Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 May 1

= May 1 =

Off-site Wikipedia Rules
What policies and guidelines do we have about things we do off-site related to Wikipedia. I am aware that policy against canvassing for meat puppets. Are there any other things that we need to be aware of? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the wrong place to post this - for questions about Wikipedia itself you need the WP:HELPDESK. Exxolon (talk) 01:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I asked my question there. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Translate "canvassing for meat puppets"? (This is not a policy question, it's a request for miscellaneous knowledge) —Tamfang (talk) 05:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Meat puppets is a Wikipedia expression for other people who you bring to Wikipedia for the sole purpose of making it seem that your proposal / position has more support amongst Wikipedia users than it really does. "Canvassing for meat puppets" means going out and recruiting people, telling them to sign on to Wikipedia just to leave a comment in support of your proposal / position. Take a look at Sock puppetry. &mdash; QuantumEleven 08:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Where to redirect junk mail
I'm filling out online offers for prizes and I need a non-fake address to send my junk mail to, and of course I don't want to annoy some random person. Is there an address I can put down to have it all recycled or something? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.49.100 (talk) 06:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure, but Guerrilla Mail sounds like what you're looking for. Or you could just create a free webmail account with Gmail or Hotmail or something just for this purpose and just forget about it and never check it. -Elmer Clark (talk) 07:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Since one does not usually recycle junk emails, I expect the OP is talking about junk snail mail. --Tango (talk) 08:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What I used to do is redirect them to eachother's addresses, or if they come with post paid envelopes put the documents (not filled in) in the wrong envelope. I don't bother since someone told me about the [mail preference service]. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How will you get the prizes if you've given them a false address? --Tango (talk) 08:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You could add "Please do not rent or sell my name" or "No mailing lists" next to your name. That's what Center for a New American Dream recommend here. See also opting out. ---Sluzzelin talk  13:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

History question
I do remember there was a battle(earlier then 20th century) where winning side was overwhelmed by more then 10 to one numbers of enemies. I don't remember who was fighting, but probably Britons in India or Africa. I do remember that advantage of loosing side in terms of artillery was less then 10 to one, more likely 3 to 1. And, I fail to Google it(tried very hard). Anyone by any chance could point me in a right direction? Vitall (talk) 06:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Rorke's Drift? Rmhermen (talk) 07:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! But unfortunately no. There was thousands AFAIR on each side, plus both sides had an artillery... Plus I'm not sure about Britons part (could be some other nation, or local conflict), but could be them. Vitall (talk) 07:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Rorke's Drift was defended in the Zulu Wars by British (Welsh) troops who were outnumbered hundreds to one. Neither side had artillery.90.0.6.247 (talk) 09:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)DT


 * I think the OP means that he's looking for a battle where even the smaller side had thousands and both sides had artillery. But it was worded ambiguously. --Dweller (talk) 09:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah exactly. Thank you. Rmhermen just below have answered my question, but thank you anyway. Vitall (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Not what you are looking for, but if you just need an example of a very one-sided battle for something then the North Front in the Yom Kippur War saw the Syrians advance on the Israelis with a 10/1 tank advantage, within 48 hours the Israelis were pushing them back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.155.146 (talk) 10:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How about Battle of Plassey? Although it appears that most of the Indian forces never engaged the British the strengths are about 3000 for the British and 50,000 for the Indians, both sides having cannon. Another of Clive of India's battles, the fall of Calcutta would also fit. Or perhaps Battle of Omdurman in Sudan although it doen't look the the locals had cannon. Rmhermen (talk) 15:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * YEAH! Thank you! Battle of Plassey was one I was looking for! Thank you very much! Vitall (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

My Dear - charming or patronising
Hi, Just want to ask your advice - particularly any women here - on the use of the phrase 'my dear' I often use this as a polite way of addressing women I don't know (eg thank you my dear). I think its more polite and better spoken than 'love' or the more regional 'hen' I hear a lot. But I'm not sure how its received - does it come across as polite and charming or just patronising and condesending? AllanHainey (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I think a lot depends upon your age and manner. Old and grandfatherly, possibly. Less than 70, not advised. 'Hen' is akin to 'love' or 'darling', acceptable as a general address by many women. But offensive to those who prefer Ms.90.0.6.247 (talk) 09:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)DT


 * Assuming the personal details on your userpage are true, if I overheard you calling a woman "my dear" I'd perceive it negatively. But a) I'm not a woman and b) a lot will depend on your tone and manner. --Dweller (talk) 09:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I know someone who uses this always for older women (over 60). Im not even sure he's aware he does it only towards them. But I CRINGE every time. I second what what the poerson above said. An older person has carte blanche to use it towards the much younger. Anyone else is going to offend or annoy some decent percentage of recipients some of the time.--70.19.69.27 (talk) 13:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Quentin Crisp, England's stateliest homo, could have got away with camp phrases at any age. Terms of endearment from men I don't know are not my cup of tea, but I would have taken it like a man had the words dropped from Quentin's colourful lips. One of the great advantages of being gay -- or theatrical -- is that you can get away with daring "darlings". If the phrase "my dear" came from a stranger or casual acquaintance who presents as I imagine you do, from your userpage (29, British accent, probably not camp as a row of Crisps), then I would shoot a sharp glance and think, "Did he actually say what I thought he said?" and minimise any future contact with you forthwith. Having got all that off my curvacious chest, I should say, YMMV -- what is acceptable varies by social group as much as by geography. And once more may I point out the wonders of the Language Desk, where they have Actual Professional Linguists who study, you know, language, and how people use it. I do commend the fact that you have written this question at all, though, instead of (as so many do) going through life assuming. Sorry if this is a bit long, but you did ask, my sweet. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * One of the great advantages of being gay -- or theatrical -- is that you can get away with daring "darlings". - I agree with the theatrical bit. Also true for flamboyantly gay people.  But not true for non-flamboyantly gay people.  There are a lot more of the latter than the former.  Being flamboyant or theatrical does not necessarily mean you're gay, although it often does.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that being theatrical does not mean being gay; that's why I said "or". (But nor would I wish to imply that one excludes the other.) I also know that there are a lot of unflamboyant gay men. (Let's leave Carol Ann Duffy and Rita Mae Brown out of the linguistic equation.) However, in my experience, even grey-suited gay accountants and civil servants can get away with a "darling" in circumstances when a straight man could not. Whether they choose to use the option is another matter, but it would be more socially acceptable for them to utter such a phrase. More acceptable -- not always, not completely, not in all situations. As for what degree of flamboyance an individual gay man may actually use, well, like most linguistic decisions, it can vary on the situation, see codeswitching. The Lavender linguistics article is fairly well referenced. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure I follow you. A lot of grey-suited accountants who happen to be gay do not make it generally known to their workplaces (or clients) that they are gay.  The default assumption, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, is that people are straight, and that's what they would prefer their colleagues etc to believe, otherwise they'd correct the record.  If such an apparently straight person suddenly started coming out with "darling" or whatever, it would be no more "acceptable" than if a truly straight person did it.  Only after other people got the message that this person is in fact gay, might they adjust their reaction.  But it's still an odd sort of discriminatory accommodation if this is their only "gay" behaviour.  It has shades of "it's ok if he does it, but not if you do it".  Tolerance of gay people is a good thing, but it shouldn't be at the expense of straight people.  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A grey-suited accountant who happened to be gay, and who had not told any of his colleagues that he was gay, might well choose not to "darling" at work, but he might "my dear" an acquaintance on the weekend. We all have access to a range of linguistic choices; some have a wider range open to them than others (e.g. bilingual people, also see Ebonics); this grey-gay guy can "darling" when he thinks it appropriate. And in the workplace there are many situations where a certain behaviour is OK for some but not others, by stated policy or social understanding (e.g. parents of young children declining to be rostered onto the evening shift).  But this is getting all too chatty and reference-free for this page; I would be happy to continue this discussion on my talkpage or another suitable place. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:48, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, to turn the question around... What is an acceptable, inoffensive term that could be used when addressing an anonymous female in this kind of context. For adult males, I believe that you can use "Sir". I am less certain about "Madam". An example context: You are carrying a large box out of a shop and an adult female holds the door open for you whilst a male shop assistance carries something else out with you. You could just say "Thank you", but here you want to identify the female as the specific recipient of _this_ set of thanks, so you say "Thank you my dear", "Thank you madam", "Thank you my lady", ...? Suggestions - possibly best from ladies - please. (I am interested from a UK perspective here.) -- SGBailey (talk) 17:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... at least in the United States, the usual thing would be "ma'am", I suppose. It's neither patronizing nor too formal, and would be appropriate for any woman. "Miss" would be all right for a younger woman (a teenager, perhaps). --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress ( extermination requests here ) 17:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd put up with dear in this case. Not "dearie" or "luv" or "ducky" or "hen". And not "my dear". I use that as a put down, generally over the phone to shut up the young erk who's interrupted my homelife to sell me double glazing!--TammyMoet (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * From a UK perspective, I would be rather startled to hear you addressing someone as 'Sir' if you were not a teenager addressing a teacher, and I can't think of any neutral general female term. I would strongly suggest that you avoid using any word here; rely on body language. If you want to indicate the thanks is to one particular person, nod at them when thanking them. Or make eye contact. There are people who can get away with 'miss', 'love', 'hen' etc, but you are not one of them :P Seriously, when certain people unconsciously use a word that is clearly part of their dialect, it is usually fine. You personally would be best advised to avoid using any such terms: at best you will sound sarcastic.
 * I'm aware these things vary strongly by region and group: I try to remember this and restrict the tooth-grinding when addressed as "Ma'am" every other sentence by Texan-accented Indians in call-centres. 80.41.85.182 (talk) 17:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm also from the UK, I would find addressing someone as 'Sir' correct only when there is a difference in social level in that situation - these days, that doesn't generally refer to "class" or anything like that, but rather your role in the relationship. A waiter would address a diner as 'Sir'. A shopkeeper might address a customer as 'Sir'. But addressing someone on the same level as you or lower than you on the current (and constantly changing as you go about your day) hierarchy would sound like an Americanism. The equivalent for women is difficult. 'Miss' is condescending and sometimes considered offensive (especially if you accidentally call a married woman 'Miss'). 'Madam' has connotations of the person being address thinking they are high up on the social ladder (either rightly or wrongly) - "Right little madam", for example. 'Ma'am' pronounced with a long 'a' refers only to the Queen (or someone else much higher than you on the social ladder - other royalty, a maid addressing the lady of the house, that kind of thing), pronounced with a short 'a' it is an Americanism. --Tango (talk) 20:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is a fair question. (Am I the only lady in the village today?) Americans use "sir" and "ma'am" easily and readily in many circumstances, whereas the British struggle. I wish American and British English differences included a discussion of this, but alas not. (Our articles are lacking: Forms of address in the United Kingdom covers only the upper echelons.) The first ghit for "terms of address" resulted in this BBC page, for people learning English. It lists many dialectal variants, but sadly skirts around the main issue. Another is for an etiquette column in The Times, which advises, "The English way is to blunderbuss through with ums and grunts, and no deployment of nomenclature." Shop assistants can say "madam" to any woman older than about 30, but to say "miss" to one younger can be problematic. It depends on one's own age as well.  Not easy! I would go with eye contact, so the person in question knows you intend her as the recipient of your thanks, and a "thank you" with genuine intonation. BrainyBabe (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, consensus seems to be no so I'll drop that phrase from my vocabulary. I wasn't aware it came across as camp though, possibly old fashioned but I am a bit archaic myself in my language use. AllanHainey (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I would consider "my dear" to be camp, "darling" is more so. Of course, it can certainly be used in a camp way, but it would be tone or voice and body language that made it camp, not the words. --Tango (talk) 20:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

mobile phone radiation is higher when battery is low?
Moved to Science Desk (link to question)

Dog thing
What is that thing around dog's neck? And what's it for? 89.146.64.179 (talk) 11:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's called a flea collar, but it's used to stop the animal scratching its head for whatever reason, eg it's just had stitches. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * According to our article, it's called Elizabethan collar (or space collar or cone). A flea collar is normally less obtrusive. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I always thought a flea collar was one of those regular collars that is impregnated with something to kill/repel fleas. --Tango (talk) 12:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's mentioned in the dog collar article, and insect collar is mentioned in the article on collar (animal). ---Sluzzelin talk  12:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's often called a satellite dish colloquially. When a dog, for example, gets stiches for a wound, it will worry at it, so it keeps them from getting to it.—70.19.69.27 (talk) 12:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, now I know :) 89.146.64.179 (talk) 12:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Where I live, the term lampshade is often used and always understood. "The dog had to wear a lampshade for a while."  Tempshill (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So long, lamp! —Grandpa. Mike R (talk) 20:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Lampshade is what I would call it, though I think the vet has a proper name for it. It is used to stop your dog from disturbing (ie. scratching, licking or nibbling) dressings/stitches after vetinary treatment.  Astronaut (talk) 00:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My vet calls them "e-collars", and the first time I heard the phrase was during IBM's big "e-foo" phase, so I got a good titter when I learned that e- stood for Elizabethan. --76.182.94.172 (talk) 00:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Creation Of A Death Note?
I am just curious, and I do have a few theories as to how it could POSSIBLY be done(Still need to do a bit more research, though my resources for knowlege are a bit limited at the moment), but I would like to simply ask..

Do you believe it can be done? And if so, how do you think I could go upon doing so?

Help, opinions, and critisism are all very much appriciated.

Edit - I mean like the series, Death Note. Although the suggestions for the Deadly Musical Note, and paid assassins did give me quite a good laugh. Gothrokkprincess (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "death note"? -- Hoary (talk) 16:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Please don't post questions to multiple desks (this was also posted on Science), pick one at stick with it. I don't know which one is more appropriate, since I have no idea what a "death note" is. Is it a musical note that kills anyone that hears it? Or a short letter that kills anyone that reads it? Something else entirely? I suggest we keep the discussion here, rather than science, unless it becomes clear that a scientific answer is required. --Tango (talk) 16:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming that this user is referring to Death Note, a Japanese film about a notebook with the unusual feature of causing the death of anyone whose name is written within. And the answer to the question, "Do you believe it can be done?" is no. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 16:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the answer is yes, since immortality isn't possible yet, none of the persons mentioned in the book could stop themselves from dying. --Mark PEA (talk) 16:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would imagine that you'd have to combine The Funniest Joke in the World with an inherently comical musical instrument. Naturally, you'd need several such instruments, with each performer responsible for only a single note of the final recording. Playing so much as a chord could render one comatose. &mdash; Lomn 16:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * [Removing my accordion from closet]: "Wenn ist das Nunstruck …" Deor (talk) 19:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You could hire a skilled assassin and arrange to leave the notebook at a dead drop. That might do it. --Tango (talk) 16:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, some jokes can make you laugh till you die. The joke would have to be put in a note form -- that would be the tricky part. Bus stop (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC) Bus stop (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If I could ask a question in return from the original poster: why would you think that this could be done? Or perhaps more to the point, why would you not think that it's impossible? -- Captain Disdain (talk) 16:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's easy. The notebook is an interface device connected to an alien spacecraft in geosynchronous orbit, cloaked to keep it from being spotted.  When a name is written in the notebook, a computer on the spacecraft parses it, interrogates a neural implant in the brain of the writer to uniquely identify the person named, locates the subject, and brings about his death.  Anything is possible with sufficiently advanced technology. Looie496 (talk) 16:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Even easier than that. Every so often I hand a large sum of money to a paid assassin. His job is to find the notebook, read its contents, and then kill everyone named in it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I said that one already... --Tango (talk) 18:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously great minds think alike. You're welcome to the credit - and I'll remember you thought of it first if I ever find myself investigating mysterious unconnected deaths. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, here's a novel way. Although it sounds gross, so I'll admit I didn't check the link - the description sounds like it tells enough.


 * Take the stuff from the skin of the poison dart frog. if you can somehow liquify that, and turn it into an ink, you *might* be able to then the notebook around to show the person whose name is in it that their name is in there. Have them touch the note, or rathe rtha ink, and I think just touching it will be enough to kill them, I don't think it actually has to enter the bloodstream, just the skin.


 * My apologies if I'm mistaken, but I watched plenty of Columbo and Perry Mason growing up, and read all the Agatha Christie mysteries. Considering I come just if I'm bored for a moment anyway, my mind just naturally likes to find unique solutions. :-)Somebody or his brother (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You didn't watch the second episode of Eleventh Hour (U.S. TV series) by any chance, did you, DTF? That was exactly the method used.  The variety of frog may have been different, but a poisonous frog was used.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The poison ink was also used in The Name of the Rose. Actually the theme of a deadly book has been used on several occasions, I even believe it has its own genre. Noteworthy examples include The King in Yellow, anything involving the Necronomicon (or one of its varieties invented by fellow Cthulhu mythoswriters like De Vermis Mysteriis by Robert Bloch or Unaussprechlichen Kulten invented by Robert E. Howard). Robert Anton Wilson has made an excellent pastiche of the genre in his book Masks of the Illuminati that gives a good introduction overall introduction as well. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't see that one, Jack, but it sounds interesting; it figures someone would have come up with that idea.Somebody or his brother (talk) 12:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I thoroughly enjoyed reading the responses above. However, none of the proposed solutions would work like a real Death Note. The Death Note allows you to specify an exact time and date. If no specific cause of death is mentioned, the victim will die of a heart attack. But the Death Note also allows you to specify the exact cause of death, even suicide. decltype (talk) 23:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think all the above responses are wrong IMHO. The OP is clearly asking about a DEATH CERTIFICATE, normally issued by a licensed physician certifying the death of a person, which can then be used to, inter alia, Register the death of said person, Bury or Cremate said person, Claim on said person's life insurance, Raid said person's bank and other financial assets, and, assuming said person isn't yet dead, but possibly incapable of managing his/her own estate, Thieve their identity. Be careful what info. you give to this just in case. 92.20.149.229 (talk) 00:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought of a death certificate when I first saw the questiojn title, too. But, the person seemed to be emphasizing whether it could possibly be done. I'll admit, though, I was really drawn in by the mystery aspect. :-) I don't think a death certificate can be done except by a licensed medical practitioner, but you don't even mention a jurisdiction - could be somewhere in the Untied States, could be anywhere else.Somebody or his brother (talk) 12:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, looking at the OP's contributions, they are mostly manga-related. That, and the fact that the 'N' in 'Note' is capitalized, leads me to believe the OP is indeed referring to Death Note. decltype (talk) 18:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you all for your contributions, they do have me thinking quite a bit. There ARE other ways to achieve the same goal that the Death Note used by the characters in the series, outside simply using a notebook. But I do believe it would be much more of a complicated challenge if one were to go off and try and create an exact replica, PLUS, make it work 1OO% the same way it does in the series. The best part would most likly be that there would be no Shinigami to kill you off, down sides, there would be no shinigami eyes, nor would there be immortality... Well, thats on a whole other topic. Basically what I am saying is, anyone who would like to assist me in this, and do a little research with me, or at least give me some ideas, feel free to let me know..! Gothrokkprincess (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * See also Lal Bihari. —Tamfang (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Home ownership rates
I remember seeing on the news a few years ago that the home ownership rate in America had reached its all time high. I think it was 70 something % but I can't remember the exact number... This site gives the current rate at about 68%, but it doesn't have any historical data that I can find. I was wondering, how much have home ownership rates dropped since the start of the recent economic upset? Has anyone estimated a number for how much Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increased home ownership rates? And how do American home ownership rates compare to other (developed) countries? TastyCakes (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Often a Google Images search is a good starting point for a question like this.  You'll have to consider the time frame and data source for each of these0 results though.
 * The question makes me wonder what the best data source for home ownership rates would be. Maybe it comes from census data and intermediate polling of both households and bank data.NByz (talk) 06:48, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the native Americans had 100% home ownership..hotclaws 03:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Including nomads? —Tamfang (talk) 21:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Fantastic Contraption noteworthy?
There is no article Fantastic Contraption at present. I enjoy it a lot. Is it worthy of an article? - I don't want to write one only to have it deleted. http://fantasticcontraption.com/ -- SGBailey (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, my opinion certainly isn't final and I'd suggest waiting for several opinions before deciding anything, but I'd say no... it's just a small Flash game that, while enjoyed by many people, isn't really notable by Wikipedia standards. There's been no news articles written about it, it hasn't made a significant contribution to anything... I just don't think there's enough importance about it to warrant an article. By the way, thanks so much for posting a question about it before writing the article!! --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress ( extermination requests here ) 17:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Our guidelines for the notability of web content are on Notability (web). The important part is this bit:
 * ''Keeping in mind that all articles must conform with our policy on verifiability to reliable sources, and that primary sources alone are not sufficient to establish notability, web-specific content is deemed notable based on meeting any one of the following criteria.
 * ''1. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes reliable published works in all forms, such as newspaper and magazine articles, books, television documentaries, websites, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations. except for the following:
 * ''* Media re-prints of press releases and advertising for the content or site.
 * ''* Trivial coverage, such as (1) newspaper articles that simply report the Internet address, (2) newspaper articles that simply report the times at which such content is updated or made available, (3) a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of Internet addresses and site or (4) content descriptions in Internet directories or online stores.
 * ''2. The website or content has won a well-known and independent award from either a publication or organization.
 * ''3. The content is distributed via a medium which is both respected and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster; except for trivial distribution including content being hosted on sites without editorial oversight (such as YouTube, MySpace, GeoCities, Newgrounds, personal blogs, etc.).
 * If this site satisfies any of those criteria, it is notable enough for an article, otherwise it probably isn't (exceptions can be made, but the subject would have to be very exceptional). --Tango (talk) 17:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Any chance somone could have a look at some of these to see if they meet the criteria - I suspect not: http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/08/28.2.shtml ; http://www.e4.com/game/fantastic-contraption/review.e4 ; http://jayisgames.com/archives/2008/07/fantastic_contraption.php ; http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/review.asp?c=11408&sec=7 ; http://www.n4g.com/pc/News-181169.aspx ; which are a few ghits. -- SGBailey (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Do we have notability guidelines for video games? I looked but didn't see any. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * We most certainly do. They can be found at WP:N, which states "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article."  Video games (indeed NO subject) is generally exempt from these guidelines.  In general, where the more specific guidelines exist, they give extra what sorts of information represents this significant coverage and the like, but there exists no exemptions from WP:N.  If you want to create an article on this subject, find significant coverage in reliable sources.  If that coverage outside of Wikipedia exists, and can be cited for the article, create the article and cite the outside coverage.  If the coverage does not exist, then the article should not.  It is that simple.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  21:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you meant "NO subject, including video games, is generally exempt from these guidelines". --  JackofOz (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * SGBailey: I'm not particularly well-versed in WP:N and have not participated in any deletion proposals, but having just read through WP:N, I would have to say no, it is not notable for an article. Also, I went through each one of the Web cites you listed and I would have say no, those would not qualify as reliable sources.  I also did my own (albiet brief) Google search and could not come up with any good sources for you to use.  There are other wikis out there that do permit original research such as www.wikademia.org.  I'm sure that there are others.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

How can I research 10.5 million weblinks to get the best answer?
I want to buy foreign currency online as I have done zillions of times previously. So, as usual, I typed in the name of the organisation I have used in the past with great satisfaction. But this time I discovered a load of other organisations that somehow seem to have adopted the same generic name into their web address. And the results page told me there were 10,500,000 other such sites with that name. So, ridiculous question that this is, has the internet become the monster it was always going to be ie., if I don't know the exact website address, how can I possibly be expected to sift through 10.5 million websites to get the one I want? And why are the other 10,499,999 subscribers wasting their fees? 92.20.149.229 (talk) 23:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised you got one clearly identifiable link a zillion times before. Are you sure you typed the correct search phrase this time?
 * The internet might change quickly, but I seriously doubt 10.5 million sites would suddenly spring up in a matter of days(?)/weeks(?) that match the exact same generic term you have been searching for.  If you know the name of the company, try typing "www.company.co.uk" into the address bar of your internet browser.    Astronaut (talk) 00:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC)