Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 December 3

= December 3 =

Create a new entry from existing information
How can I create a new post for a company? It is currently listed under another one--see Ares Management under Apollo Management: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Management http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Management#Ares_ManagementRhondapitman (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You can create the article at Ares Management. But you should probably check WP:CORP to see if Ares is notable enough on its own for a separate article.  Currently, Ares Management redirects to Apollo Management.  Additionally, questions about the inner workings of Wikipedia are normally handled at the Help Desk.  This page is for general knowledge questions about things other than Wikipedia.  Dismas |(talk) 00:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Note too that if you are connected to the company in some way you will have to be careful about your involvement in creating the article (see WP:COI). Grutness...wha?  00:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Scarves on men in UK
Someone I know is working in Leicester, and he says that no men wear scarves. However, on Doctor Who and Law & Order UK, the actors wear scarves! Admittedly, they are television shows and are filmed in other parts of the country, but are the wardrobe departments that out of sync with fashion, or is the person I know wrong?
 * It might be just a Leicester thing cos there were plenty on show in Birmingham yesterday. Of course, as the winter progresses, scarves may well make an appearance 35 miles north of Birmingham... --TammyMoet (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Clearly there are men in Leicester that wear scarfs. They are a standard thing to wear when the weather is cold. I would suggest your friend is perhaps suggesting that 'real men' don't wear scarfs? You do have people that have this idea that somehow feeling the cold is un-manly (usually numpties who see any form of 'feminimity' as making you less of a man). 12:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with the above. Sounds like an expression of preferential opinion, rather than fact. --Dweller (talk) 12:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * No true Scotsman wears a scarf ! Gandalf61 (talk) 12:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, they just wear skirts. "Donald! Where's yer trousers???" :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's "troosers" not "trousers" Caesar&#39;s Daddy (talk) 16:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, lad. Ah was trrranslatin' frrrom the Scottish. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As an ex-City worker whose industrial workwear was a two piece suit; you find a gap between collar & tie and the V of your suit jacket and/or formal coat which is protected only by your shirt. A scarf fills the void very nicely on those cold winter mornings and they are very commonly seen in the Square Mile. Posher types go for silk, often with a paisley print but I had a nice red lambs wool number that had better insulation properties. Of course, north of the border they all go about dressed like Scotts Porridge Oats man and have no need of such soft southern luxuries. Alansplodge (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * ...while some of us prefer a buff...--Shantavira|feed me 15:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You talk about "buff" to men in Leicester, and they'll think you fancy them, want to polish them, want them naked, or that you like a particularly dull shade of grey. Take your chances... wisely. --Dweller (talk) 16:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha - in the British Army, this is called a "cap comforter" and has been issued since 1900. Before I looked at the link, I thought you meant you were so hard, you went out "in the buff" - ie naked. Apparently the Ancient Britons went into combat with nothing on exept a dollop of woad. No wonder they lost to the Romans. Bet they were surprised though. Alansplodge (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably worked out better in chilly winter since the Romans would have been rolling on the ground laughing at their enemies Googlemeister (talk) 20:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Um - In the interests of nationalistic pride - I should point out that the Romans were defeated by the British "barbarians" around 400 AD. It's not clear whether woad and excessive nudity - nor yet scarves had much to do with it though. SteveBaker (talk) 02:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I asked someone else to question the person, and it turns out he was lying to me because he didn't want me to make a scarf. (I'm currently going on a knitting craze.) Thanks for all the answers! (and jokes.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.241 (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

teacher-student love
my friend just fell in love with his teacher!! he constantly talks about her, even though i tell him to shut up, he blabbers on about her hair and her eyes, and.... whatever else! i just wanted to know, this situation involving a student falling in love with his/her teacher, or vice versa, or both falling in love with each other, is it common around the world, in any country or city, or school??

thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.131.203 (talk) 13:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It's What I Go to School For. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You could say he is Hot for Teacher Livewireo (talk) 14:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * HO HO HO lets have some more jokes, that's what the reference desk is for. btw remember to use tags for your jokes, otherwise they might detract from the usefulness of the ref desk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.55.75 (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok grumpypants. TastyCakes (talk) 17:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.55.75 (talk) 18:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Students developing a crush on their teacher is fairly common - our article puppy love mentions it (full-blown love is slightly different and difficult to define). The other way round is probably less common, although it is difficult to know since it is taboo (and illegal if acted on) in most modern societies so most teachers would suppress such feelings if they had them. --Tango (talk) 14:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of students with have a crush on an attractive (even an unattractive) teacher, and teachers will often have crushes on students. But as for love, that's more uncommon and would usually result from lots of intimate between student / teacher, like a student attending after school classes or one on one tutoring. Most liekly your friend is just crushing on her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.55.75 (talk) 16:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It didn't work out too well for Pamela Smart and Billy Flynn, or that teacher from the Pacific Northwest who had two children in jail with her teenaged student. Or just about anyone else.  Being attracted to older women/men is normal for teenagers.  Acting on said attraction works out poorly vanishingly close to 100% of the time.  If you are looking for some fictional accounts of these relationships; they play a key part of the book Lolita (from the opposite sex side as your friends situation) and the song "Don't Stand So Close to Me".  -- Jayron  32  19:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * A quick Google search didn't turn up the woman who Jayron is referring to even though I know who he's talking about.... Anyway, this page has some interesting (read: amusing) reading.  Dismas |(talk) 20:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Found her! Mary Kay Letourneau.  Dismas |(talk) 20:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That's her. I always remember Pamela Smart because I was in New Hampshire, in High School when that went down, and I was the exact same age as Billy Flynn, AND, I hate to say it, we looked quite alike, so kids used to rag on me for it.  But yeah, the reason I had a hard time finding Latourneau's name is when I typed "Teacher student sex Washington state" I got, like, 100 unrelated articles just from the past year on different cases of teacher-student inappropriate relationships.  It was sort of a low-point on my "faith in humanity" scale.  Kinda depressing when you see how often this shit goes down.  As a teacher, I have personally worked with no less than half a dozen teachers who have been disgraced for these sorts of problems.  It really disgusts you when you start to think about it.  Which is why I don't.  -- Jayron  32  21:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Moving things up a bracket. I think having attractions (even fantasies) between college students and young profs and/or grad student instructors is pretty common in both directions, i.e. both students fantasizing about teacher and teacher fantasizing about a student. Even so, boundary crossing relationships are still quite rare. I assume acting on such fantasies are considered inappropriate for all college level instructors, and depending on the local laws may qualify as sexual harassment or similar. However, it would not qualify as statutory rape, as most high school student relationships would. And once the student-teacher interaction ends, consenting adults could act on their feelings more freely. I knew a college student who went back and dated her grad student TA six months after the class had ended. Dragons flight (talk) 21:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that, even if not actually against the law, such types of sexual relationships, where there is an "assymetric power relationship" between the participants (boss-employee, professor-student, officer-enlisted) are almost universally banned by just about every organization in the world. In almost every case, though not illegal, engaging in such relationships will likely get you fired faster than you can say "assymetric power relationship".  (as a totally personal aside, I had a lab class in college where one of my fellow students was sleeping with the TA.  He didn't grade anything, and gave us all "A's", because he didn't want to grade the work of the girl he was sleeping with.  When the department noticed the anomaly, the relationship came out, he got thrown out of school, and there was talk of forcing us to take the class over again.  Ultimately, our grades stood, but it only goes to show how such behavior can cause drastic consequences for MANY people, most of whom are uninvolved.  I also had a boss who was sleeping with an employee, and it completely ruined morale at the place I was working; what had been a great place to work decended into an aweful one pretty quickly.  There are many social and monetary consequences for doing this sort of stuff.  Moral is: don't do it.  There are lots of ways to get your jollies off; try to do it in a way that doesn't mess up the lives of the people involved, and the lives of those nearby as well) -- Jayron  32  22:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I once worked somewhere where a boss and a recently hired employee realized that they were mutually interested in each other. They hadn't acted on it (to the best of my knowledge), but the employee decided to quit so she could then date the boss.  I can't imagine that all that many people would be willing to go that far, but it worked out well for them.  And it made the boss happier, which worked out well for the rest of us.  Dragons flight (talk) 22:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That's about the only way it can work; as long as the participants voluntarily remove the conflict of interest (for example, students may date a professor after the student has their degree, or the situation you describe). However, few people often have the foresight to do that; they usually naively assume that they can make it work out, and who should be hurt if two consenting adults do whatever in private.  However, in assymetric relationships, one party cannot properly give consent (what happens to the underling if the relationship goes south?  How can one be coequal in bed, but subordinate in work) and it is also unfair to other employees (one underling gets a priviliged status because they are fucking the boss/professor/whatever).  Its great your friends made it work the right way, but sadly few do.  -- Jayron  32  02:13, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * With students, anyway, at some point the student ceases to be a student (especially when one is talking about TFs in college and etc.), which rectifies most of the immediate problem. It is not that uncommon for professors to be married to former students, in my experience in the university system. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

cost of hondoras mahogony in dollars per board foot
what is an average cost to the consumer for hondoras mahogany in dollars per board foot in 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.224.108.129 (talk) 13:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know the average, but this site -- aimed at US customers -- has prices ranging from 12-40 $USD per board foot. It might be quite a bit cheaper in the country of origin, although things don't always work that way.  Note for your searches that it's spelled "Honduras".  --Sean 15:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Michaele Holt Salahi
Is Michaele Salahi, nee Holt, really a model? Due to many of the other debugged claims about this couple, one wonders if the claim that she was a model in many fashion magazines must be taken with a grain of salt. I've found pictures of her prior to her marriage at several Washington, DC-area social events, but she's never identified other than by name, it's just assumed that people viewing the photos would know who she is. Interestingly, http://shoporeum.com/Beauty-2/bridal+services+makeup.html lists her as a Nationally recognized Model and Make Up Artist, and I've found a reference to a Michaele Holt as a makeup artist for one TV movie, Lady Bird, but her name doesn't show up at imdb. And the link on that page to her website no longer works. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * SO, what you are asking is "Should we believe the claims of a woman and her husband who have made a career out of overinflating claims about themselves and their businesses." Answer for yourself... -- Jayron  32  21:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Conceded, but what I really was asking was, is there any independent proof that she was really a model in major magazines, such as Vogue, as she claims? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, the way to check is to use the Fashion Model Directory. It is basically to the modeling world what IMDB is to movies and allmusic.com is to music.  -- Jayron  32  19:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Cigars anyone ?
What is world's heaviest cigar ? And exactly how much does it weigh ?

Jon Ascton   (talk)  18:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This is the best I can find, from the Guinness World Records Site. It is actually the longest ever, but they beat their own record, so I suspect they are so far ahead it's also the heaviest. As for the weight that's harder. It mentions they bought 140lb of tobacco for it, but that doesn't include the glue and outside bits. Prokhorovka (talk) 20:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Nazi goreng
I came across this web page. Now never mind the faulty logic ("nasi goreng is evil because the Nazis ate it" - you could just as well say water is evil because there must have been quite a few Nazis who regularly drank water), the name of the dish comes from Indonesian and/or Malay for "fried rice", and the similarity to Nazi, short for German Nationalsozialismus, is pure coincidence. But did the Nazis even ever eat any nasi goreng, or would they have? J I P | Talk 19:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Were there any who were in Indonesia? I would expect that there was one or more at some point who ate the dish, but this is one of those things that one is rather unlikely to ever find proof for, one way or another.  Googlemeister (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It was not totally unknown to those outside of Indonesia at that time (Robert Oppenheimer served nasi goreng to guests in Berkeley in the 1920s, if I recall—they called it "nasty gory" and didn't care for it—and had probably learned it from someone he knew who had lived in Indonesia), but I doubt it was any more well-known then than it is now. But it seems like rather a stretch to wonder if any Nazis (however one is going to define that group for these purposes) ever ate a particular dish, especially one that is pretty simple (it's just fried rice with things in it, yes?). --Mr.98 (talk) 20:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the poster who assumed the Nazis ate the stuff is clue-challenged. I'd speculate that she doesn't have much experience with languages.
 * I remember coming across the Italian word nazireato in a dictionary. Now nazi means the same thing in Italian as it does in English, and reato means crime.  But a nazireato is completely different &mdash; it's a sort of Biblical oath.  I think it's cognate with the word Nazarene but I'm not certain of that. --Trovatore (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, no, not Nazarene I guess. Here's the en.wiki article:  Nazirite. --Trovatore (talk) 23:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For clarification as mentioned in our article, nasi simply means rice in Malay and Indonesian (and possibly a few related languages) so you can have all sorts of other nasi dishes, e.g. nasi lemak, nasi kandar, nasi dagang, nasi kerabu, nasi briyani, nasi ayam, nasi tomato , nasi berlauk, nasi campur, nasi liwet, nasi pecel, nasi paprik, nasi kuning etc. Most Malaysians and Indonesians eat nasi all the time. So if the Nazi's ever ate rice, and I'm guessing some did, then they ate nasi and I guess rice is evil for that reason. Similarly, while it may be normal to associate nasi goreng with Malay or Indonesia style fried rice in English, any kind of fried rice can and is legitimately called nasi goreng in Malay and Indonesian. It seems easily possible some Nazi may have had some kind of fried rice. While this didn't seem to come up in that forum post, whether Hermann Göring ever had nazi goreng is obviously a more specific question and a lot less likely. It may be nasi goreng something, just as you may have Chinese fried rice etc in English, e.g. nasi goreng kampung , nasi goreng istimewa, nasi goreng pattaya, nasi goreng Cina, nasi goreng yang chow, nasi goreng USA so if they'd ever had any form of fried rice then they did eat nasi goreng, Incidentally as also mentioned in our article or you may have guessed, goreng just means fried (for example, there is mi goreng, pisang goreng, ayam goreng) and I'm sure some victims of the holocaust would have been happy to see some Nazi goreng. P.S. It also occured to me that if someone named a rice dish after Hitler i.e. that would be called Hitler's rice in English (not sure what in German) it should be translated in Malay and Indonesian (I think, my Malay is a bit scratchy and I don't know Indonesian) as nasi Hitler. This sounds possible but I'm not sure how it would have been received in Nazi Germany, perhaps it would have been seen as offensive Nil Einne (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As the recipe poster hints, Indonesian food is known in the Netherlands due to its status as the former colonial power. Since the Nazis invaded the Netherlands, it's entirely possible[conclusion leap?] that some would have eaten Indonesian food while there. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In our household we jokingly call it "Nazi Göring", but I'd never imagined anyone would take such a phonetic similarity seriously. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Husband and wife as politicians on opposite sides
There are several well known instances of a husband and wife holding office for the same political party. But are there any examples of a married couple holding office for opposing parties? --Richardrj talkemail 20:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Not office holders, but Mary Matalin, a longtime Republican strategist, is married to James Carville, a longtime Democratic strategist. She was the deputy campaign manager for George H.W. Bush's 1992 reelection bid, while Carville was Bill Clinton's campaign manager.  So you have an election where the campaigns of the opponents were being run by a couple.  -- Jayron  32  20:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If First Lady of California is an office I believe that Maria Schriver is a Democrat and Arnold is Republican. Googlemeister (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Those two pairs of opposites are almost like a mixed-faith marriage. The success of their marriages has to do with things that can transcend politics - namely, love of family and family life. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think Arnold and Maria are necessarily that far apart. Arnold has been called a RINO, and his wife is no bomb thrower from anything I've ever heard.
 * When I lived in Texas, there was an event where the Texas GOP invited Arnold to speak to raise money for (IIRC) his '06 re-election campaign in California. I thought it was, to say the least, unusual, given that Arnold would clearly have been a Democrat in Texas.  Texas Republicans would have crucified him if he'd tried to run there.  But apparently he was OK for California. --Trovatore (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There are of course plenty of marriages where the political beliefs of the partners are fairly different. A better comparison to the question might be some combination of a imam, rabbi and Christian minister, priest or preacher. Obviously not possible with those that are expected to remain celibate. And this isn't perfect since the reason people join political parties varies and may not be simply because their political views fit that of their party best and political biews within a party usually vary quite significantly (while the views of various religious leaders vary, their are specific things which seperate different religions) Nil Einne (talk) 05:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I read that the current Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow, who is a Conservative MP, has a wife who wants to be a Labour MP. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking, he was a Conservative MP. Speakers give up all party connections when they become Speaker. --Tango (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Peter MacKay and Belinda Stronach were dating when they were in the same party. She then crossed the floor, but they broke up pretty much immediately. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The husband of Gro Harlem Brundtland (prime minister for the social-democrat party Arbeiderpartiet), Arne Olav Brundtland was a member of the conservative party (Høyre) at the time they married. I'm not aware that he held any important positions in that party, however. I also vaguely member reading that he many years later changed sides, but I was unable to find a source for that statement, and am not sure if it is correct. --NorwegianBluetalk 21:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In the Scottish Parliament, Rob Gibson MSP sat alongside his wife Dr Eleanor Scott in the 2003-07 term; he was elected for the Scottish National Party while she is a member of the Scottish Green Party. In the House of Lords, Lord Howe of Aberavon was enobled in 1992 and took his seat as a Conservative; in 2001 he was joined by his wife, Baroness Howe of Idlicote who sits as a Crossbencher. Also, although not a husband and wife relationship, note that Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin (Conservative) was joined in the House of Commons in 1929-31 by his son Oliver Baldwin who was in the Labour Party. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Caroline Jackson was a Conservative MEP until 2009. Her husband, Robert V. Jackson, was a Conservative MP, but defected to Labour in 2005.  Hilton Philipson was a National Liberal MP in the 1920s.  Following his death, his wife, Mabel Philipson, was elected in the same seat as a Conservative MP - but the two parties were in an alliance at the time. Warofdreams talk 21:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually Hilton Philipson didn't die, he had his election declared void because his election agent had corruptly lowered his election expenses in order to get them below the limit. The circumstances are explained in Berwick-upon-Tweed by-election, 1923, now I wonder who wrote that. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In the National Assembly of Quebec, MPP and Deputy Prime Minister Nathalie Normandeau, a Liberal, was recently dating François Bonnardel, a member of the opposition ADQ. --Xuxl (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Although not married Gareth Evans (Labor) and Cheryl Kernot (Australian Democrats) had an affair. There were not necessarily on opposite sides, though, as the Democrats are (were) a minor party. Steewi (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Agriculture
Do any other species besides Homo sapiens engage in agriculture ? Jon Ascton   (talk)  22:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Some species of ants are known to keep aphids around and milk them. I can't remember the species of ant or aphid involved, but this would fall under just about any definition of "agriculture".  Perhaps some entomologist who patrols here can remember more of the details.  -- Jayron  32  22:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Not the ones I was thinking of, but Leafcutter ants use leaves to grow fungus, and harvest the fungus for food, also a type of agriculture. -- Jayron  32  22:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As regards the aphid thing, I'm not an entymologist, but bog-standard British black ants do this with bog-standard British greenfly on the sycamore tree just outside the door in the summer. Alansplodge (talk) 00:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Limpets "farm" algae (the technical term is "gardening"). Robinh (talk) 08:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Honeypot ants do something like ranching, and the article has a wonderful picture. You'll really have to pin down what counts as "agriculture".  Birds and bugs spread seeds far and wide, and later benefit from doing so, but that's not what I would call agriculture.  --Sean 15:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)