and probably not even UFOs. If you can find a few reliable, independent sources for it, you might be able to get it an article on Wikinews. Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!) 03:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello there, UPI is United Press International. Same as the Associated Press - AP. 65.173.104.109 (talk) 03:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Romanian govt. NOT a reliable source ?! 65.173.104.109 (talk) 03:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that UPI has filed it under their 'odd news' category, it seems that they are taking it with an appropriate level of skepticism. Also, the phrase 'unidentified flying object' means 'something we can't identify flying through the air'&mdash;not 'little green men'.  It appears that the entire story is "A military jet crashed after a an apparent collision with an object or objects that have not yet been identified."  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hah! Could have been frozen wastes dumped from a restroom on a high-flying jetliner for all we know. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear what has been reported is that two planes hit airborne objects that have not (yet) been identified. The press called them "unidentified flying objects" which is technically true but conjures up pictures of flying saucers (if nothing else the objects were presumably a good deal smaller than your typical flying saucer since the planes survived). Nothing, even in what is reported, indicates a "hostile alien attack". I agree that the answer to "where does this belong on Wikipedia" is "nowhere" unless evidence comes to light that this is more than just an object impact. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews on UFO Incident
Seen this on WikiNews. they have more info on this matter, incl. another website. Looks we may have a major UFO incident since Captain Mantell was allegedly killed by a UFO in 1947. 65.173.104.109 (talk) 20:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 1947: Captain Mantell allegedly killed by a hostile UFO
 * 2008: UFO attacks Romanian fighter plane


 * 65.173.104.109 (talk) 21:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Now, can this be placed, since all all pertainable articles are protected from any editing ?! 65.173.104.109 (talk) 21:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What is the rush? The incident is reported on WikiNews, which seems reasonable as it is news, of a sort. But there is little or nothing to go on for an encyclopedia article. The notability of the incident is unclear and the facts are unclear and may not be verifiable. Let's wait, see what develops, and then see if there is anything encyclopedic that comes out of it. - EronTalk 21:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

prostitution network
There seems to be a form of prostitution I could not find in any of the Wikipedia articles (save possibly the article on groupies) that is based on an informal network of girls who stay with one guy for awhile and will then move on to another guy connected to the network. Unlike street prostitution or escort services this type of prostitution operates on the basis of girls having all of their expenses paid plus spending money and is more like a normal relationship that a real boyfriend and girlfriend or married couple might have. Elvis is said to have been connected with such networks (in addition to the groupies or or "road wifes" most musicians have) and had relations with well over 4,000 of these girls. These girls only provide services for the client they are with while they are with them and their clients are their Johns rather than being their pimps. Is there an article that describes such networks in detail? -- Taxa  (talk) 03:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There does not seem to be such an article. You are welcome to create such an article as soon as you find some reliable sources to satisfy the requirement for verifiability. It really sounds like someone's fantasy. Edison (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment my knowledge is limited to public nodes such as strip clubs rather than private nodes such as the Hilton ranch, etc. -- Taxa  (talk) 05:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This sounds like the system described in the science fiction novel Stand on Zanzibar (but not covered in our article on the novel). Warofdreams talk 21:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Also the two girls that use to swim around in the Whitehouse pool during the Kennedy administration come to mind. Once siting in first class discussing this with a friend two girls across the isle giggled and remarked, "Sounds like [he's talking about] us." -- Taxa  (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, what would make this prostitution when normal, "traditional", relationships where the woman doesn't work is not? Many a woman might leave a man (or at least his bed) if he stopped providing for her.  Doesn't the fact that the sexual favors are based on monetary support fit the very definition of prostitution?  As a corollary, aren't people in the pornographic film industry paid to have sex?  What kind of special dispensation does that fall under, that they can do it publicly, with plenty of proof lying around, without fear of legal consequences?  Freedom of expression allows you to make movies with sex in them, but it doesn't seem like it covers paying people to do it....  --Prestidigitator (talk) 23:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Porn actors are not necessarily paid to have sex, but to let someone watch them doing it. Imagine a couple of porn actors with a web-cam. They would have sex with each other anyway, but the cash in for having the camera. GoingOnTracks (talk) 00:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The key thing with porn stars is that the person they're having sex with isn't the person paying. --Tango (talk) 01:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Has mininova been hacked?
Loads of torrents on mininova.org are reporting 640 seeds, when yesterday they had only a few. What the hell is going on? They can't all be a conensidence with having exactly 640 seeds. Is the government involved? Dozendough (talk) 11:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * More likely to be these guys. Fribbler (talk) 14:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently it was caused by a server problem D0762 (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Recent sexual activity
It is obviously possible for a medical examination to determine whether a woman has had sex recently; we often hear about this kind of forensic testing in crime investigations. But it is similarly possible for an examination to determine whether a man has ejaculated recently? And would such an examination be able to determine whether it resulted from intercourse or masturbation? --Richardrj talkemail 12:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of information here on what procedures are involved in forensic examination of the male genitalia in various situations. Fribbler (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not always possible for a medical examination to determine whether a woman has had sex recently. The "obviousness" referred to is presumably the presence of semen in the vagina or rectum. In many sorts of sexual activity this does not occur -- most commonly, because of the use of a condom. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't even necessarily mean she's "had sex", in the usual meaning of that term. It may well be evidence of having been raped.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In some of the Eleanor Roosevelt mystery novels by son Elliott Roosevelt (1910-1990), the forensic techniques used by the Washington DC police in the 1930's and 1940's included testing whether a dead man's seminal repository (Epididymis? Seminal vesicle?) was empty and whether there was semen in his urethra. No idea where Elliott got the information or how reflective it was of period or present police forensics. Edison (talk) 22:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Orange
Hi whats that song that is on the UK orange phone network TV advert? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.223.177 (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What song? What advert? How does it go?  What is the lyric?  Can you post a clip, or a link to one? --Richardrj talkemail 12:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it among any of these? Fribbler (talk) 12:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Battersea Power Station
I have purchased prints of the power station the last couple of years and am looking for new site to go to so as to purchase more prints / photos of the power station. I have some real great pictures from a pro photographer but would like to see if there are others who have some for sale. Always loved this building and have sent over support as to seeing it stay up, with the right renovation it can be a beautiful area to go to. We have a similar area in Boston Mass. USA on the waterfront. All shops, areas to sit and look out, parks and nice condo's. Hope they respect this building and do the same.

---thanks - bob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.103.190.11 (talk) 13:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a few nice ones available to buy here. --Richardrj talkemail 13:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

excellent - thanks - if any others pop up will very much appriciate it - thanks again - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.103.190.11 (talk) 13:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Bob, as a fellow Bostonian, I am curious which part of the Boston waterfront you think compares with the Battersea Power Station? Marco polo (talk) 20:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the point Bob was making is that there is a part of the Boston waterfront which the area around Battersea Power Station might resemble if it is redeveloped in a similar way. He wasn't comparing the present power station or its surrounding area with Boston. --Richardrj talkemail 07:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

M'alayah
Where can I get music for m'alayah dance, the common dance in UAE? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.29 (talk) 14:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Airport security
Why is airport security so over-the-top tight? I recently read about a British man being refused entry to a plane to Düsseldorf because he was wearing a T-shirt showing a picture of a Transformers robot with a gun. A picture! The same story said that a few months earlier, some Canadian person was refused entry to a plane because he/she was wearing a necklace with a very small gun-shaped pendant. What are the security personnel thinking? Do they seriously think the man would start shooting people with a picture of a gun? I have a hard time believing they could be that stupid. Is it then because they think other passengers would get upset and anxious after seeing a picture of a gun? But the other passengers can't be that stupid either, and the personnel must know that. So are they merely being strict for the sake of being strict, like we say in Finland, "reading the rules like the Devil reads the Bible"? Are they knowingly enforcing farcical rules, thinking "well, if you ask me, that guy is all OK, but we were told that we must forbid anything that could even evoke the most remote thought about a gun, so we'll forbid it"? And are they enjoying this, or just obeying orders? J I P | Talk 16:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At a personal security guard level, the motivation naturally varies. At a more institutional level, it's hard to say -- there's presumably a large belief that the regulations enhance security somehow, but some of the regulations seem quite pointless.  The whole thing is complicated by the inability to prove deterrence -- is the lack of a successful repeat of 9/11-style hijackings a result of new security or simply that no reasonable attempts have been made?  The general public has no way to know.
 * On a personal note, the only time I've felt airport security to be particularly onerous was a flight from Amsterdam to the States some 10 hours after the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot became known. All passengers were individually (though politely) interrogated before being permitted to board.  &mdash; Lomn 18:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know if these things happened. All that you are describing could be n urban legend. GoingOnTracks (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I heard about it on the webpage of a Swedish newspaper (in Swedish). J I P  | Talk 05:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, both stories were reported in the mainstream press in the last couple of weeks. --Anonymous, 05:55 UTC, June 13, 2008.
 * This is just a guess, but I expect there is a policy somewhere that states that any gun/weapon/terrorism related clothing cannot be worn. Imaging if somebody turned up for a flight wearing a t-shirt with images from 9/11. You'd expect them to be told to change or not get on the flight. By having a blanket ban on anything showing weapons etc., it removes any arguments about whether an item of clothing is suitable or not. Alphazulu (talk) 08:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Beyond Fear (book) by Bruce Schneier might interest you. --antilivedT 08:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "You'd expect them to be told to change or not get on the flight". No. No, I wouldn't. Assuming a piece of clothing is acceptable on the street (and by acceptable I mean "doesn't cause its owner to be arrested", not "could not possibly offend anybody") then why should it be any different at an airport? I really don't understand the thinking here. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 18:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

If you were not constantly being shown how much you need to be afraid, you might not tolerate the eggregious incursions into your civil liberties that our various governments are now promoting "in the name of safety". Surely Antonin Scalia's dissent on yesterday's Gitmo decision should have made this manifestly clear -- he's ready to toss out the United States Constitution in support of his NeoCon friends.

Atlant (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that in the instance referred to by the OP, the decision to make the passenger change his t-shirt was completely over-the-top. However, if I was on a plane with a passenger who was wearing something more directly related to terrorism (eg. 9/11), I would be anxious. But if I walked past that person in the street, I wouldn't feel the same way. It depends on context.
 * The problem is the policy makers are probably over-cautious, resulting in the clearly ridiculous situation with the transformers t-shirt. It's my guess that the individual security officials are only following excessively tight regulations. Alphazulu (talk) 20:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Shower curtains
I can't find any shower curtains in the exact colors I want, but I can find fabric, so I've determined to make my own. The dimensions I'll need are printed on commercial curtains, so that's not a problem, but is there a special kind of fabric I need to use? My impression is that something light like cotton would be best, but do I need to spray it with anything?

Just to be clear, I will not be using this as a shower liner, so it doesn't need to be water-repellent. It's just going to hang on the outside of the tub to look nice. But with all the moisture that's gonna be in the air, I don't want it to get moldy.

Thoughts? --Masamage ♫ 22:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As you know, the wet duty kind is shower curtain nylon or polyester by the metre; crystal plastic (clear, heavy weight) by the metre. Anything probably grows mold, but these are more easily cleaned of it. If it's only decorative, any fabric will do (says Google), but when it comes to cleaning off mold with bleach, say, may not stay pretty. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

But if it's "normal" fabric, won't it be easy to just launder it regularly?hotclaws 07:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

A.F.I.
Is there a place to go an ask questions and get answers to them? Mr. T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.192.82 (talk) 22:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Which AFI? Paragon12321 (talk) 23:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Ketchup
Any particular way to store a bottle of ketchup after it has been opened? Everyone I know stores it in the fridge, but my family has always just stuck in the kitchen to achieve room temperature. My parents have done this all their lives and it lasts quite a long time. Any guidelines? The bottle does not say either way, although it does say it is purposely shaped to go on the fridge door...

I guess my question is, does it matter how it is stored? Thanks, The Reader who Writes (talk) 23:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Total OR here, but we keep it in the press/cupboard (room temperature). Use it once a month or so. It has never gone "off", ever. Even after six months. I'm guessing the vinegar preserves it. Fribbler (talk) 00:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I mean, it has never gone bad for us but everyone I was wondering why people keep it in the fridge if it does not go bad. I guess just a place to put it.The Reader who Writes (talk) 01:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Good evening. On a more personal note I put the ketchup in the fridge because I don't like warm ketchup. My ketchup has to be cold. So no it doesn't matter, but to some people who are picky about warm and cold, yes.Rem Nightfall (talk) 02:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the contrast of hot food and cold ketchup is agreeable, something like the contrast of hot and cold in a Baked Alaska. Also, I have noticed that old ketchup eventually gets rather dark colored, more of a blood red. Perhaps keeping it cold will slow this effect. StuRat (talk) 04:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep the ketchup (almost) anywhere, but do not top up a bottle from another. Learned this the hard way when working in a restaurant - given time the mixed ketchups ferment - and the bottle explodes !86.197.173.82 (talk) 10:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)DT


 * Yes, and, in the case of glass bottles, you can't get the ketchup out if they always keep it full like that, unless you slide a knife into it, which isn't very sanitary. StuRat (talk) 12:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Would it be more sanitary to stick a french fry in it?(Deep fat sterilization and all that). Edison (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * From the Consumer FAQ page of a well known brand (a "reliable sauce" ?): "Should ketchup be refrigerated? - Because it is a very acidic product, ketchup does not spoil easily. Once opened, in order to maintain the product's quality more effectively, we do suggest that ketchup (and any other processed food) be refrigerated after opening because refrigeration retards spoilage." Gandalf61 (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've started to rely on the advice of bottles for this sort of thing. If the bottle says to store it in the fridge after opening, I do so. If it says to store it in a cool, dark place, I just leave it in the cupboard since I live in a temperate country. From my experience, most bottles of tomato ketchup or sauce recommend you keep in in the fridge. Soya sauce is usually fine in the cupboard. Nil Einne (talk) 12:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Self-employed, classified ads
Where (online) do self-employed people can place classified ads in the US or UK? GoingOnTracks (talk) 23:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you looking for work or looking to hire someone? And in what field of employment?
 * You could try http://www.craigslist.com/ and for something more widely accepted in professional circles you could try http://www.monster.com/ or http://www.monster.co.uk/
 * Astronaut (talk) 03:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.gumtree.com/ D0762 (talk) 08:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I am looking for work. I thought that monster was more for employees seeking employment. GoingOnTracks (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends on what work you do. Monster and similar sites also carry ads for short-term contract positions and many contract workers are self-employed.  However, if you are a self-employed house painter, construction worker or other tradesperson, then perhaps Monster is not the place to look.  Astronaut (talk) 20:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)