Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 June 20

= June 20 =

www.penisaur.com
Does anyone own this website? I'd check by going to the site myself but I'm scared it'll give me a virus.
 * Apparently, nobody owns it yet... Dismas |(talk) 00:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) Indeed. So, happy blogging! - EronTalk 00:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Too bad both penisaurus.com and penisaurusrex.com are taken. (Note that both are porn sites.) By the way, an easy way to check if someone owns it—in fact, a much more reliable one than "going to the site"—is just checking on a DNS registrar, like GoDaddy.com. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This site is now registered. It is a web comic that uses a penisaur as its mascot/logo.

Dishwashing detergent
I have a completely ordinary dishwasher, which has in the usual fashion two detergent cups: one open, one with a lid. The "Normal" wash cycle actually fills the cabinet with water, sprays it around for a while, then pumps it out three times; it is during the second and longest of these cycles that the closed detergent cup opens, and the bulk of the washing happens.

If I leave the open cup empty, then the first cycle is called the Pre-Rinse cycle, and its function is primarily to knock off the loose stuff. But, if I put detergent in the open cup, then the first cycle is called a Pre-Wash cycle, and presumably does a better job of loosening up some of the dried-on crud. In either case, at the end of this cycle the dirty water and whatever came loose is pumped out and the main wash cycle begins.

So, (finally) my question: suppose I wish to use only one spoonful of detergent. Am I better off dividing it in half or 40/60 or whatever, so that some detergent is used up and discarded and then replaced by "fresh"; or should I leave the small cup empty, let plain water do whatever it can and have the full shot of detergent applied only in the second cycle?

(Please do not advise to RTFM -- or the fine Box in this case -- as I believe the goal of detergent manufacturers is to sell as much detergent as possible.)

P.S. This is not a homework question, I know that's a hot issue for some people :-). --Danh, 70.59.79.230 (talk) 00:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I will suggest RTFMing anyway -- not the detergent manual but the dishwasher manual. Alternatively, experiment.  At worst you'll get dishes that aren't clean and you have to run the thing another time.  --Anonymous, 05:20 UTC, June 20/08.

Morrowind IV: Oblivion
Good evening. I am having a bit of a issue here. Its hard to trust the little box. Morrowind IV: Oblivion has a Game of the Year Edition that comes with all the other expansion. Will I need Xbox Live to use the expansion packs or are the expansions been put into the game on one disk? Also, how much is the cost of Game of the Year Edition compared to just the game? Thank you for answering my question. I really appreciate it. Have a positively wonderful evening.Rem Nightfall (talk) 01:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Morrowind and Oblivion are different games. Do you mean The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind or The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion? Raven4x4x (talk) 03:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Elder Scrolls: Oblivion...I'm sorry I call the game Morrowind all the time I get confused and then I confuse other people. So I mean the fourth game Oblivion.Rem Nightfall (talk) 04:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't need Xbox Live to play the expansions if you buy the Game of the Year version. The price difference on amazon.com at least is $30 - see  and .  However, they may be priced differently at other retailers. -Elmer Clark (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

baseball game question
So I was just watching the College World Series between LSU and North Carolina. It was the top of the first inning, and North Carolina was leading 2-0, with the bases loaded and 1 out. The game was immediately suspended following severe lightning storms. Does the game reset the following day with no score? I heard that if less than five innings were complete, the game restarts, but if five or more innings are complete the game is called. Anyone know the ruling on this?76.194.67.13 (talk) 03:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what it is in the majors, where teams usually have multiple opportunities to make up a called game. However, according to this story, the game will be resumed Friday, which makes sense for an event that has to end on schedule.  Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 07:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Bezel II
after reading the above question on bezels, I'm prompted to ask about my watch. It's from a gift from Mazda and it has a counterclockwise rotating dial with the code: reading from the left (3 letter break) POL LON PAH GAI MOW OXB NMI DSC RAA HKG IYO SYO NWW SKI MOY HNL ANC LAY BEN MEX MYC CCS RIO

what does this mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 03:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My guess...it's a secret decoder ring!!! Err...watch.  Secret decoder watch.  Yeah.  Woo hoo!  --Prestidigitator (talk) 04:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, either the manufacturer has goofed badly or or you have misread/miscopied several of the letters and left out one 3-letter code; and, in addition, the watch is out of date.

The "HNL ANC LAY BEN MEX MYC CCS RIO" part obviously should read "HNL ANC LAX DEN MEX NYC CCS RIO", standing for: Honolulu, Anchorage, Los Angeles, Denver, Mexico City, New York, Caracas, and Rio de Janeiro, whose time zones (ignoring daylight saving time) until recently were respectively 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 hours west of UTC. Interpreting and correcting the rest of the sequence, I leave as an exercise for the reader. :-) Unfortunately, Venezuela changed its time zone recently and Caracas is now 4:30 west of UTC.  They would have done better to put HFX for Halifax instead.

--Anonymous, edited 05:43 UTC, June 20/08.

more like the watch maker goofed, the alphabetical sequence is copied correctly, oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 16:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Others on the list include LON - London, MOW - Moscow, HGK - Hong Kong... but other than that it's a guess - is SYO really SYD - Sydney? IYO really TYO - Tokyo? Some of them seem to be odd mixes of national and city codes too... POL for Portugal, Lisbon, NWW for (NZW) New Zealand, Wellington? Is OXB meant to be UZB? A mysterious list... Grutness...wha?  00:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You have done well, Grutness. I'm sure that LON, MOW, HKG (not HGK), SYO=SYD, and IYO=TYO are correct, since they all fit the time zone sequence. But Lisbon is on time zone 0, like London. Zone &minus;1 is much less populated, but it includes the Azores, and I think the answer is to be found there. And New Zealand is on +12, not +11. I think NWW is Noum&eacute;a, New Caledonia; its correct IATA code is NOU, but perhaps someone was confused by its ICAO code, which is NWWW. The obvious city to use for zone +12 would be Auckland, and given the number of errors elsewhere in the list, I think it's reasonable to conjecture that SKI is a mistake for AKL -- the first letter is a typing error (adjacent keys) while the third letter represents a misreading, like in SYO and IYO.

I've decided this is fun enough to make a try at the complete list, but even using a list of airport codes that I downloaded a while ago in conjunction with the Wikipedia list of time zones, I was only able to get answers for 20 of the 23 codes. Here's what I have...


 * I've deleted my original table, which had no solutions for MOY, NMI, and RAA; the others are the same as in the improved table below. --Anon, 05:40 UTC, June 23.

I wondered if MOY might be a mistake for MOI, but not only are the Cook Islands in zone +10, their main airport is at Rarotonga, not Mitiaro. So this seems most unlikely, but I don't have anything better.

The other two unsolved codes, NMI for zone +5 and RAA for +7, are in much more populous time zones, but I was not able to find plausible codes that they might have been errors for.

--Anonymous, 03:12 UTC, June 21, 2008.

P.S. (1) Isn't it impressive that more than half of the codes are wrong? (2) Two of the three unsolved codes are real airport codes, but too far from the proper time zones to be plausible errors. --Anon, 05:16, June 21.


 * Could NMI be intended to be KHI i.e. Karachi (or Jinnah International Airport)? Nil Einne (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I like that one! -- 21:52 UTC, June 21.

MOY would be MDY - Midway (Henderson Field, to be precise). That only leaves RAA, probably somewhere in Southeast Asia. Grutness...wha?  00:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. come to think of it, does Yangon still use the code it had as rangoon? If so, that would probably be something like RAN. Grutness...wha?  00:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * But Burma/Myanmar is apparently on UTC+6:30 (according to UTC+6:30, anyways). UTC+7 is Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, western Indonesia and Krasnoyarsk, Russia. None of these have cities that lend themselves to RAA. I agree about Midway, Grutness. Steewi (talk) 02:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, MDY has got to be right; I'm slapping my head over missing it. And I like NMI being KHI.  So that leaves only RAA to explain.  Not only is the time zone wrong for Yangon/Rangoon, its code is RGN (and ICAO code VYYY); that seems like too many errors even for this watch.


 * Hold on, I have it! RAA has two letters wrong, and one of them is the repeated letter, with the same error repeated!  R looks like B, A looks like K, right?  So here, then, is the complete solution.


 * * These are codes in the IATA airport code series, but apply to the city rather than a specific airport.
 * ** The code is right, but the time zone is out of date.

There! 20 different errors fixed. (Tosses chalk in air, catches it, sets it down and dusts off hands.)

--Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, June 23, 2008.

Thanks a whole bunch. That was one terrible watchmaker, oh well, hope at least you had fun with the puzzle. GO Wikipedians! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 18:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Social support
Shall much appreciate an economist pointing me to a site where I can obtain comparative data on the amount of GDP each of the EU countries allocates to social support/welfare.86.209.154.30 (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)DT
 * See Welfare_state Mattnad (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Belgian postal codes
How precise are Belgian postal codes? Are they as precise as UK ones, or as imprecise as French ones? In other words, how many addresses would a four-digit Belgian code typically cover? Thanks!--85.158.139.99 (talk) 16:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say less precise than in the UK where there can be several codes for one small street. In the capital, Brussels, the postal code fits the administrative commune (equivalent to the Parisian arrondissement or to the first half of a London postcode). Hope it helps. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--217.171.129.71 (talk) 07:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures of George W. Bush
Where can I find copyright-free pictures of George W. Bush, preferably of high quality. Copyright-free only in as much as they would be used in art projects with a large 'fair use' umbrella. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 16:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand it, any photo of him that was taken by a government employee carrying out the duties of their job as a photographer would fall under public domain. See the image in the info box at George W. Bush for instance.  This should suit your needs.  So, I'd suggest going to the White House's home page and finding most any image that you like unless there is a disclaimer on that particular photo.  Dismas |(talk) 16:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmhh... The White House site doesn't seem to have a picture section and all the photographs they show are too small to be printed (less than 8oo pixels on a side). Any other source would really be appreciated. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Google Images can be your friend. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * How about simply using the wikimedia Commons:George W. Bush? All images there are of course available under a 'free-license' although depending on the art project, obeying the GFDL in particular could be difficult/annoying I guess Nil Einne (talk) 12:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Take a look at Air Force Link photos and Defenselinkmil Mac Davis (talk) 02:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Uk Sewers
If I were to venture down into the UK sewer system from a manhole on the street, what dangers should I expect to face and what precautionary measures should I take beforehand? How easy would it be to accurately navigate through the sewer system to reach a set destination, for example from my house to my place of work? Are there any people down there that may challenge my presence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.188.252 (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not an expert on this, but first, you probably know that there isn't a single UK sewer system but separate systems for each urban area. Now, as to what you are likely to encounter, of course there will be a stench.  You will also be exposed to bacteria and other pathogens.  Assuming that you could walk through the sewers, which I doubt, you would want a watertight covering at least up to your waist.  The main collector sewers in major cities are likely to be large enough that you could walk through them, though you might have to crouch over, and walking bent over would eventually become painful.  However, the feeder sewers, such as the one running from your house to the main collector sewer, are unlikely to be large enough for you to pass through.  Or else, at best, you would have to crawl and slither through the sewer with most of your body immersed in the sewage, requiring watertight coverage of your entire body and probably oxygen tanks (if you could squeeze them into the sewer as well), because you do not want to risk inhaling or ingesting infectious sewage.  As to whether parts of the sewer system are patrolled, I don't know but I doubt it.  Marco polo (talk) 17:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Many places have separate rain sewers and sanitary sewers (where the toilets flush, which are completely sealed to prevent toxic and explosive gases from escaping). The rain sewers can have some gross things in them, too, like live or dead rats, but are open to the air.  I'd assume you're asking about rain sewers.  Navigation underground is a problem, as there are no landmarks to go off and I wouldn't expect any readable signs. StuRat (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sewers are sometimes used by people to escape, such as smugglers, resistance fighters and those on the run. The Brighton sewers look big enough to walk though upright, as does the Cloaca Maxima, but I think you'd have trouble getting into them, and even more trouble getting out. And if you are down there and it starts to rain or there is a flash flood, you could easily drown if the water level rises too quickly and you cannot escape. Traveling through sewers is also a common plot device, but the unsanitary conditions or strong smell of the sewage is seldom mentioned, for example Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or the vampire Angle who used sewers to travel during the day to avoid sunlight. Jessica  N10248  18:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The images of the Brighton sewers show the main collector sewers. These were built in Victorian times, when maintenance people were expected to walk through the main sewers.  I'm not sure that they are still built as large, and I'm fairly sure that the collector sewers running beneath side streets are not as large.  Marco polo (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd get a Leptospirosis innoculation before I even thought about going down and also take along a gas detector to make sure I wasn't walking into any potentially dangerous low oxygen areas (caused by build-ups of methane or other gases). Nanonic (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Very few sewers, whether sanitary,stormwater or combined are large enough to walk or crawl through. The manhole chambers you see in the street are large enough to enter but just to facilitate access to the pipes for water blasting, cameras etc - the pipes are much smaller. Apart from the infectious nature of whats in there, oxygen depletion and asphixiating gases can be a major problem and a quick google of sewer worker deaths or similar will show you it still happens. In terms of navigation, sewers virtually never follow the street layout, they need to use topography and gravity ( its difficult to push faecal matter up hill) so they often run with the land contours, always heading down hill. Mhicaoidh (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * However, tourists can visit the Paris sewers. An unforgettable day out!--Shantavira|feed me 06:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ...and the Brighton sewers as well - see here.--217.171.129.71 (talk) 07:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Any sewer or other underground space reached via a manhole cover is likely to be full of bad smells, rats, cockroaches feces, urine and germs. It may fill with water unexpectedly and drown you. The air may be toxic or lacking in oxygen, or contain combustible gases. Best take a bus rather than a sewer to get where you're going. Edison (talk) 03:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Driving times in the UK
As regulars may know, I am planning a holiday that involves driving around the UK in a rental car. I have been planning an itinerary using driving times from Google Maps. Recently I posted here and in some other places that I was planning to drive from London (near Paddington) to Stonehenge, and that I expected the drive to take 1 hour and 45 minutes. Actually, according to Google Maps, it is 1 hour and 40 minutes. Using the Directions function of Multimap.com, an online map provider based in the UK, I get the same result. However, I got responses from several people who live near the route from Paddington to Stonehenge that this route could not possibly be driven in only 1 hour and 45 minutes, even if there is no traffic congestion. One person said that I should count on 2 hours and 15 minutes without traffic, and probably 2 hours and 30 minutes to be safe. So, I am left wondering, are the driving times provided by Google Maps and other online map providers completely unrealistic for the UK? If so, can I get realistic times by adding a certain percentage, say 50%? Thank you! Marco polo (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be surprised if they're unrealistically optimistic. In Edinburgh, such routers often use the city bypass as the 'fastest route' when in fact it's often the slowest possible route (since, at peak time, it's essentially a car park). I don't know the specific route here, though. Angus Lepper(T, C, D) 17:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The driving times also seem unrealistic for Google maps and MapQuest in the US. I'm guessing they just assume everyone travels the speed limit on each road during the entire trip.  Unfortunately, this means that just adding a percentage is not going to make it much more accurate.  This is because city streets, with constant stop-and-go due to stop signs, traffic lights, construction, and traffic back-ups can make those much slower than this calculation method, while a nice clear highway with everyone driving 20 MPH over the limit can move much faster than this calculation.  You also need to consider the need for stops during long trips; for fuel, food, and bathroom breaks.  Those estimates seem so poor that I find it's better to just estimate them myself. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? Google Maps times work for me in the US, especially for longer (intercity) trips.  This may be because I tend to travel 14 mph above the speed limit when traffic permits, which more or less makes up for stretches where traffic puts me below the speed limit.  Can anyone else in the UK comment on whether Google Maps consistently underestimates UK drive times?  Also, what is the practice in the UK?  In most of the US, most drivers exceed the speed limit on freeways/motorways.  I have found that police generally don't object to speeds 15–20% above the limit.  (Higher than that, though, and you will probably be pulled over and fined.)  Are speed limits more strictly enforced in the UK?  Marco polo (talk) 19:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * AA times tend to be a little more conservative (1 hr 52 for Paddington/Stonehenge). Having just tried a few routes I know well, it seems fairly accurate. I think the main problem is cities (as mentioned for London and Edinburgh); traffic in cities is less predictable, and the mapping makes no allowances for the differing times of the day, or significant congestion, so you'll need to add on a substantial amount of time if you're heading past/through any.  For the open road, they seem quite reasonable averages (of the ones I tried, I've generally been slightly quicker rather than slower than the quoted times). Gwinva (talk) 21:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I too think the problem is that most mapping software takes no account of time of day or traffic conditions. If you are lucky, it might allocate different speeds based on the type of road (ie. faster on motorways).  I read recently that the average traffic speeds in London is now under 10mph - lower than it was in the days of "horseless carriages".
 * If you left Paddington at 3am, you could reach Stonehenge 85 miles away in an hour and 45 mins. But if you left at 8am, it could take you over an hour to get on to the M25 motorway less than 20 miles into your journey.  The morning run down the M3 might be OK, and by the time you will be turning onto the A303 (fast dual-carriageway for long stretches) the traffic could be freely flowing.  I would tend to agree with what you've heard elsewhere - hope for 2 hours, plan for 2 and a half hours.  However, you are on holiday and I certainly wouldn't schedule your trips too tightly.
 * As for driving speeds, many drivers exceed the limit where they think they can get away with it. Cars usually go 75-85 mph on motorways but generally stick to the 30 or 40 mph speed limit in towns. The major factor in this, is the presence of speed cameras along many urban roads.   Fortunately, after complaints they were solely for raising money, they are now all painted reflective yellow to provide an effective deterrent.  Strangely enough, there are no speed cameras on motorways except on the M25 (hidden in gantries over the road) and other some places were the speed limit is reduced below the usual 70mph.  If you are unlucky, you could be caught in a temporary speed trap and flagged down by the police at the side of the road.  And if you are really unlucky, the police will chase you with blue lights and everything.  In my experience, it is much less likely to happen than in the US - then again maybe it's just my lead foot that got me in stopped several times whilst on holiday ;-)
 * Astronaut (talk) 03:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not Briton, but I've read recently that around the solstice, the traffic to and from Stonehenge and Avebury gets a bit thick. I might have read that on Marco Polo's earlier question, though. Steewi (talk) 02:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Tanning Beds
If you lay in a tanning bed is it still ok to lay out in the sun? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.205.153 (talk) 19:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "ok"? There is no law against it, but you will get a double does of ultraviolet radiation, which causes DNA mutations. The longer you do either for the more chance you have of developing problems. See Tanning bed and Sunlight. Jessica  N10248  19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You might be interested in reading the history of tanning. Mac Davis (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No! You will get burnt. In any case, tanning beds are now known to be harmful, as is sunbathing. I had a deep tanyears ago, and I recently had to have pre-canerous moles removed. I was lucky they had been spotted in time - good old NHS. 80.2.201.59 (talk) 23:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Template usage tracking
I made a template some time ago (User:The Vandal Warrior/Userboxes/GTA IV fan). Is there anyway I can see how many users are using this template on their user page? bsrboy (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just click the "What links here" link in the toolbox section on the right side of the page. See this. The ones that say "transclusion" after them are the ones that display the userbox on the page. Jessica  N10248  19:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! bsrboy (talk) 19:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Masters Degree in Sweden or Finland or any Nordic Countries.
Hello,

I am in the 3rd year(out of 4 years) of my Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science and Engineering. I have heard from a friend of mine that the Master's programmes in Sweden are completely subsidised by the State (i.e. They are free, no tuition fees). When I checked this on our own Wikipedia article, I found it to be true. However, it was stated that the Government is planning to discontinue this, and impose a tuition fee on all the foreign students(Not on students in the EU). I would like to know, if possible, when this might be imposed and if the subsidization is stopped, how much would the actual fee would be? (I would like to know the maximum fee that any University might have). I'll finish my Bachelor's in 2010 and will be applying the same year.

I also checked on the Education system of Finland, and it is subject to the same conditions as above(No tuition fees for now, and might be introduced in the future). And I would like the know the maximum fees that could be imposed in an Uni in Finland.

Is there a list of the countries that are providing Master's courses in this fashion?

How good exactly are these Universities in comparision to the Universities in other countries, such as USA, or Canada and so.

And I have one final question. I checked on a few of the universities in Sweden and Finland. In the requirements section, they mentioned a proficiency in English as a requirement and a minimum score in the [TOEFl] exam. While this is alright, I was surprised not to see any mention of the [GRE] exam. Does it mean that I dont need to write this exam? Or is it like a default requirement for all the Universities?

And also how strict is the intake process? Will my grade at the end of my bachelor's matter a lot? Or is it OK if I finish my degree with an average grade.

As you can see I am in quite a bit of confusion at the moment. I'd really appreciate it if you guys help me out here. :-)

Thanks a lot,

Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 21:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't give you an unbiased assessment of the quality, so I'll skip that part of your question. Regarding the fees, the problem for you as a prospective student is that these things can change quite rapidly. While there are no fees at the moment, and no decision made to introduce them at any specific date, it may change. If the swedish parliament decides to introduce fees for non-EU students, it would not be unlikely to be done at six months notice, or so. Thus it won't be possible to say with any certainty what the situation will be like for semester 2, 2010 until about a year and a half from now. My knowledge about entry req's concerns only domestic students, so somebody with experience of applying to a swedish uni from abroad might be able to help you better with that. /Kriko (talk) 08:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, this might also be of interest: As far as I recall from what was debated when this was last discussed, if fees are introduced, they will only be partial, i.e. not pay for the full costs. They'd be only a fraction (quarter? fifth?, even less) of what you'd expect from e.g. a good U.S. university /Kriko (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * One thing to keep in mind is that, for Finnish universities at least, the whole concept of a B.Sc. degree is relatively new, being introduced only in the past few years as part of the Bologna process. (You may want to specifically read Bologna process as well as the Education in Finland article.)  For example, I'm just about to finish my Master's degree at the University of Helsinki despite not having a Bachelor's degree; when I started my studies, no such degree existed here yet.  (Yeah, I know, it's taken me a while — I was working most of the time.)  Even where the curriculum now includes a separate Bachelor's degree, many places still consider it just an intermediate step towards a full Master's degree.  In particular, this is likely to mean that the entrance procedures for students who already have a Bachelor's degree may be much less formal or standardized: even though, from your viewpoint, you've finished one degree and are starting another, from the university's viewpoint you're essentially jumping in half-way through what is still, in many ways, a direct-to-M.Sc. programme.


 * As for the GRE, I doubt most nordic universities require it: the nordic countries tend to have their own standardized examination systems. The reason for requiring TOEFL is simply to ensure that the student actually understands the language they'll be mostly studying in.  It's possible that some internationally recognized exams might count in your favor, even if they're not required, but this is likely to depend not only on the specific university but on the specific program you're applying for.  It won't hurt to ask, though.  The admissions procedure for international Master's programmes at the University of Helsinki says they require a degree certificate, a transcript of studies (including information on the grading system used), a language test score (they don't seem to specifically require TOEFL) and a written letter explaining your motivation for studying at that particular university and for choosing the specific program you're applying for; the letter is apparently not just a formality, but may constitute a significant part of the evaluation criteria.  It also notes that you may be required to take an entrance exam.  I didn't look at other universities, but from what I've heard in general, that all sounds fairly typical.


 * Regarding quality, about the closest thing there is to an objective assessment would be various ranking lists, where it seems the nordic universities generally tend to score fairly well. Googling for nordic university ranking led me to this page, which gives the ranks of various nordic universities on two of them.  Of course, it's up to you how much value you put on such lists.  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and apparently the range of tuition fees for foreign students from outside the EU proposed in 2005 by the Finnish Ministry of Education was 3,500–12,000 euros per year. (ref:, in Finnish) Any actual implementation of such fees would require passing a new law: the current Finnish law on universities (yliopistolaki 8 §) states that "education leading to a university degree is free of charge to the student".  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. So, if I had to pay a fee, it would be far less than what I'd be paying in USA or some other uni in the West? And how much would I have to spend for my stay in Sweden? I understand that my general expenses might cost a lot of money in Sweden or Finland. And I have also read in the FAQ section of some Swedish uni that they would not provide any accomodation on campus and I'd have to find my own place to live. How much would that cost(Approximately, of course)? Are there any cheaper alternatives like staying as a Paying Guest or something? If a University did provide hostel accomodation, how would that compare to finding a place to live off campus (in terms of cost)?
 * It looks like most of the Nordic Universities do rank pretty well. I am considering applying to some of these Universities. I just need to find about 5 of the universities which might just take me in.
 * So, Ilmari Karonen, me having a bachelor's degree would make it easier for my acceptance? Or is it the other way round?
 * Thanks a lot again. Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 13:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * On-campus living is very uncommon in Sweden. However, there is specific student housing in most Uni towns, though usually not run by the university itself. These are commonly located fairly convenient, though not on the actual campuses. You ought to be able to find links from the uni websites to the local housing companies that offer student flats. If not, try following links via the student unions at the respective univeristies. In Sweden, the rent could be maybe 250-300€/month for a room, sharing a kitchen and lounge with others.
 * If you already have a bachelor's degree, you shouldn't be applying to the longer Straight-to-master's programmes Ilmari mentions, but rather to those designed for people with a previous bachelor level degree. With the Bologna process now implemented, there should be plenty of these in both Finland and Sweden,. Due to the transitions being in progress, they may or may not be labelled International Masters Programmes. In some cases there may some confusion of naming as both a 5-year and a 2-year programmes can have the same name. In those cases, the first three years of the longer one would contain studies equivalent to a bachelor's, and the latter two years would be very similar to the actual Master's programme. A fairly brief look at the lenght of the programme and the entry requirements should tell you which kind they are. /Kriko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.194.44.18 (talk) 23:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh! I think I understand it now. :-) . And 250 euros a month sounds a little high to me. Are there any other means of accomodation? Are there any other Nordic or European countries which offer a free Master's programs and also are slightly cheaper to live in? Maybe around 150 euros/ month? Thanks a lot again! I cannot stress enough how patient you guys have been with me. Thanks a ton! Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 05:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem. I doubt you're going to find any place in the nordic countries with significantly lower living costs, so yes, what you gain in free tuition you lose in expensive food and housing.  This guide from the U. of H. says that "The estimated minimum cost of living is 500 to 600 euros per month. This estimate includes the cost for accommodation, transportation and meals."  That's for Helsinki; rents are somewhat cheaper in smaller towns like Turku, Tampere, Oulu or Jyväskylä, but e.g. food prices are about the same.  One possible option (besides applying for grants) is to try to find some work, either on or off campus: at least the Finnish student residence permit allows part-time working, and wages tend to be proportionately high as well.  Mind you, so are the taxes.


 * As for the programmes, what Kriko says is essentially correct, but an additional complication is that Finnish universities, at least, tend to follow an "open course plan", which means that there are no specific, say, "4th year" courses. Generally, the courses are grouped in levels such as "basic", "intermediate" and "advanced", with the advanced courses mostly being the ones you should take after your Bachelor's degree (including some mainly intended for Ph.D. students), but it's not a hard-and-fast rule.  For example, according to the study guide for the CS dept. at the U. of H., the general requirements for a Master's degree (for normal students) are: a Bachelor's degree, at least 40 ECTS credits of advanced CS studies (more or less freely chosen, but must include some courses appropriate for the specific programme), a 40 cr thesis and enough elective courses (usually with some constraints, such as at least 20 cr of math or "method sciences") to fulfill the total requirement of 120 ECTS credits.  There are also some special M.Sc. programmes with a somewhat different structure, such as the Master's degree in Bioinformatics, but the general "pick and mix" style is still the same.


 * While looking for the info above, I also came across the international applicant's guide for the University of Helsinki, which might answer some of your questions. I couldn't find a good place to work that link into the text, so I'll just give it here. :-)  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I notice no one has pointed this out so I probably should mention it. Although it's often possible to study in English nowadays in a number of countries where the native language is not English, you'll likely find it a lot easier and a lot more of a pleasent experience if at least learn one local language (if there are several) Nil Einne (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Thanks a lot for that guide. I am going through it right now. And how easy or hard is it to learn Swedish or Finnish? And would all the jobs involve talking to the local people? Are there any jobs on campus or something which I could get without learning the language? Not that I am not willing to learn the language. :-P Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 10:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm somewhat guessing here, but I'd expect that English should be enough for most on-campus jobs that don't directly involve customer service (those are likely to have formal language requirements). In Finland at least, people often jokingly refer to English as the "third national language" (after Finnish and Swedish), and it's pretty much expected that anyone studying at a university should have at least a basic understanding of English.  Also, with a degree in CS and engineering, it shouldn't be hard for you to find a job e.g. in programming; it's not 2000 anymore, but in my experience there's still plenty of jobs to go around in the IT sector for anyone who's even half-way competent.  As for learning Finnish, it does have a reputation as a difficult language to learn.  I'd say it's at least difficult to study from books; compared to English, the orthography is simple but the grammar is conversely complicated.  Still, Finnish kids do manage to learn it by immersion in a couple of years, so there's no reason why you couldn't... :-)  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ha ha.. Yeah, I probably could learn the language if I had to use it everyday. So, will an on campus job (or an off campus if I didn't have a choice) be enough for my living expenses? Atleast a significant part of the expenses? And Thanks a lot again!! I owe ya one! :-) Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 10:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

My friend just told me that its hard to get a job after I finish my degree from anywhere in the EU because there are a lot of restructions on work permits or something. While I am not really worried about a getting a job after the degree right now, how far is it true? Is it that hard as he is saying? Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 11:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, I promise, one last question. How is Denmark? In terms of the job situation after degree and the cost of living while studying and everything. And all the other trivial things. :-P Jayant, 19 Years, India  • contribs 11:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)