Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 May 22

= May 22 =

I have two questions - a linguistic one and general one
1. What is the name of a round, usually wooden, instrument in English, that has metal rings on sides, so when you hodl it in your hand and shake your hand it makes sound? In Serbian we call it daire, but I don't know what is its name in English.

And secondly, I've been always curious about this. When TV anchors says 'yesterday's show generated 2.3 million viewers blah blah blah', how do TV networks measure viewerships? I mean, how do they always know how many people tune in to some program or TV station?

I know these are totally separated questions, but I figured this is where to go for the answer! :)

Thank you!!

Svetlana Miljkovic (talk) 00:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Audience measurement. Specifically, in America, the popular ones are the Nielsen Ratings, in the UK they're the Broadcasters' Audience Research Board, and there's a specific article on Television ratings in Australia. There are other companies, but these are the big ones and the ones we have articles for. 206.126.163.20 (talk) 00:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. That would be a tambourine I believe. 76.22.123.202 (talk) 00:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps more specifically: a Dayereh. Unfortunately, there is not a Serbian language version of that article.  Astronaut (talk) 01:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, but there is: Даире (инструмент). But it interwikilinks to tambourine on en.wikipedia, and now it interwikilinks from Dayereh to sr.wikipedia. :S ---Sluzzelin talk  02:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Swearing
Why are swear words considered taboos? It's not like they hurt anyone. For example, in elementary school sex-ed, the teacher will say the words "sex" and "intercource" over and over again, and yet if an elementary student were to say "fuck", they would get a detention even thought the words mean the same thing. It just makes no sense to me, and I have yet to get a good explanation.  You're   dreaming   eh?   02:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They indicate an extreme lack of respect, or even hostility. When someone says "fuck you" they are not saying "intercourse you", they are attempting to indicate great disrespect and often anger. It is this latter translation, not the literal one, that is taken umbrage with. Anyway, I'm sure someone on the Linguistics desk could give a more thorough explanation of swear words and their role in communication. Rest assured, communication is not about literal translation much of the time. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I do have an argument for that, but I'll take it to the Linguistics desk.  You're   dreaming   eh?   03:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As an interesting (and somewhat relevant) addition, my "theory that I have but cannot prove" is that the idea of 'fuck you' is as a passive and non-volitional meaning, and thus rape and humiliation. Of course, that might seem obvious to everyone else, but it came to me in a flash of inspiration. Steewi (talk) 05:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How come I can't find this user's contribution page? Just a user page and no talk page either. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that's because you clicked on the "eh?" which leads to a user sub-page. If you click on "You're" you get the user page with talk page and contributions. ---Sluzzelin talk  10:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks, Sluzzelin, *illumination* : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 10:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Heres an interesting article . I remember reading it at the time and thought it was good. Fribbler (talk) 11:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're interested in the subtleties of swearing, Maledicta is a good place to go to. Here is their website. See also archived questions from over two months (emerging question on the topic of taboos) and almost two years ago. ---Sluzzelin talk
 * And if you're not interested in the subtleties, there's always Gordon Ramsay who calls it cheffy-language and doesn't recommend it to non-chefs (especially his underlings talking back to him). Julia Rossi (talk) 23:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And while my pop-up dictionary has popped up, its definition is 1. sexual intercourse and 2. to ruin or damage; and fyi, lists fuck in 14 variants. So if you think it's okay and use it on someone who doesn't, they'll likely react badly, so run.  : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Article Creation by IPs nullified?!
Here is the article(Placed here, since all I get is "Unauthorized")

Article Title: GET US OUT!

Article:

The organization, called GET US OUT! is a US organization that charges that the UN is corrupt, anti-American, worse. Claims include the UN being the "World Government" or is part of the World Government, that the UN wants to terminate the soverignty of the US, disarm the American people, so that foregin armies can occupy the destroyed US, destroy all Christians.

See Also


 * United Nations
 * World Government

External Links
 * www.getusout.com

As a IP I cannot place this, any articles. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 02:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Help desk and New contributors' help page are for wikipedia questions, this page is for general questions. 206.126.163.20 (talk) 03:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You might want to see Articles for Creation. However, I highly doubt that this article will be posted as is. It has a highly anti-UN POV (see WP:NPOV). It also sounds almost as if you are part of the group, meaning you have a conflict of interest. Thirdly, without reliable, outside sources it might be seen as non-notable. Paragon12321 (talk) 03:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. Been there, done that. Negative results 2. I am NOT in ANY org, much less that one. 3.The Organization's signs are all over the Texas area, especially all over the highways near Port O' Connor, Port Lavaca, and Victoria, all in Texas. There are other signs like that all over Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona, other places. Each sign measured 4' X 1.5' to 8' X 2' has the organization's name on it, a profanity riddled comment about the UN, such as "They're commin' to take your (censored) guns, you (censored) idiots","Are you a Christian? The UN will lock up your (censored)(censored) in prison, mental hospitals", worse. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Great, I don't know what you want us to do then. 24.76.169.85 (talk) 04:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope it is a malfunction. Just got a "Database Locked" error message while answering a question. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 04:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can someone make it Wikipedia compliant? I can't due to a weird malfunction. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 05:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just tried to creat a article, say about a BIG "Z"(silly I'm sure). Got the SAME problem. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 05:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just found out that IPs cannot create articles. Maybe there should be a IP corner for IPs to create articles. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 07:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. Finally I got a straight answer. *Me hugging, kissing a female Admin, shaking hands with a male Admin!* 65.163.115.254 (talk) 07:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're the Fox News/UFO guy, aren't you? Hi there, I quite enjoy your breathless contributions to the Ref Desks.  Why not just create an account?  That way you can create as many articles as you like.  However, I suspect that if you were to create an article on this "organization", it would be swiftly deleted due to not meeting the Wikipedia notability criterion.  By the way, did you notice that the "organization" is in fact a front for the John Birch Society? --Richardrj talkemail 07:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not only no, but HELL NO. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 07:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not know that about the org either. 65.163.115.254 (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, you technically have an account as an IP. Making it named so you can actually create pages is probably less of a personal intrusion, since IPs make more information public than a regular account.  In fact, current user account guidelines allow you to essentially create an account solely to make an article and then forget about it. --Haemo (talk) 09:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Restless mind
I am being troubled by my restless mind.I always seem to live in my fantasies and never get into the real world. I imagine myself fighting with martial artists but in real I dont even have guts to face when somebody slaps me unjustly or challenges me to a fight. I imagine myself as a genius and a scientist but my academics and IQ are hopeless. My attention span is hopeless (its about 10 to 15 minutes maximum) and I even get mentally tired easily. How can I become mentally resillent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.246.173.175 (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While Wikipedia is not going to give you medical advice, you might consider seeing a doctor or psychiatrist about that &mdash; at the very least they can recommend some mental exercises which might help your concentration. --Haemo (talk) 09:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Such as meditation perhaps. Some types are specifically designed to aid concentration.--Shantavira|feed me 12:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * While we can't give medical advice, have you tried looking under neurology and some of the different things that are out there? I have a guess...from the attention span...and while I'm not saying it's what you have it's probably the same thing you guessed, too. You can certainly do a search or look at attention span and see if it sounds plausible. Colin Cowherd, an ESPN radio talk show host, guessed the same thing for himself as I'm thinking for you, through just research on his own. But, only a doctor can say for sure.209.244.30.221 (talk) 15:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Also wishing to avoid giving any medical advice, you might try to look into your sleep pattern and your diet. If it were me, I'd try an Elimination diet starting with caffeine and sugar.  Is having a restless mind really that bad, though?  These days there is a tendency to medicate everyone into conformity.  You could instead see if you can not benefit from being different.  There are career options for creative and unconventional individuals {see Art, Landscaping, Writer, Cartoonist, Designer, Game design Copywriting Inventor for just a few.)  Since you know what your idiosyncacies are, you might be able to establish a support network and methods for yourself to cope.  If you can't do the same thing for more than 15 min., set up several tasks simultaneously, get yourself a little timer and switch every 15 min. (Hey presto, dishes, laundry and sorting the bills all done!)  Find out what tasks you can't do and don't be bashful about hiring help for those.  If you can't work within the constraints of a company nor deal with the ins and outs of running your own company, try to find a business drone to partner up with.  (Keep a close eye on them, it's not uncommon to get cheated.)  If you can write about your imaginary life as martial artist or scientist, please do!  I'm always looking for something interesting to read or watch on TV rather than those awful reality shows :-}--71.236.23.111 (talk) 17:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is just anecdote and OR, but it's to let you know not to worry too much about IQ tests. Someone I know won a world medal in math yet couldn't get past the easy stages in iq answers at school. Check out the rest of your symptoms though. Going with special con 71.236, there's a classic on a dreamer The Secret Life of Walter Mitty and probably a few since, so if you can, turn it into material. When you get more settled you could try a creative writing class. Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How do i challenge inaccurate information?
On the ballistics trauma section it states:

"the range at which the victim was shot; i.e. wounds inflicted by 7.62x39mm bullets fired from a distance of 5 metres will invariably be more severe than those fired from a range of 500 metres. The velocity of a bullet (and therefore its destructive potential) gradually reduces as it travels from the muzzle of a firearm. "

That is compeltely wrong. The longer the distance a bullet travels, especially RIFLE/ASSAULT RIFLE type rounds, the more chance they have of KEYHOLING or tumbling in flight. Or simply bouncing off things, penetrating objects and deforming yet hitting their target. The resualt is catastrophic. Shooting someone with anything FMJ (full metal jacket) from a short distance will normally cause the bullet to go right through causing minimal tissue damage (of course if it doesnt hit the heart, brain, liver, etc.) and will more than likely be found in the dirt, gun range backstop or wherever completely undeformed, almost as if you could reload it and fire it again.

Scott Nichols Gun enthusiast and gun knowitall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.110.245 (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Start by bringing up your concerns on the talk page of the relevant article (see the "discussion" tab at the top of that page. I would assume this is Talk:Ballistic trauma in this instance.  Then see if you can find reliable sources that back up your information.  We seek to have as much information as possible sourced back to mainstream publications like "Gun Knowitall Weekly" rather than individuals.  Once you've got that, edit the article (or add the source to the talk page and request someone else add it).  Where you insert the statement, please also add something to the effect of or whatever the source information may be.  This will help ensure your contributions aren't deleted as idle speculation.  Hope this helps! &mdash; Lomn 13:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you have a source and the existing text doesn't, just go ahead make the change yourself and cite the source as Lomn suggests. If you don't have a source, or the sources conflict, you should discuss it on the talk page.  --Sean 14:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How to change voicemail
I changed my voicemail to a Rickroll that goes for 3 minutes and 25 seconds and now I've forgotten the number to call to change it to something else. My simcard is Virgin Mobile. --124.254.77.148 (talk) 12:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * According to here, you should dial 212 and follow the instructions. Algebraist 12:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Logo: ?!
Is there a pre-existing brand logo that is made up of only a question mark and exclamation point? Example: ?!

I've tried searching the USPTO database but wasn't really able to get it to show me anything. It's an idea I had but I want to make sure I'm not accidentally copying something else I've seen but forgotten I've seen.

Just curious if anyone else has seen it somewhere, if it rings a bell, if it's something obvious that I'm overlooking. I have major problems with cryptomnesia when it comes to graphic design, where I'll end up with something that looks awesome and then a day later I'll realize I subconsciously copied the motif from a book cover I saw years ago—I've got a near photographic memory for the content of images but I don't always remember where they're from, it's a bad combination! ;-) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * When the two marks are superimposed, the symbol is called an interrobang. That article indicates that the interrobang is used in the logo for Partnership for a Drug-Free America.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  16:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Weird! Thanks. That's not at all what I was going to do with it, but that's good to know. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rally the troops
I need a short speach preferably by a great leader, that I can edit slightly, to then recite to my band members before a gig, something to rally the troops, or to boost moral. any ideas? I was thinking of Churchill, we will rock them on the beaches, we will rock them on the streets, we will rock them in the cities, and NEVER sleep! But this is a bit to obvious and they will know where I got it from. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Zionist
 * Patton's Speech to the Third Army (note: the full speech is available here; the article only includes choice quotes)? Angus Lepper(T, C, D) 16:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * there's also a slightly different version of the speech here: http://www.pattonhq.com/speech.html, which seems to contain more swearing. Does anyone know which version is the most accurate? Not that historical accuracy really matters here.HS7 (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
 * Or close the wall up with our English dead.
 * In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
 * As modest stillness and humility:
 * But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
 * Then imitate the action of the tiger;
 * Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
 * Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.
 * Henry V, Act III Scene i Malcolm XIV (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Or, also from Henry V:
 * We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
 * For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
 * Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
 * This day shall gentle his condition:
 * And gentlemen in England now a-bed
 * Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
 * And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
 * That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day"
 * Matt Deres (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Speech to the Troops at Tilbury? Adam Bishop (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Where to buy casual cravat?
Sorry in advance if this doesn't qualify as an appropriate question for here.

I'm in the UK, near London. Can anyone recommend a shop (in the real world) which sells what this site calls casual cravats?

Thanks, D  aniel  (‽) 18:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Any well stocked menswear shop - outside bespoke Savage Row - should have what looks like the real Croatian McCoy to me. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tie Rack perhaps? I'm pretty sure I've seen them in Marks & Sparks--80.176.225.249 (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, Savile Row, too. Just think of Lord Arthur Savile's Crime. Xn4  23:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Harrods, of course!--Artjo (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I looked in one Tie Rack, and couldn't find any, but it's possible that there are better-stocked Tie Racks elsewhere which I shall peruse if the opportunity arises. The same goes for your other suggestions (although I can't say I'm a regular customer at Saville Row). Thanks for the advice. D  aniel  (‽) 13:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Searches through various store sites (Debenhams, M+S, House of Fraser, Next, Monsoon...) didn't yield any treasures. If you have a sewing machine, and a minimal sewing skill, vogue patterns V7644 has a pattern for a cravat which they call an Ascot. SaundersW (talk) 15:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * New & Lingwood.  Milk Float  15:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I get mine from the local Charity shops (Oxfam, RSPCA, Help the Aged, etc). It's surprising how many you find... Samilong (talk) 10:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Life Insurance Beneficiary
If there two people named as beneficiaries to a life insurance policy. Are they payed separately or are both of their names on one check.Dstoppa (talk) 20:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds like the sort of thing that might vary from one country to another, maybe from one company to another, and maybe even from one policy to another (that is, it could be at the insured person's option). Best to contact the relevant company and ask them. --Anonymous, 20:50 UTC, May 22, 2008.


 * As an aside, a UK insurance company advertising 'whole life policies' states that if you stop investing then "you get nothing back". You don't get it back anyway once you are dead !!--Artjo (talk) 06:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect the above comment was "tongue-in-cheek" but could be misleading to the OP. The fact is that Whole Life Policies only pay out on death - there is no investment value attaching to them - and clearly, they cannot pay out to the insured life (who will be dead). What the above humorous comment alludes to is that if the insured life ceases to pay his premiums (whilst still living), HE will not get a refund. As to the OP's question, any sums payable after the death of the insured life will go into that ex-person's estate and be re-distributed according to any Will that was made whilst still living. In the event of there being no Will, the estate will be wound up and distributed by a named executor, failing whom, a nominated executor, both situations being ratified in Law by an appointed lawyer, who will take fat fees for the service. All the foregoing is based on UK Testacy and Inheritance Law - but is not to be taken as Legal Advice, merely information.92.21.248.30 (talk) 10:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Would it make sense that...?
I was thinking about this for a while and decided to bring it to Wikipedia:

If you were really good at doing something, wouldn't it imply that you would be good at doing the opposite thing?

Let me explain, suppose you are the world's most skilled assassin, wouldn't that also imply that you would (potentially) be the world's best bodyguard? If you are the "best" assassin, then you'd be able to recognize weaknesses in security or be able to secure areas that assassins normally would know.

Along the same lines of thought, wouldn't a world-renowned thief be able to construct a perfect vault?

Is there a word (or a phrase) to describe the relationship between two different jobs that imply this?

Thanks for your time.

Cheers!

❦  ECH3LON   ❦  20:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, specifically in the area of security we have the proverb "set a thief to catch a thief" and the job of being on a "tiger team".  I can't think of anything that generalizes the concept to other areas, like a structural engineer working as a demolitions expert or vice versa, although people might describe these by using the proverb as well.  --Anonymous, edited 20:54 UTC, May 22, 2008.


 * If you were really good at doing something, wouldn't it imply that you would be good at doing the opposite thing? - No, not always. For example, a good writer rarely becomes a good critic, or it is very hard to a good goalkeeper to be a good striker. 89.146.74.28 (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As to the word you're looking for, I'd say "counterpart" is far more accurate than "opposite". Why, for instance, isn't the opposite of an assassin an avowed pacifist?  That doesn't jive very well with the job requirements of a bodyguard, but it perhaps fits a doctor.
 * As to counterpart competency, I like 89...'s example above -- someone is likely to have a mental understanding of their counterpart's job, but that's not necessarily going to translate into practical competence. &mdash; Lomn 21:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, this isn't even an issue of opposites or counterparts! To use the assassin/bodyguard example given above, it's a question of a person having thorough experience, knowledge and understanding of security, and then applying that knowledge in one way or another -- to breach or reinforce it. That same competence could also enable a person to be a good security consultant, a trainer in security-related skills, a person who plans assaults on or infiltration of secure locations (for military or law enforcement purposes, for example), someone who works with architects when a building is being designed to make sure that it's designed in a way that's conducive to maintaining good security, or even a writer who specializes in realistic fiction in the appropriate genre. Among many other things. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Walking in someone else's shoes." comes to mind as a descriptive term. 71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd say that it's generally true that if you excel in one area of life, you're likely to excel in various others as well. But not necessarily in the "opposite" things.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I was thinking more along the lines of a job/expertise, that gives the person applicable experience to do something often contrary to their original job/expertise (eg. an expert hacker designing a firewall program), I was wondering if there was a word or phrase to describe this relationship, like counterpart (although I don't think it's the right word) Cheers! ❦   ECH3LON   ❦  00:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Could Sherlock Holmes become the "Napoleon of crime" while Professor Moriarty became the world's greatest consulting detective? Edison (talk) 00:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it all depends on what version of opposite you use. For example, the opposite of an assassin (one who takes life) could be Gandhi (who objects to taking of life), a bodyguard (who protects life), or a doctor (who restores life). Similarly, the opposite of any of those things could be an assassin, soldier, serial killer, Shaolin monk, knight, or guerilla. But yes, if the definition of opposite is someone in the same field who uses the same expertise to opposite ends, then your axiom holds true.  Ziggy  Saw  dust  00:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That reminds me of that fire fighter who attempted to become the perfect arsonist, would "converse" be the appropriate word by chance? The only flaw with it is that it does not imply that the two things require the same (expertise/reasoning/etc...) Cheers! ❦  ECH3LON   ❦  00:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * From recent experience working with the Fire Service, I have noticed that senior firefighters are fascinated by fire, fireworks, garden flares, bonfires, and will use any of the above at the slightest provocation. Firefighters also appear fascinated by lighting training fires in order to control them and put them out. There is a smaller distance between firefighters and firelighters than might at first appear. SaundersW (talk) 08:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Politicians often become lobbyists, and journalists sometimes go into public relations. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * And people switch between being prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges... another case where it isn't clear which ones are really "opposites". --Anonymous, 04:34 UTC, May 23, 2008.


 * Again, that's clearly a case of legal expertise being applied in various ways. This idea of "opposites" has a great deal of thematic appeal to me, and in a work of fiction, it's pretty interesting -- but honestly, it strikes me as kind of misguided when applied to the real world. It's a simplification of reality that ignores real-world dynamics. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at ECH3LON's examples (but not at some of those provided by others), they are restricted to running the same race of wits and technology against and opposite of one another other, and with the line of legality between them (making it easy to attribute "sides" that can be switched). I still don't know what to call these pairings, except antagonists. And this cliché of inverted mirroring came to my mind. Speaking of Moriarty and Holmes, Flambeau is one literary example of a criminal mind that became a detective mind. ---Sluzzelin talk  10:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a phrase (in UK English at least) "poacher turned gamekeeper", which describes what you're talking about pretty well. --  Ka renjc 16:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I take it you'd still be doing the same thing but for opposite reasons, like the hero in Catch Me if You Can -- it can depend on your values, position in life, outlook and opportunities. Even former txxxls or ex-vxxxxls sometimes become good wikieditors. I like mirror or counterpart, especially when police and criminals are compared. But no ex-cons become policemen because they've got records.  Julia Rossi (talk) 01:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)