Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 April 5

= April 5 =

Most Prestigious Oxford College
What is the most prestigious constituent college of Oxford University - the Oxford equivalent of Cambridge's Trinity College? Acceptable (talk) 00:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See Norrington Table --199.198.223.106 (talk) 01:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Christ Church is hands down the most respected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clashbash (talk • contribs) 05:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hands up if you agree. --Dweller (talk) 09:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well obviously respected is not the same thing as prestigious (respected by whom?). Also it depends what you mean by prestigious.  If you mean academically, you would have to go by the Norrington table as linked to above.  But Christ Church certainly has more aristocratic Brideshead-y cachet than any other college.  --Richardrj talkemail 09:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  09:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There isn't one. Christ Church was historically the most socially prestigious, and perhaps still is (though given the contempt for privilege commonplace among modern Britons, including Oxford students, that doesn't count for much any more), but that's quite different from the role of Trinity at Cambridge. The Norrington Table should not be taken very seriously at all. It is only a reflection of current undergraduate performance (and of very limited value even as that), whereas intellectual prestige is built up over centuries and determined primarily by the stature of a college's fellows. Another candidate for the most prestigious Oxford College is All Souls, but as a graduate only institution specialising in the humanities it is nothing like Trinity. Luwilt (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Disclosure: I'm an Oxford graduate, but not from any of the colleges mentioned. Luwilt (talk) 12:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

When was the sandwich invented?
When was the sandwich invented? Not the term "sandwich" itself, but the actual food item. - Vikramkr (talk) 06:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Popular myth has it that it was invented by John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich; the article has a section called "The Sandwich", which mentions an alternate candidate for the creator. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But he just introduced it to high society. Poor people had been eating sandwiches for centuries if not millennia at that point. (sadly, I don't seem to still have the report I wrote in college on this topic, or I'd fork over the references. Sorry.) If I recall, the jist of it was that throughout history, almost at any point where people had the right sort of bread, the peasant or working class would come up with a way to use it to hold an entire meal together. APL (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I have read this, although I find it hard to believe that a simple food item such as a sandwich came to existence in the 1700's. - Vikramkr (talk) 06:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just like America being "discovered" by some Viking (despite the natives) and Machu Picchu being discovered by Hiram Bingham, whoever claims the honor first (usually) gets the credit. This says the earl copied the idea from the Greeks and Turks, and that it is "a culinary practice of ancient origins", i.e. nobody knows. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's so obvious to place something on bread and fold it over, I imagine it was invented within a short time after the first use of bread; probably around 10,000 BCE.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The English form of sandwich does not involve folding the bread. Luwilt (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've always thought it odd that Cornish pasties have been around since at least the 13th century, yet it took four hundred more years for someone to try essentially the same thing with bread. A fanciful tale of invention to be sure, but hardly unique. Matt Deres (talk) 00:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Hillel was eating sandwiches 2000 years ago - something that will be remembered and imitated by millions of Jews worldwide this very week. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Remember also that matzo in Hillel's time was much lss crumbly than ours and much easier to fold over. Phil_burnstein (talk) 00:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He ate a wrap, not a sandwich. Luwilt (talk) 12:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

height of territories?
Hey, I'm just curious, how high does a countries airspace territory go? I mean, we have satellites that orbit above countries, so presumably that isn't forbidden, but flying a russian jet flying over the US would almost certainly be considered a hostile act. Is there a certain height limit to which a county can claim to own? Cyclonenim : Chat  11:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Our article Airspace states "There is no international agreement on the vertical extent of sovereign airspace" but then mentions ranges from 30km to 160km. ny156uk (talk) 11:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There are international treaties dealing with high atmosphere / use of space. See Outer Space Treaty, also the proposed Space Preservation Treaty, and generally, Space law. Civilian use of another country's air space is by permission of that nation only; see, for example, Convention on International Civil Aviation, International Civil Aviation Organization, and more generally, freedoms of the air. Generally, most countries do not allow foreign space aircrafts to use their airspaces for non-civilian purposes, but see Treaty on Open Skies.
 * As to how far a country's sovereignty goes: theoretically, it goes on forever, at least under the Anglophone common law system and the Roman-derived civil law system, as a consequence of "cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos". Practically, it goes only to the limits of the atmosphere, or usable atmosphere - but definitions of what is that limit varies. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This question reminds me of a story from before most of those treaties. In The Man Who Sold the Moon, the main character successfully asserts that as property rights extend to infinity above a land parcel, only those countries in a narrow band north and south of the equator may lay claim to Earth's moon.  Of course, taken to the next logical step, those countries would also collectively own all the planets in the solar system, but that wasn't touched on in the story.  152.16.16.75 (talk) 00:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The state of Illinois recently passed a law re-designating Pluto a planet while it is overhead Illinois, so in their minds at least their jurisdiction extends 7 billion kilometers. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * One might say that the state of Illinois is simply out of its depth. :) 87.115.166.150 (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Those legislators should be sacked (and then burnt at the stake) for wasting the public's money on such utter absurdities.  One might have thought that they'd have quite a few more pressing issues than this, particularly at the present time in history.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * IIRC certainn countries near the Equator did try to claim that their sovereignty went all the way up, in an attempt to get rent from geostationary satellites. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That would be the 1976 Bogotá Declaration mentioned at Extraterrestrial real estate. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 01:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

How to gain weight ?
TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see the discussion of whether this is medical advice here: Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous. StuRat (talk) 19:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

crazy electronics kit catalog
When I was a kid (1980s) I had this crazy catalog of electronic kits you could order. It included some things that in retrospect I'm pretty dubious about — your own laser interferometer microphone (which my reading of the Wikipedia page on such makes it sound like that is quite a complicated thing to set up!), all sorts of bugging equipment, all sorts of weird "make a machine that sends out rays that makes people uncomfortable" sorts of things. As a kid I thought it was the coolest catalog ever, even though I was well aware the prices were beyond me and there was no way I'd be able to assemble anything in it myself. My question is: does this ring any bells? Anybody have the slightest clue what this catalog was? Who put it out? I'd find it such a kick to see it again, I read it cover to cover a million times. But I can't remember too many details other than the above. Thought it would be worth asking about, though. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I read something like that once. Try <(^_^)> Pokegeek42 (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

If that's not it, maybe try asking this on the science desk? Just 'cause, they might read more science catalogs than I do. I'm really not sure. <(^_^)> Pokegeek42 (talk) 18:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Heathkit comes to mind (see here for some catalog covers), but I'm not sure how far they were into the crazy and weird category. Perhaps some other company in the Electronic kit manufacturers category may ring a bell.  -- Tcncv (talk) 04:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I remember that catalog! Wow, that was a long time ago.  That was also one of my favorite catalogs as a kid.  Some of the items (Tesla coils, infinity transmitters, etc.) were legitimate but it also had 'questionable' plans and kits that seemed really cool to me when I was too young to understand the science behind them.  Similar to Consumertronics but with slightly more plausible concepts.  The kits were usually based at least somewhat loosely on real research, but the small scale of the finished products would likely have been too weak to accomplish much of anything.  Now, what was the name of that catalog?  152.16.16.75 (talk) 09:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, tesla coils! That sounds like the right one. Everything in there was wild and crazy and no doubt sounded about 50 X cooler in there than it would have been to actually make. It was printed on cheap paper, lots of tiny tiny text blurbs crammed onto each page. Most things sold in kit form. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 10:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This sounds like the stuff at the back of the Superman comics, or the back of MAD magazine? --TammyMoet (talk) 11:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Mad Magazine didn't run advertisements until very recently. APL (talk) 12:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And this was a full catalog. And in color? A short little booklet. Stand-alone. The pure stuff of adolescent geek fantasies. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Edmund Scientific. Still there. I got the catalog when I was a kid in the early 1960's. -Arch dude (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I fondly remember the RadioShack kits from Tandy, but the ones I saw achieved mundane tasks well rather than attempting exotic pseudo-science. Certes (talk) 21:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Very cheap watch
Does anyone know of a high-street store in Britain where one could get hold of a very cheap watch (preferably one like this or this, without a strap, but other types also acceptable) in the £3-8 range? Cheers! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 20:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Argos okay? £5.89MedicRoo (talk) 21:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Beware cheap watches, they are run by a fly on a bicycle.--88.109.57.209 (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ask a nurse. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  09:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Ooh, I think Argos looks good, thanks! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 09:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't buy that one, it's upside down. :)  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that was a pretty stupid mistake by the photographer, all the more expensive ones are pictured properly ;-)
 * Anyway, I now have it, works very nicely (was even set at precisely the right time when I bought it, battery and everything!) and if anyone's interested, it's a thoroughly good deal :p Thanks for the help! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 21:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)