Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 October 7

= October 7 =

Wikipedia calendars
The previous question brought to my attention the calendars that Wikipedia uses with each week beginning on Monday. Most of the printed calendars I have seen have each week beginning on Sunday. Is there a reason that Wikipedia's begin on a Monday? Was there discussion about this? —D. Monack talk 03:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't really answer your question, but since we got an edit conflict I will point out that I got in trouble in primary school for starting the day of the week with Monday instead of Sunday. From the argument that resulted between my parents and the teacher it seems like starting on Monday is something that originated in Ireland/England and has some religious significance to it, whereas starting on Sunday is the more accepted format. I personally go with Monday being the first day of the week, because otherwise Sunday is more of a weekstart rather than a weekend. 138.130.144.33 (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "is more of a weekstart rather than a weekend." Every line segment has two ends. APL (talk) 13:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that Sunday, being the Christian sabbath, was traditionally considered the most important day of the week, and thus was considered to be the start of the week. The concept of the "weekend", which just happens to include Sunday, is a relatively recent arrival, and only because the majority of employment conditions stopped requiring people to work on at least a part of Saturday.  I can still remember when mail was delivered on a Saturday, and there were 2 deliveries on week days.  Now it's one delivery on weekdays, then you wait till Monday.  The "working week" starts on Monday; but many places and people still regard the "week" as beginning on Sunday.  But it's not formalised anywhere, and it's essentially arbitrary, so in a particular context you can start the week on any day you please. --  JackofOz (talk) 06:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't get mail on Saturdays? Gwinva (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not snail mail, anyway. Do you?  --  JackofOz (talk) 07:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In the States we do, in Canada no. --Trovatore (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * UK yes; NZ yes. Gwinva (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow. We changed all that back in, I think, the mid-70s.  I wouldn't like to say whether this is progress or the reverse.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the idea of Sunday as the first day is not so much because it's the most important, as that according to Genesis, the very first day was a Sunday. God rested on the seventh day, which was Saturday (the original Sabbath).
 * By the way, one possible interpretation of "weekend" is like "bookends" -- they're the days at both ends of the week, not just the latter end. --Trovatore (talk) 07:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That doesn't work - "bookends" is plural - the thing at each end is a bookend, the two together are bookends. Saturday isn't "A weekend" - and Saturday and Sunday together are not "Weekends".  For your theory to be correct, both Saturday and Sunday would be weekends and we have two weekends each week...but we don't. SteveBaker (talk) 11:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd always understood that the business week ran from Monday, whereas an actual week ran from Sunday. This fits with the business diaries I use, in which a week covers 2 sides, 3 days on the first side, 4 on the second, with the weekend squashed into 1 day's worth - I guess because you were unlikely to have appointments on the weekend. --WORM | MЯOW 07:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't seem to have an article, but we do have a short section on this. It fails to mention that in some places, weeks begin on Thursday. Algebraist 08:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * See ISO 8601, particularly the week numbering part. To number weeks you have to define when a week starts, and ISO defines the start day as Monday. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Martin.

Help With Meat
Ok I'm in really deep shit because I just cooked about 10 frankfurts for my dinner when I was only meant to cook 3. I'm not up to eating them all, and my roomate's going to kill me if I throw them out. Can I put them back into the fridge? If not what can I do with them? 138.130.144.33 (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, just put them in the fridge and reheat them tomorrow.  Plasticup  T / C  03:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, franks are pre-cooked. All you really did was warm them up.  You can safely eat the cold, straight from the store, as well.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that the gustatory quality is unlikely to be improved by repeated heating and chilling, but the nutritional content may remain about the same, in terms of the grams of protein, carbohydrate and fat. Edison (talk) 04:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I only know two frankfurts (Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder). Where are the other eight? --Trovatore (talk) 07:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the Australian term for a frankfurter, according to Frankfurt (disambiguation). Algebraist 08:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure at Harry Frankfurt's family reunions, there are more Frankfurts than at a Walla Walla weenie roast. Darkspots (talk) 12:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There'd be no weenies there. We call them "little boys" (snigger), "saveloys", or "cocktail franks".  But there may be many weenies in this Walla Walla. --  JackofOz (talk) 21:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As a rule of thumb, you can safely reheat food once. More than that is risky (every time you heat and cool it down it spends a while being warm which is when germs grow the most). --Tango (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Question regarding academic dishonesty

 * Note:Question title changed to a more descriptive title --Jayron32. talk . contribs 12:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I know someone who cheated on a test of Alevels and i am very angry because he got an A he does not deserve and i had to work hard to get my A. How can i report this to OCR? --JD77 (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Free advice you didn't ask for: karma will bite him in the ass eventually, you don't have to lift a finger. Let it go, these people are their own rewards. Darkspots (talk) 12:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * For non-UK readers, A levels are the examinations upon which entrance to university is based and OCR is one of the bodies that conduct the exams. To the questioner: you need to gather evidence you have that the person cheated and then write to OCR with the details. Send a copy to the examining centre (i.e. the school or college.) You can make the report anonymously but if you want it to be taken seriously then eventually you may need to reveal your name. If you are not absolutely sure that this person cheated, then you should not make the complaint. But if you think there are weaknesses in the system so that cheating is possible, you should write to OCR and QCA about this. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The OP may not have any evidence that they can give OCR except their own written statement. They may have seen the person consulting notes during an exam, for example.  That is not provable by the OP but that does not mean the matter should end there.  The OP should be able to write to OCR with their suspicions and OCR should investigate the allegation themselves.  Once an allegation has been made the onus should be on OCR to satisfy themeselves as to whether it is true or not.  Yes, that might mean that OCR could get a large number of baseless allegations which they would have to investigate but I think that comes with the territory.  See Whistleblower. --Richardrj talkemail 12:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If I were in this position, I would discuss my concerns with the (alleged) cheater and ask that he cancel his score and retake the test. He will probably take it as implicit that if he doesn't do so you might tell the testing board, you will have done him a kindness both in giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him an opportunity to correct his ways if he did in fact cheat, and it might be more effective since you probably don't have any incontrovertible evidence against him.  --Sean 14:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Or said cheater will punch you in the mouth and then tell the entire school that you are a "snitch". I mean, in an ideal fantasy world good would out and bad would get their just desserts but in real life there are practical reasons for not necessarily taking it upon yourself to confront people. You have to judge the circumstances as they are. We don't necessarily live in a movie where the good guy always wins. There are many societies in which denouncing a peer can lead to unpleasant consequences. I'm all about punishing the bad guy but that's a lot harder to do if you're on the same peer level as them. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a school full of people that worked hard to get their grades would not side with the cheater. --Tango (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, you must not have gone to my school, then! --140.247.11.36 (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you just cancel a score? You would have to admit to cheating (why else would you do it?) and if you do that they are likely to cancel all your exams scores (at least, all the ones with that exam board) and you would have to resit everything. --Tango (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, in the UK system you cannot cancel an A Level score. It will be permanently on the record. I have never heard of a case in which a student who gained an A grade would retake the exam. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would probably find someone at your school (a teacher, an advisor, whatever) who you really trust, and tell them about it, tell them you don't really want to have your name personally associated with it, but impress them with your sincerity. Then, if they think it is worth pursuing, they can be the one who talks to the testing organization, talks to the student, whatever. Then you don't have to be the one calling out fellow students. Just my two cents. The likelihood is that they will say they have insufficient evidence and drop it (because unless cases of academic dishonesty are concrete administration doesn't usually try to pursue them—too much risk of getting accused of trying to slander someone's record). (I say this as a teacher who has been involved in a number of cases of academic dishonesty regarding students in the USA, anyway. I've gotten two kids kicked out of college for it so far! Be warned, kiddos!) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

←I saw several cases of cheating when I was in high school. Large assignments that were done collaboratively by a large number of students that were supposed to be individual work. Exams that people knew the answers to. People who cheated off my tests. I was frustrated, sure. But I slogged through studying for the exams on my own, wrote the papers, and now I have a nice body of knowledge of history and literature (to name two subjects where the worst dishonesty ocurred) that I draw on and add to. I never informed on anyone, and at no point in the intervening years (never mind how many) when I've run into these people have I regretted that choice. Some of them are miserable bastards. Their misery is not directly related to the cheating, but at least I can tell myself that I didn't ruin their lives, they did it to themselves. I'm sure my attitude has something to do with my finishing college and never getting near academia again; I'd feel differently if I were a teacher, I'm sure. But you did the work. You got the A level. Nobody can take that away from you, and you're proud of your knowledge, right? If you rat this guy out, ten years from now you'll see him and you'll feel small and vindictive, no matter how everything turns out for him. Whistleblowers who expose corruption and abuse of power do hard work that benefits society. All that hangs in the balance here is one man's career, and he's taken nothing away from you. My opinion, you should do the right thing for yourself. Darkspots (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * which of OCRs emails should i send something like this? --JD77 (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * People cheating does take away from other people's results, though. If people get results they don't deserve then it devalues the qualification. Consider how you would feel if both you and the cheater went up for the same job and he got it - had he not had that A, you would probably have got it instead. --Tango (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Email general.qualifications@ocr.org.uk. Say that you would like to report a case of cheating and would they let you know the appropriate address to write to. Make the actual report on paper. Don't give the person's name in the first letter but say what syllabus/module/type of assessment, why you think it was cheating and give them enough info so they can see where the weakness in the system was. Say you hope they will be able to investigate and if they can then you will supply more information. Remember they must get hundreds of letters from people who just hate their neighbours. They can't investigate all of them but they have a duty to investigate if there is something to go on. They also have a duty to continually improve their systems. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am gona make myself a new msn account to email anonymously. By doing that theres no way they can find out who i am right? --JD77 (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * But likely neither will they take your accusation seriously or be able to investigate it fully. If you want to get action taken, you will likely have to identity yourself. Also, they will be more likely to take your accusation seriously if you use correct capitalization, spelling, and grammar in your message, unlike in your posts above. —Lowellian (reply) 15:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You can take a softly-softly approach. Use either a new msn account or your own account. Say you would like to make an accusation of cheating against an individual and a general complaint about how easy it is to cheat. Ask how you should go about this. Keep it short and well spelt like an A Level student should. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It'd be nice to be able to say "the onus is on the anus to own up", which, morally, it is, but that's not what normally happens. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about A-levels, but here in the US where people take Advanced Placement (AP) classes, the College Board has an "Office of Testing Integrity" where violations can be reported. Maybe it would help if an equivalent for A-levels can be found.  bibliomaniac 1  5  00:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Media mail
Why does the United States Postal Service even offer the option of media mail, which is less expensive than regular parcel post? I was thinking about this, and my initial thought is that it seems economically disadvantageous to them to offer the option; it will only reduce their profits (imagine if they didn't offer the service of media mail: parcel post would still be cheaper then UPS, FedEx, DHL, so if you're going to ship a book, you'd have to use parcel post, and this would mean you'd be paying more, so USPS would be making more money). So why do they offer the option? —Lowellian (reply) 15:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I suspect its because books are much heavier per unit volume than most other items that are likely to be shipped; indeed shipping books would become prohibitively expensive if charged at the normal scales; the result would probably be that much fewer books would actually be shipped via the USPS. Additionally, while the United States Postal Service is semi-privatized (it used to be a full cabinet level executive department, but is now a government-created corporation, sort of like Fannie Mae, though it is not publicly traded), it is still highly regulated, much as a public utility is with regards to rate structure.  Even more so, since while the need to generate enough profit to be self-sufficient is important, the company is not publicly traded and so there is no need to maximize shareholder value.  Being that a working postal system is a public good there are incentives beyond merely profit pressure on how the USPS operates.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  16:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Several things to remember. 1) the USPS is a govermental organisation and I don't believe profit is their only priority particularly as they are a statutory monopoly. Media mail appears to be used to deliver stuff that are consider of potential educational or social value. 2) are you sure media mail receives the same treatment and level of service as regular parcel post? Possible differences include delivery time frames, handling (stuff in media mail shouldn't be too fragile so they can perhaps be a bit rougher with it), insurance, delivery to the mail box etc? 3) Is media mail easier to handle? I already mention it could probably be subject to rought treatment. Are the types of packages delivered via it also easier to handle? Are they less likely to have problems delivering it? Does it pose a lower security risk to their drivers? Is it easier for them to x-ray or examine the packages? Nil Einne (talk) 16:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Media mail is delivered on a "as time and space permit" basis: if they've got extra capacity at a sorting facility, or extra room on a truck, they'll process some media mail parcels. Most of the time, media mail isn't significantly slower than regular mail, but during busy times of the year (Christmas, tax season), it may be delayed by several weeks. --Carnildo (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Wearing flowers
Here is a link to a picture of the Japanese play The Echo, the Arrow and the Chain: http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00191/2525301.jpg How do they make the flowers stick so they don't fall off? Do they clamp them on their nipples or something? J I P | Talk 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would guess at double sided selotape, or some less painful equivalent. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not an expert on stage adhesives, but I do know that double-sided tape is frequently used in the fashion industry to ensure that revealing dresses and such don't become too revealing. Typically they are formulated with adhesives which are less likely to irritate the skin, leave lots of gummy residue, or hurt too much when you take them off.  A Google search for 'fashion tape', 'dress tape', or 'body tape' will reveal a multitude of suppliers and types. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Spirit gum. --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Drinking Club
This year my friends and I will be turning the legal drinking age (Uk, 18) how should I go about starting a drinking club for my friends, nothing too formal, I would just appreciate some ideas. Also advice for a relatively new drinker would be appreciated, thanks in advance, RobertsZ (talk) 16:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You could try meeting for regular tastings- choose something specific, like Pinot noir or Lambic, get three or four different examples of it, and taste and compare. The atmosphere of comparing the drinks will keep people from being as likely to overindulge, while the addition of food and music will make it fun for all. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was going to say the same thing as FQ. Learn to appreciate the taste and craft of liquor, and not merely the buzz obtained thereof.  Pick a night, like the first friday of each month, and make it a theme, like Whiskey or Red wine or something like that, provide food and other accompanyment appropriate to the theme, and learn to appreciate the drinks.  You don't have to be an expert to appreciate the differences, you just have to be willing to stop and take the time... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  16:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition, it might help to have an educative section where you learn/teach some of the words used to describe the flavours, tastes, etc. of the liquors, so that you can describe them to others when you have experienced them. Of course, if you just want to have get togethers to get drunk, it's somewhat less organisation. You might have been asking about things like affiliation and funding. It would be difficult to find some group or organisation to fund something like that, and university rules often forbid spending uni funding on alcohol, for legal reasons, so a university based club may be difficult. Good luck with the adventure. It is good to have people willing to organise new and interesting things. Steewi (talk) 02:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When I was at uni (Warwick, in the UK) I was very involved in running our Real Ale Society. I know similar societies exist at other universities - in a couple of cases we gave advice on starting up, and once even practical assistance and loan of equipment to help them run their first beer festival. Our society always trod a line between "appreciat[ing] the taste and craft of liquor" and "get togethers to get drunk" - emphasis varied from one to the other over the five years that I was associated with the society. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose it can also depend on how much you're willing to spend. It's much easier to "appreciate the taste and craft of liquor" when you're drinking something that actually tastes nice, and unfortunately that can get expensive (especially if some members of the group are in "get drunk" mode and are chucking it back at a rate of knots). FiggyBee (talk) 04:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Value for money.
Hi

I have never had value for money, and I don't really understand the concept.

An example of what I find confusing: Each one of these could give you the same amount of joy, so how do you know if it is good value for money?
 * A two hour movie will cost about £6 - this equates to 5p per minute
 * Go-karting for 10 mins will cost about £10 - this equates to £1 per minute
 * Indoor skydiving for 2 mins costs about £50 - this equates to £25 per minute

How do people know how much they should spend on things per week/month/year?

Every day I get a latte for a bit over £2, someone told me this is too much to spend per day on a coffee, yet I don't know what I should spend.

Generally, I just try to spend per day, less than my parents earn per day.

Please explain value for money.

Thanks 92.2.212.124 (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, you've got one of the key concepts right - spend less than you earn. Beyond that, value for money is very much a personal decision. If you get the same amount of joy from the 3 activities you describe, you'll want to go to the movies. If you get a real charge out of sky-diving though, you'll pay the extra money and maybe do it less often. You need to look at the "utility cost" - if I do activity X, what activities Y,Z and W will I not be able to do? I personally drink only freeze-dried coffee, because it tastes good to me and I can spend much less on coffee that way and use the saved money for other things that give me pleasure. In my case, I get more value-for-money drinking freeze-dried. If you cut out the daily latte (and have the discipline to save), you would have £730 extra after a year. That's enough to go on a holiday somewhere - so would you rather have the annual holiday or the daily latte? Franamax (talk) 20:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

See subjective theory of value. --Trovatore (talk) 20:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would rather have both.


 * I have always spent alot of money so people will think of me as upper-middle class (I'm actually midddle class). They wouldn't think of me as better than upper-middle because of my middle-class London accent. I still wanted to understand the concept though.


 * Anyway, thanks you have been really helpfull. 92.2.212.124 (talk) 20:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So you are saying that one of the values that money has for you has been buying people's good opinions? Well done for noticing this! Now you can choose whether or not, now you have noticed it, it still has value for you. (I'm not being flippant, and I hope I'm not being patronising: recognising the 'dramas' that we play is a big step in choosing how we want to live our lives). --ColinFine (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Answering the core question: If you normally buy Brand X of sugar, say, but you notice that there's a generic Brand Y that costs significantly less for the same quantity, you'd be getting value for money by buying Brand Y. You might be wise to check where it was produced and how it's packed, and satisfy yourself there's no difference in quality or chemical composition - but assuming there are no issues on those scores, buying the less expensive brand would be getting value for money. Or, if you normally buy your sugar a packet at a time whenever you need it, but you notice that there's a special on, you could buy a number of packets at the low price. It won't go off like milk. That's also getting value for money. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sugar is an interesting example because it allows you to consider other values than just what you get our of something. Is it worth paying extra for fairtrade sugar? It all comes down to how much you value the grower's well-being compared to how much you value whatever else you could buy with that extra money (due to the diminishing marginal utility of money, the value of whatever else you could buy will likely be more the poorer you are - if buying the more expensive sugar will stop you from being able to buy enough food for the week, you probably won't go for it, if it would only stop you buying one of your daily lattes, you might decide it's worth it). --Tango (talk) 23:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Much depends on whether or not one of your goals is to accumulate money, say, for your old age or to buy private health insurance. As long as you understand that you can't spend your way to wealth -- driving a flashy car doesn't prove that you're rich, it demonstrates that you were rich once -- you're sufficiently balanced.
 * Still, I'm left with two open issues (I work in the financial services industry, in case it's not obvious...):
 * Shouldn't you be more concerned with spending less each day than you earn, rather than your parents?
 * Do you have some reason to feel "financially insecure", such that you feel the need to prove to your peers that you can spend as much as you like?
 * It wouldn't hurt to stop and re-evaluate your priorities every few years and make sure that spending it is still as important to you as it once was! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not about value for money - it's about supply and demand. You can pack an enormous number of people into a theatre to watch a movie - there are multiple movie theatres in every town - the supply is huge. Most large towns (in the US at least) probably have a go-kart track - and there are a handful of karts available at any time - but the supply is WAY lower than the number of seats in a movie theatre. Indoor skydiving requires dedicated access by a couple of people only to a horribly expensive machine of which there are perhaps only a few hundred in the entire world. The supply is tiny! Now look at the demand: Flying in the indoor skydiver is the thrill of a lifetime for many people - there is a significant demand - but very little supply - so the cost is high. Zipping around a go-kart track is pretty exciting too - quite a few people would like to do it - but the supply is still fairly limited - so it's cheaper than skydiving but more costly than the movies. Seeing a movie is reasonably interesting - but you could probably see almost the same thing at home on TV or on a DVD for $15 - so it's not a hugely high demand - and the supply is vast - so the prices are way, way, low. That explains why they cost radically different amounts. I'd bet that a minute in a skydiving simulator would be WAY more worth-while than two hours in a movie theater or 20 minutes on a go-kart track - so probably people ARE getting value for money. Economics 101 says that if people aren't getting value for money from non-essential activities then they'll stop doing them and either the price will drop. If the operating expenses are too high to allow the price to drop then the company will go out of business. Since skydiving simulators and go-kart tracks exist - the prices must still be high enough to make a profit - which means that demand is at least keeping pace with supply. SteveBaker (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Bicentenial certificates of U.S citizenship
Greetings:

The subject of my request is to find out information and at the same time advise you that there is something missing from your article.

1). I am doing research regarding a legal matter, the issue Bicentennial; whether Bicentennial can be used as in nunc pro tunc and or retroactively?

2). That your article regarding (Bicentennial) fails to indicate that the U.S congress approved Bicentennial certificates of U.S citizenship in the year 1996 and that said certificates were issued during that year by the United States District Courts.

3). Whether a Bicentennial Certificate of Citizenship has some special quality in a common and legal application and value.

I respectfully submit that this is an important issue, because people have the right to known about that information.

If my request has been helpful please be so kind as to inform me. Likewise, if you are able to help me in my quest for justice please do so and in form me accordingly.

Thank you for your time and consideration as to in this matter,

Respectfully Submitted, BY: Francesco Franco Zambuto  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.23.167.198 (talk) 20:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not know which article you are referring to (you have not linked to one, and a search for 'bicentennial certificate of citizenship' gives no relevant results), but if you think an article can be improved, please either edit it yourself (if you can cite reliable sources for the information you are adding), or raise the issue on the article's Talk page.
 * As to the other part of your question, you begin by asking for information, but later refer to your 'quest for justice'. Please be aware that though we on the Reference Desks can offer information, and point you at sources, we cannot give legal advice. (I am not in the US, so I have no idea about this subject anyway). --ColinFine (talk) 23:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would say, however, that in the United States, if you're a citizen, you're a citizen. You may have been born here (in which case you can become president), you may have been naturalized (in which case the document is a certificate of naturalization), or you may have acquired citizenship through a process other than naturalization (e.g., the minor immigrant child of immigrant parents who become naturalized derives citizenship through those parents), in which case you have a certificate of citizenship.  Other that personal pride, there is no special status to having become a citizen at one time vis-a-vis another, any more than there is by having your oath of citizenship taken by a justice of the Supreme Court rather than an attorney at the former Immigration and Naturalization Service.  --- OtherDave (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would Congress approve "Bicentennial certificates of U.S citizenship in the year 1996"? The U.S. bicentennial was 1976. —D. Monack talk 21:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't suppose Congress is immune to typos. :P —Tamfang (talk) 17:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

hearing standards for various jobs
Hello everyone,

I’m not asking for medical advice … I’m not asking for medical advice. Now that we’ve got that out of the way:

I’m seeking a career in law enforcement. With the agency I’ve applied for, I’ve completed all of the prerequisite testing: background investigation, polygraph test, written exams, physical fitness test, interview, etc. The last and final stage is the medical/physical exam.

I have slight conductive hearing loss in my left ear, and as a result I do not meet the hearing standards per the Department’s policy.

I’m trying to find various hearing employment standards for other organizations (i.e. LE agencies, DOT, etc, etc, etc) to see if I meet those standards. For example, per the US Military’s enlistment standards (US Army Publication 40-501), I DO meet the hearing standards for military service. My goal is to present all of the jobs that my hearing qualifies me for to the agency I’m applying with.

For example, I do meet the hearing enlistment standards for the US military, so I would say something like “the hearing in my left ear is good enough for the US military, can we use the military enlistment standard instead of your agency’s standard?”

The more times I can say this sentence with X organization, I feel the greater likelihood that I’ll get some sort of waver for my left ear.

Any suggestions?

Thanks! Rangermike (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A letter on a law firm's letterhead with the word "discrimination" on it can do wonders if the agency doesn't have it's own full-time legal defense. :) 24.68.54.155 (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A rambling story before I get to the point. Several years ago I took an 8 week course and one of the requirements was eyesight and in particular Color blindness. One of the other participants was red/green colour blind but they allowed him to take the training if by the end he could find another doctor to certify that he wasn't colour blind. He was able to do that but failed anyway. His color blindness was such that he couldn't tell the difference between the red/green lights and kept pressing the wrong buttons.


 * The point here being, that you may need to look at the training involved and decide if there is any part of it based on hearing that you might not be able to pass. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Aren't those tests for "Uncorrected" hearing loss? Meaning that if you can get a hearing aid that fixes the problem, you can do the test while wearing the hearing aid?  If it's only a slight loss - it should be easily correctable. SteveBaker (talk) 13:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean "corrected"? Your hearing, when corrected, has to be above a certain level. I know eye tests for jobs are usually corrected vision, meaning you can wear your glasses or contact lenses (fighter pilot may be an exception). --Tango (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)