Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 June 21

= June 21 =

bonded
When a contractor who is going to do home improvements in your home is bonded. What does bonded mean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.86.55 (talk) 00:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Bonded" likely means they have a performance bond, which guarantees that the contractor will meet his or her contractual obligations in a satisfactory manner. Failure will result in the payment of compensation by the bonding company. A bonded contractor should provide greater confidence that the job will be done properly, but they will also typically cost more than an unbonded contractor. See also Surety bond, for more general information on this type of 3-party contract. Rockpock  e  t  03:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Also bonded contractors are likely to be licensed by the state (in the US), whereas an unbonded contractor may not only not be licensed, but may have had their license revoked.  Corvus cornix  talk  00:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

DKR football stadium
Thank you for answering my previous questions. Sorry, but I have another one.

I looked on the article regarding the University of Texas's Darryl K. Royal Memorial football stadium, and it says that it has a current capacity of around 85,000. It also said that renovations were being undergone and the capacity would move up to 90,000. Does anyone know the exact capacity of the stadium once the renovations are complete? Will we ever find that out? Also, do you think Texas will break its attendance record on 89,418 this year?76.194.67.13 (talk) 00:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Do smoke detectors get triggered by cigarrette somke?
Does a modern smoke detector goes off with just cigarrette smoke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.40.65.166 (talk) 01:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it depends on the proximity of the cigarette to the smoke detector. If the cigarette is quite close, the smoke detector can pick up the smoke being emitted from the cigarette and possibly trigger itself.  On the other hand, if it is far from the nearest smoke detector, it is possibly unlikely that the smoke detector will pick it up. --Sky Harbor (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you ever take an airline flight, you've heard an announcement warning smokers that smoking is illegal even in the washrooms, and there are smoke detectors in there which it is also illegal to tamper with. Here's someone who found out the hard way that they will indeed detect cigarette smoke. But in a large room, as Sky says, it might well be a different matter. --Anonymous, 02:46 UTC, June 21, 2008.

Who's the oldest Daughter in all time?
I mean, the highest age's woman that her mother was Still alive. Breckinridge (talk) 07:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you really mean the oldest living daughter with a living mother then I have no idea. If you mean the living daughter with oldest living mother then Sarah Knauss's daughter is the oldest documented case as her daughter as still alive at the time of her death and she is the third oldest ever according to Oldest people Nil Einne (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sky
I've lived in NZ my entire life but recently moved to Vermont (6 months ago) and I've noticed something odd about the sky - to me, it seems that the skies are a paler blue in New Zealand than they are in VT/NH. I know there's probably no scientific reason for this, but it just seems like that for me. Maybe its some nostalgic/homesick thing, or maybe its just that I'm noticing the sky more now that I live in a far more hilly area. Something about the clouds, too - there seem to be many more nimbus here, as opposed to cirrus (which seemed to be prevalent in NZ). 66.220.246.235 (talk)Slayton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.246.235 (talk) 07:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Beware of people offering to answer your question for money. I am a fellow New Zealander however and can do you a good deal on some magic beans that came into my possession. Its a funny story...Mhicaoidh (talk) 11:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there by any chance a substantial elevation difference between the two locales ? I'd expect higher elevations to be paler blue during the day, as there's less air between you and space to refract sunlight into blue light.  If this is the case, I'd also expect the Sun to appear more whitish-yellow where you have the pale sky and more reddish-orange where you have the deep blue sky. StuRat (talk) 15:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Surely the amount of water vapour present in the atmosphere is a significant factor in how blue the sky appears. I would suggest that the New Zealand atmosphere contains, generally, more moisture than that in VT/NH. Richard Avery (talk) 15:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless I misunderstand, according to this website that is not actually the case Nil Einne (talk) 17:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I withdraw my case Mi' Lord. Thanks for that Nil. Richard Avery (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Diffuse sky radiation may be helpful, although I'm too tired to think about it Nil Einne (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As an aside, I noticed something similar when heading south from central Scotland to Cyprus. I wonder if it could be to do with the latitude? In terms of light passing through the atmosphere at a different angle and consequently passing through more atmosphere at more extreme latitudes, that is. Angus Lepper(T, C, D) 18:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The question surprises me. I live in Australia, just across the way from New Zealand, and I've heard many people from Europe and other northern parts say that the Australian sky is a deeper blue than where they come from.  Maybe there's something special about Vermont.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Having lived in several different places and travelled to more, I can testify that the sky in New England, and especially Northern New England, does tend to be a deeper blue than other places. I don't know why this is true.  I think that it just might have to do with the frequency of dry continental high-pressure systems passing overhead.  These form in central Canada and move southeast over New England especially in the fall (autumn) and winter.  (Continental high pressure would also form over Australia, I suppose, but might tend to weaken over the Tasman Sea.) Marco polo (talk) 00:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The light is quite different in NZ. (See also Scientific observations.) But no discussion of comparative sky colours can pass without quoting Bill Bryson, who suggested a winter spent in the UK was like living inside tupperware. In other words, the sky is a translucent white, not blue. Gwinva (talk) 23:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

legal rights
does a woman, who does not speak English, have a LEGAL right to a FEMALE interpreter when recieving NHS treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.210.166 (talk) 08:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not legal advice but I doubt that you have the right to a female interpreter although you may have the right an interpreter. Anonymous101 (talk) 11:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not legal advice (I don't live in the UK and I'm not a lawyer) my guess is if you have a good reason for wanting a female interpreter, you would probably be granted one and in the unlikely event one is refused a review or court case would like find your rights were violated. One example would be if you are seeking help for rape. Bear in mind that in many cases including I suspect this case this may not be spelt out in law so it's possible no one can no for sure until this is actually tested in court. Nil Einne (talk) 11:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, not legal advice, not sure but they probably have the right to an interpreter, though not specifically a female one...-- Serviam  (talk)  19:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea of your legal rights or otherwise, but the NHS Interpreting & Translation Service notes that its interpreters can "to refuse to interpret if:... b. you are the wrong sex" suggesting there they are sensitive to issues of gender. Rockpock  e  t  06:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A lot of interpreters in the UK are for Urdu (because of the large Pakistani Moslem population). Whereas I don't think any interpreter would have problems interpreting about a sore ear, if the problem related to sex or reproductive organs a conservative female Moslem interpreter would not want to interpret for a man and a conservative Moslem female patient would not want to talk to a male interpreter. Though there have been fatwas that say a woman can be treated by a male doctor if no female doctor is available I do not think this extends to interpreters. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Party problem
If I have a party for my birthday I'm going to lose my friends! Ok I'll explain. I would love have a party for my birthday in a month (it's a milestone age) with heaps of my friends but the small group of friends I hang out with daily (well, a girl and a guy) would be totally against it because for all my other friends to come there would be alcohol involved and my main friend considers herself "straight-edge". I don't want to leave out my best friends but they wouldn't come if I invited them to party with alcohol. I originally wanted to go play lasertag and then have pizza for my party but my friends aren't into that idea either (my friend says she doesn't like the arcade because "people look at you" and she doesnt eat pizza because she's a vegan too). I could shout my non-drinking friends to lunch and then have the rest of my friends at the party at night but I know my non-drinking friends would just whinge at me over who I'm inviting and why parties are wrong and blah blah blah all week and make me miserable... it's my birthday and I want a party but what am I supposed to do in this situation to make everybody happy? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 09:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * US translation: "shout my non-drinking friends to lunch" means to take them to lunch and pay their way. StuRat (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The joys of having a party... Just do what you would do if it's the last day of your life. Would you binge drink your way out or spend quality time with the people you love? --antilivedT 10:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They dont sound like friends, they sound like useful parts of your social networking. Unfortunately we cant assume you will die (see above ) after your party thus taking the easy way out. I would do what you want to do for your birthday. The straight couple know they are out of step with a lot of other people, for better or worse, without making value judgements, you need to decide what your birthday is. is it about you having fun,mirth with true friends or an opportunity to ingratiate yourself with these two  a bit more. Mhicaoidh (talk) 11:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It's your birthday and you're stressing about how to make everybody else happy.  Funny, I could have sworn it was supposed to be the other way around.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you tried talking to her (the vegan)? Did you tell her that having a huge drunken party to celebrate your milestone birthday (with ALL your friends) is important to you? If she still doesn't understand after that, she's probably not worth all the trouble you're willing to go to, to accomodate her (on YOUR birthday). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * When you say "for all my other friends to come there would be alcohol involved" do you mean 1) When all my other friends come, there would likely be alcohol involved OR 2) If I want my other friends to come, I need to include alcohol as part of the party? If you mean 2, then I would have to say I question whether all your other friends are worth the trouble either... Nil Einne (talk) 13:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it depends on what you want; a small gathering of your closest friends or a mad (and probably expensive) party full of people who barely know you and, as you say, are probably there just for the beer. Your non-drinking friends shouldn't whinge at you if you want a big party - but you should respect them if they don't want to attend if it's totally not their scene. Jessica  N10248  15:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I should add that I am presuming here it would be legal for you and your alcohol drinkings friends to drink alcohol. If not, I think I can understand and even agree with the objections of your non-alcohol drinking friends to the party. I'm also presuming despite the alcohol you are intending to have controlled chaos rather then something like this guy and if not I can similarly understand the and even agree with the objections of your friends. Finally I'm also presuming by saying alcohol, you only mean alcohol and not any sort of illegal psychoactive drugs. While what people choose to do is up to them, and I'm not really opposed to the use of some drugs in controlled circumstances I personally believe allowing them in a party you are running is a recipe for disaster particularly given their illegality and your likely inability to ensure things don't get out of control and/or people do something extremely stupid like this and would similarly understand the objections of your friends otherwise. Nil Einne (talk) 17:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I like your idea of taking the non-drinking friends out to lunch and having your drunken party later. For my part, if either party even partly objects to the party of the other party, then part with the party party which partly objects.  I'm partially partial, neigh, particularly partial, to that party plan.   StuRat (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * StuRat, my head just exploded. Jessica  N10248  15:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * StuRat picks up the empty skull and uses it to scoop up the various chunks of brains scattered about...


 * Firstly, just to say that lasertag and pizza sounds like fun. Shame others wouldn't go for that. I generally agree with above: you're probably looking at lunch with the straight people, party with everyone else. But if you're going with running a party with alcohol, and you haven't run a big party with alcohol before, be careful. Make sure there's someone big and fierce on your side who isn't getting horribly drunk (a parent, an older sibling, the right sort of friend), don't let people in that you didn't expect, hide anything precious, breakable or stainable. If all else fails and it gets out of hand, you may want to call the police and say there are gatecrashers who won't leave... 79.66.20.219 (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow you're so considerate of others that you could diversify for fun and profit. You could then make a career out of specialist party programs: teetotal raves, vegan couch parties, party boy parties, X parties, wedding parties, parties for warring parties, all-food parties, interested parties... It's your birthday so maybe you need to work out what you really want and enjoy. Btw, how do straight-edgers have fun? Maybe just being present wearing their 24 t-shirts would do it for them.) Here's to your own best happy birthday, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Friends that wouldn't come to your party if they couldn't get hammered aren't friends, they're people that want to come to your party so they can get hammered. Mac Davis (talk) 02:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Your "Straight Edge" friends sound weird to me, and not just over the drinking thing. (Some kinds of weird are good, but not these ones). On the core issue, though, my reaction is that I have no problem at all with people who don't themselves drink, but to take it upon themselves to assert that nobody else should either, and then to effectively blackmail you over it, is to be unbelievably arrogant. I find it hard to advise you on what to do as I can't visualise being in the same situation myself - I can't imagine being friends with people who behave like that. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 13:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, with the caveat given by Nil Einne. If you are under the age where drinking alcohol is allowed in your country, or in a country where alcohol is illegal then your friend could have valid concerns about the rest of you drinking. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

dennis m. arroyo
what is the biography of dennis m. arroyo who wrote smart studying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.97.174.236 (talk) 11:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ghits says he is a weather expert and smart study guides/books are written by other people. No personal article here – outshone by Gloria Arroyo and others. Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

C-Class
I assess many articles for WikiProject Devon and I've just noticed a new "C-Class" category appear on the assessment categories. I've never heard of C-Class and I can't find any information about it (all the categories are empty). Can anyone point me in the right direction? bsrboy (talk) 15:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It comes from the article grading scheme. See the discussion here. There is also a category of C-Class articles Jessica  N10248  15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You may also be interest Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment Nil Einne (talk) 17:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

HELP - Anti-shoplifter security device still attached to garment bought abroad?????
Help please - as above, I bought my wife a really expensive coat whilst on holiday in the Canary Islands and despite being able to walk out of the shop without sounding any alarms, we have just found upon our return to the UK that the security device is still attached to the coat. It is a finger long plastic affair that is pinned through the fabric and seems to be attached to a chrome-dome about half-an-inch in diameter inside the garment. I have tried separating the two parts with no success, and a friend advises against forcing it with pliers etc. as he says it is filled with a dye that will leak onto the garment if I do succeed in breaking it. So what can I do? The return airfare or the postage and return costs would make the effort non-viable when set against the cost of the coat. Is all lost or do you good people have a solution? Hope so. Many thanks in advance. 92.9.128.208 (talk) 18:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm rather skeptical about the dye packet, why would the shop want to destroy their own products ? I'd go ahead and force it, but wear old clothes and do it in the bathtub just in case. StuRat (talk) 18:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, this is very common. The ink is in there to deny the use of the product to the shoplifter and further discourage theft because people know that even if they can sneak it out, it won't be useful to them.  Forcing it open is a great way to end up with a garment that screams "someone stole me".  Jessica's freeze advice is probably the best so far, store-keepers are unlikely to assume anything other than 'this is shoplifted'. - C HAIRBOY  (☎) 20:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it a well know supermarket chain? If so you could take it into the same shop in the UK with the receipt and explain the situation. They should detach it easily without much fuss. Jessica  N10248  18:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * To the second response No, it was a very specialised high-fashion store and to StuRat, maybe you should consult Benefit-Denial within Wikipedia as I did before posing the request for help. More responses welcome please.92.9.128.208 (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Go to a shop where identical alarming gadgets are used (there seem to be only a few manufacturers) and explain your predicament. If the sales personnel is reasonably helpful, they will unlock the device with a special detacher.  As you have not triggered an alarm when leaving the original shop, the gizmo has presumably been deactivated by the local sales person who forgot to remove it.  Some (but not all) of these EAS (electronic article surveillance) gadgets do, indeed, contain ink capsules.  As you state, it has the cute name of benefit denial.
 * Maybe your wife would appreciate an expensive polka-dotted coat? I have seen female leopards wear them... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe you could freeze it so that the ink doesn't go everywhere if you decide to break it. Jessica  N10248  19:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I know the security devices you're talking about, many clothes shops use them. Go to some shop that has similar devices and get them to remove it, show them your reciept.-- Serviam  (talk)  19:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Does your tag look at all like the one in this article? 79.66.20.219 (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Right - Good - Brilliant - Thanks. I am off to a local fashion store tomorrow who have promised to try to help me remove the tag - so long as I bring in the receipt which is not a problem. Failing that, I shall resort carefully to my toolshed - and trust that the all-knowing and ever-helpful StuRat will forgive me foregoing his suggestion of an early ink-bath. Thanks to all though. All suggestions muchly appreciated. 92.9.128.208 (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that removal (possibly separate from electronic deactivation) is done magnetically. The block at the till against which they press the tag is a powerful (possibly neodymium) magnet, and this retracts some ferrous latches inside the device so that the two halves can be separated. Worth a try? 81.187.153.189 (talk) 13:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi each. I am the OP and thought you all deserved an update. I did go to my local ASDA Superstore today where they were supremely helpful. At one point I had 4 assistants trying to remove the tag with their various devices but despite their valiant efforts the bl.... thing wouldn't budge. Along came the department manager who also tried with no luck. I was becoming extremely embarrassed that I was taking up so much of their time, though no other customers were at that time being inconvenienced, when along came the head of security who also failed to remove the tag. So he took the coat into his office (with me having to remain outside), and emerged several hammer-blows later with the coat in one hand and the now separated tag in the other. No ink, no dye stains, no screeching security signal - nothing. And he even escorted me through the security pillars to my car just in case I activated their system. Well done I say, and thanks immensely to everyone here and there. My wife shall go to the ball with her new coat after all. "Oh, what was his secret?" I hear you all ask. Well, he told me he didn't think the device was a dye-stainer so he just attacked it with a screwdriver and the device separated into 2 pieces, though the retaining pin did break off in the process. Thanks again to one and all, especially ASDA. 92.23.47.32 (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm interesting. At least now we know not to shop-lift in the CIs... :-P I guess since it was a very expensive coat perhaps they could afford a fancy (and expensive) security tag. Nil Einne (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It was nice of you to give us the rest of the story, and it's nice to know there are such nice, helpful people in retail. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 07:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So, I was right, there's no ink packet, and forcing it was the way to go. StuRat (talk) 12:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If I was her I would have just worn it to the ball with the device intact to increase my street cred. --Sean 14:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone want my password on MySpace
I got a message from a friend on MySpace and she wants my E-mail address. I gave my E-mail addresses to her. Now, she wants my password. She says she will not give it to someone. Is this phishing? Should I report her to MySpace customer service? What should I do? Jet (talk) 22:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would you even consider giving this person your password? Your password is for you to edit your myspace page, to control your list of friends, to decide what appears in your profile, and so on.  Giving your password to another person is giving all that "power" to them, including the power to change the password so you can no longer use your myspace account.
 * If you read the phishing article, you will quickly realise that this person's request is not a phishing attack. But if this person continues to harrass you for more personal details, then yes, do report them to customer service.  Astronaut (talk) 00:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you don't actually know this person, it is a form of phishing. If they are your friend, then it is a friend asking you for your password, and you can decide to trust them or not. Mac Davis (talk) 01:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What kind of friend would ask and expect you to give your password to them? Remember, power corrupts. Julia Rossi (talk) 04:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you clarify; do they want the password for your myspace account or your email account? Not that it really matters, either way I wouldn't give it to them - but if they got control of your email account they could do a lot more damage. For example, not only would they have your email, which they could use to impersonate you, but with a little work they could also gain control of every account on any site you have, including Wikipedia, via the "email my password to me" feature. I can't see any legitimate reason someone would need to know your account password. Jessica  N10248  14:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well some sites (not wikipedia though I think) have a secret question or similar thing before they will reset your password so depending on how close the friend is and what your question is, they may or may not be able to reset these passwords. However if you re-use your passwords, and many people do, then since some sites will still send your current password rather then resetting the password they may be able to get the password you use on many sites. Nil Einne (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Those secret question and answer setups are very low security, and seem like a really bad idea. When you set up a hotmail account, for example, a little bar rates the strength of your password and encourages you to select a good one in all the usual ways. But then it's compulsory to set up a question and answer to allow backdoor access to your account, and you can't write your own question any more; it has to be from a list of about 5 really obvious ones. It can't be hard to hack an account with a standard secret question and answer, if the average person set it up. 79.66.77.88 (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not ask the friend why they want it? You shouldn't give it to them in any case. You may consider the possibility that your friend's account has been compromised as well—it may not actually be your friend at all, it might be someone who is contacting all of the "friends" of your friend and seeing how many more accounts they can get. But again, don't give it out. You have honestly no reason to and they have honestly no valid reason to ask for it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What is significance of a hollow 5 pointed star tattoo?
In the last six months or so I have noticed a lot of girls that have this. I was wondering if you have a tattoo art page that can help me? Thanks, Hey, I&#39;m Just Curious (talk) 23:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it look like this?  Corvus cornix  talk  00:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No. It's empty on the inside. It's bassically a five point outline.Hey, I&#39;m Just Curious (talk) 01:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I take it you want to know about the meaning of the shape, not how to do a tattoo. In tattooing, hollow means it's not coloured in afaik. Someone has been asking a similar question around the net with minor variations and got this answer a pentagram is produced which is considered a symbol of mystical and magical significance. It has been associated with Venus and the worship of the Goddess Venus. So it is a possibility that your daughter has such inclinations. It also has associations with Freemasons. And another at that site about gaydar stars. That it?  Julia Rossi (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And, of course, the pentogram is a symbol of evil, devil worship, etc. I'd guess the girls with those tattoos are goths, meaning they pretend to believe in that stuff. StuRat (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that I severely doubt it is an 'upside-down' pentagram, it is far more likely to be worn by someone wishing to invoke the good symbolism, such as a wiccan. And if someone didn't know about goths and wanted to know what they actually are (in the modern sense), see goth subculture. 79.66.22.23 (talk) 15:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The pentagram per se is not a symbol of evil, StuRat! It represents the human condition, with the points standing for the five senses and, as the above anon points out, is a positive, not negative symbol. Inverted, however, it represents the subversion of the five senses and is thus associated with evil (or, at least, the "left hand path"). Mind you, I suppose if the person getting the tattoo is a Wikipedian, it could be a barnstar ;) Grutness...wha?  23:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In any case, an empty star is not a pentagram. The girls I've seen with them are not goths—they are usually "indy" or "punk" types, like this girl or this one. I don't think they have any strong, shared meaning. They just look "cool" and "different", and have a very different vibe than, say, "tribal" tattoos or pictures of naked ladies and the like. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that these stars are just a fad with no deeper meaning. I see them everywhere, so in a few years they'll undoubtedly look as lame and hackneyed as tribal and Asian-character tattoos.  Buyer beware.  --Sean 14:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly copying Tom Fletcher's tattoos. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, OR and all, I asked an experienced tattooist at a ttatoo shop who said they're a "soft" version of the pentagram, a slippery slope to wicca and other things –– included for putting the wind up anyone who cares about these things,  Julia Rossi (talk) 09:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)