Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 November 4

= November 4 =

Racetrack for trains?
Around 50km east of Prague, near the town of Cerhenice, there is a large oval of rail track (centered at ) approx 5 km by 2.8 km. What is it for - a racetrack for trains? Astronaut (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a test track for railway rolling stock. See Velim railway test circuit. Grutness...wha?  00:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) What you're looking at is Železniční zkušební okruh u Velimi &mdash; the Velim railway test circuit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Cool! Thanks. Astronaut (talk) 04:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

An oval racetrack for trains probably wouldn't work out that well, as it would give an automatic advantage to the one on the inside. Would need two parallel sets of straight tracks, set up like with a quarter horse race or a drag race, except it would probably take a pair of locomotives a lot longer to go from 0 to 60. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You could do an oval track with crossovers, such as is done in speed skating. — Michael J  22:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That would undoubtedly add an element of intrigue. But why stop there? Why not have a locomotive version of "demolition derby"? Jim McKay would have been right there, in the old days. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible to sue US patent office?
Is it possible to sue US patent office for giving a patent to someone, if that thing is so obvious and it is part of everyday use in other countries (say, India) ? --V4vijayakumar (talk) 05:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You can sue anyone you want to. That doesn't mean you'll win. What object are you referring to specifically? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not going to sue anyone. Still this is disturbing what they do. for example, turmeric root, by products from neem tree, some rice verities (basmati), etc. I am not sure, if neem is patented then, no one can use neem stick to brush their teeth?! --V4vijayakumar (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Suits claiming that a patent is invalid, for reasons such as the original poster described, are certainly possible in the US. I don't know if the patent office or the patent holder would be the defendant.  See Honeywell v. Sperry Rand for a very important example of such a case, although this was a very complex case and should not be considered a typical example.  --Anonymous, 06:03 UTC, November 4, 2009.
 * See this article for a highly relevant example of the above. ~ Amory ( u •  t  •  c ) 06:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There are procedures in place at the patent office to challenge a patent application on grounds such as obviousness and similarity to existing products. If you have a beef with a patent that's already been granted, you can sue the patent holder in U.S. federal court and ask the court to rule the patent invalid on those same grounds. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 06:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the U.S. Patent office take into account the inventions that exist offshore but not within the U.S., when someone files for a patent? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Before granting a patent, patent offices search prior art that was disclosed before the invention occurred (in the United States) or before the filing date (in the rest of the world).Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't file against the patent office, you file against the patent holder (or they file against you). --Mr.98 (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but in Law 101 they tell you, "Always sue everybody", which means you should name the patent office as well, and let the court decide who the appropriate parties to the suit are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am reasonably sure you cannot name the patent office in a suit about the validity of a patent, but I don't actually know that for a fact. It would strike me as the sort of thing they would insist being in their legislation, though, to avoid being mired in lawsuits constantly. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sovereign immunity. You can only sue the US Federal government for causes expressly anticipated and allowed under federal law (mostly the Federal Tort Claims Act, but not exclusively).  Dragons flight (talk) 16:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The OP's lawyer would advise him on that point, presumably. I'd still like to know what specific invention the OP is talking about. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Oftentimes the media misinterprets a patent; for example there may be a patent on a specific novel use of tumeric root or a specific hybrid variety of the tumeric plant. A wild natural product can in no way be patented, but a use or production method CAN be.  However, people often confuse these differences; like the question we had on these desks a few days ago about someone patenting a certain shade of pink.  What was actually patented was the use of a certain shade of pink in a specific application, namely in psychological control of prisoners.  However, the media often will say something outrageous like "someone owns the patent on the color pink"  -- Jayron  32  21:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, and checking the question again concurs with my memory, no one ever found any evidence for a patent for the use of pink (or any colour) for any purpose. In the case of the specific question, at least one editor pointed out extensive prior art would suggest it unlikely Nil Einne (talk) 13:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Uses of Pink noise are in several patents. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Emailing
Why are you out of control? I can't find a way other than this to email you inspite of all the "Contact Us" stuff. Make it simple to be contacted and then verify the writer. You're vice versa and darned near impossible to send an email to. Check it for yourself. The computer gurus will ruin you with all their little ways to protect you from us BIG BAD people. Get real. Computer gurus are going to stifle communications altogether one day because they fear everything and everybody and think that imperfect computers will save the world. Far from it. Too many games one of these Dungeons and Dragons by computer gurus make them scared of their own shadows. Get simple, but for goodness sake, make things simple for the sake of communications.Make it easy to email you. Are you crazy with all this click this and click that to pages that don't even have a way to send you an email withou clicking this and clicking that again, ad infinitum?? Check your own website out! I've got 25 years of management experience and 3 degrees, yet your website keeps me confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Struckdown (talk • contribs) 14:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Title inserted, duplicate post struck. 131.111.248.99 (talk) 14:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What exactly do you want to contact Wikipedia about ? Who do you want to contact - a specific Wikipidea editor, the Wikipedia Foundation, or someone else ? Does you query fit any of the topics at Contact us ? Gandalf61 (talk) 14:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Even with your three degrees and years of management experience, your communication skills have let you down too. Do you wish to learn how to email Wikipedia or Wikipedians? --Dweller (talk) 14:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If you want to contact Wikipedia, there are usually better ways than email, depending what you want to contact people about. Usually, you'll need to edit a project page, like you did to post here.
 * If there's a problem with an article, try the discussion page (in the tab at the top of the article).
 * If you really do need to email because there is a problem in an article about you or about someone you represent, then I recommend you read this guidance and possibly send a plain text email to [mailto:info-en-q@wikimedia.org info-en-q@wikimedia.org]. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you may misunderstand how Wikipedia works. There is no one to e-mail—it is not "run" by any one person. Every page is editable by just about anyone. There are thousands of "authors" of the site. If you have a need to talk about a particular page, click the "Discussion" link at the top of the page in question, then click "new section", then add your comment/question (like you did to post this question). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well there are places to contact about copyright violation or problems with biographical articles or other legal type matters. But that is all on the contact us page. Need to be more specificx about the p;roblem. If your problem isn't legal then you're in the same boat as the rest of us and can edit the page yourself. May I direct you to the WP:Five pillars before you start editing. Dmcq (talk) 16:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with the perceived complaint of the OP, that the contact page could be improved, perhaps by better explaining the necessity and reasons why a person wishing to contact wikipedia has to do a job of working out the best contact point. On the one hand, it is common enough to find companies seeking to direct a would-be correspondent to an appropriate FAQ or web form and which do not provide email addresses; on the other plenty enough other website do provide a simple email address within their contact page. I can see why a person might stumble upon their failure easily to discover a wikipedia email address, not least if their issue is not covered by the string of For x see y instructions. The remainder of ridiculous ad hominem attacks, as normal, say more about the writer than the object of their attack. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever the problems with the contact us page, I don't see any mention of the RD on it. It is linked indirectly from Find more about a specific fact (which is linked to WP:Questions) and when linking has the comment "The Reference Desk is like a library reference desk". And of course the name "Reference desk" should also give a hint to anyone who thinks about it, as well as this sentence very early on in WP:RD "The Wikipedia reference desk works like a library reference desk" that this isn't the right place to ask such a question. I say all this primarily because of all the places you could ask a question of this sort on wikipedia, the RD is probably one of the worst. P.S. And as for the contact page, while I'm not saying it can't be improved I would say the very big red statement "Wikipedia has no editorial board" followed by "Revisions are not reviewed before they appear on the site. Content is not the result of an editorial decision by the Wikimedia Foundation or its staff" and two sentences later "Wikipedia is written, edited, maintained, and almost completely operated by volunteers from around the world" should give people with a decent level of English an idea of why there's no simple email address. Nil Einne (talk) 13:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Ford trivia
Is 6900 the original warranty number of Ford motor co.? Bellanine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bellanine (talk • contribs) 15:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You might have to give us more to go on. Old Fords may have a "warranty number" which is a precursor of the Vehicle Identification Number modern cars have, but what is the "warranty number" of the company, and why do you think it's 6900? FiggyBee (talk) 01:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Early Ford serial numbers started with 18, then 54, then 99A and 1A (see, for example ). But I've never heard of people tracking "warranty" numbers. SteveBaker (talk) 01:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Dealing with difficult people !!
I wonder what will i name this "difficult people or difficult situations" but whatever, why do these self boasting,critical,fault finding people so demeaning and put us in a very awkward situations to respond in appropriate manner. are there some traiing courses in dealing with these kind? especially if you just doing the right thing but put us to self analysis if thats really correct what we think is? on the other hand there are people more forgiving, understanding and graceful to even if we have faulted agnist them unknowingly or helplessly and they create a sense of respect and love not to be forgotten.any suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.140.188 (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Afraid I can't give you any advice on dealing with such people, but to answer one of your questions, yes, there are courses available on this specific subject. My company's internal catalogue of courses available to employees includes one called "Dealing with Different People", which is said to have been renamed from an original title of "Dealing with Difficult People". I haven't taken this course; I may do one day. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Assertiveness training courses may help. Two books I can recommend are: "Dealing with Difficult People" by Roberta Cava (published by Piatkus in the UK), and "Assertiveness at Work" by Ken and Kate Back. You may wish to consider whether it's the people who are difficult, or the situation. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * And unfortunately there are quite a few article on Wikipedia where you can then test out your skills on the talk page ;-) Dmcq (talk) 22:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Dare I say you could even test out your skills by helping us out on the Reference Desks! :) Grutness...wha?  23:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Difficult Personalities A practical guide to managing the hurtful behaviour of others (and maybe your own!). Published by Choice Books. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Wazz up with market !!
Has the days of recession gone by? has the job market recovered? what about the GDP's relation with us fetching our jobs? what are the indications that the market has recovered after the billion bailout as there seem to be no indication or are we waiting for some other billionaire whooping our money and jobs again.what are the indications that an economy is recovering.too confused. anyone? Seekhle (talk) 19:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Traditionally, stock markets recover about 6 months before the jobs markets. This would indicate that those who invest in the stock market believe that an economic recovery will begin within the next 6 months hence the stock commanding higher prices.  Googlemeister (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * We have an extensive article series on the Late-2000s recession. Specific answers to your questions depend heavily (if not exclusively) on where you are and who you ask. &mdash; Lomn 19:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are many different theories about why the stock market has been rising and whether or when we will see a recovery in employment. No one really knows, not even anyone on the Reference Desk.  Marco polo (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There are also come questions about whether this is a "W"-shaped recession or a "U" or "V" or "L"-shaped recession. If it is a "W"-shaped recession, such spikes in stock prices are usually followed by equally large or larger secondary crashes.  See Recession shapes for more on this.  This data can only really be interpreted in hindsight, so the most honest economist is likely one that says "fucked if I know?" when asked any question.  Unfortunately, such economists don't find work too often, so we get 1000 prognosticators, each making equally random guesses as to what will happen next.  -- Jayron  32  21:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What Jayron and Googlemeister said ... amplified with: Understand that there is no one single measure of the economy, or its strength, or its shape. That said, however, there are many "indicators".  Conventional wisdom says that the Stock Market indices are leading indicators, in that they react before the others; and the unemployment rate is a trailing indicator, pretty much the last measure to react (both on the way down and the way up).
 * Taken together, by the time employment recovers, much money will have already been made in the markets, expecially by those whose job it is to make judgement calls ahead of their peers.
 * --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You didn't mention which country you're interested in. While the worlds economies are interconnected and most economies are suffering to some extent, there is a wide variance in the extent. For example while this is sometimes called a 'global recession', some countries are not in recession and have never been. The current situation in the job market also varies significantly. Some countries are recovering faster, some stock markets are doing better then others. The level and type of government assistance also varies. My guess would be you're referring to the US or India (athough as far as I'm aware India isn't in recession and haven't been for a long while), but contributors shouldn't have to guess. Nil Einne (talk) 12:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me just put it out there that it is possible that some countries will never have a full economic recovery and that their economies and wage income will never return to the peak of 2006 or 2007. This is not a possibility raised by most mainstream economists, but there are reasons to think that the United States and some other countries will not have a full recovery like those that have occurred after other recessions over the last two centuries. Here is a source making the case for an end to growth. Others may respond with conventional arguments for why we have not reached the end of growth in the global economy, and they may be right. But they may also be wrong.  Marco polo (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Honda and Family Center in Rancho Santa Margarita
When have honda center in RSM off like Avenida Emprasa and Santa Margarita pkwy open. Did it open in 1999 or 2003? i just know when I was a little boy (in 1995/1996) (when the green light was pale and whiter) i doubt ther was the honda and auto center at that long time ago. I've notice the signla lights might have change.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. The Honda Center is in Anaheim, not RSM.  Unless there are two Honda Centers in Orange County, you may be mistaken.  And it opened in 1993.  It's located here:  off of Katella Avenue and the 57 Freeway.  -- Jayron  32  21:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The OP is refering to Family Honda, it's a dealership. I don't know when it opened though -- Mad031683  (talk) 00:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This page says that Family Honda opened in February 2001. Deor (talk) 15:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * this is the place locate, wow is 2/2001 that is amazing. --209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

copper
how do you patch up copper pipe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conroy422 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Practically, or theoretically? Theoretically, by soldering a new, slightly larger section of pipe over the top.  Practically, by getting someone who knows what they're doing to do it. FiggyBee (talk) 00:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.  :)  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This just went into my quotes page. --Ouro (blah blah) 10:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

By cutting out the damaged section and inserting a new piece. Soldering will be the most reliable; as a beginner I'd suggest you choose solder-ring fittings rather than end feed. Make sure you clean the pipe well both mechanically (abrasive pad or steel wool) and chemically (with flux). (Incidentally, make sure you wipe away excess flux once the joint is done, otherwise it encourages ugly green corrosion on the pipe.) If you don't fancy soldering you could use compression fittings requiring only a spanner to fit; these will be more prone to leaking and look amateurish, but in my local B&Q they do sell kits of a short length of pipe and a pair of straight fittings for this very purpose. Whether solder or compression, if your pipe is held firmly in situ, you will need at least one and maybe both of the fittings to be a "slip coupling". This means it can slide all the way onto the pipe to let you fit the replacement section in place; without slip couplings you have to pull the cut ends of the pipe away from each other and that may not be possible.

This stuff isn't rocket science; by all means "get someone know knows what they're doing" if you prefer, but if you want to do it yourself you can. Probably worth googling up a longer explanation than mine on how to use solder fittings if you're not sure about them - they rarely have instructions on the packet. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 08:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Soldering is difficult if you're not used to it. You really have to get the pipe super-clean and shiney - and the heat has to be just right to melt the solder all the way around.  What's really bad is if you leave a tiny pinhole gap.  You think you fixed it so you turn the water back on - see the jet of water (or the drips) and your heart sinks.  The problem is that now the pipe is full of water and copper conducts heat quite well - so it's difficult to get the solder hot enough to melt again so it'll flow back into that gap because even with a LOT of heat, all you're doing is boiling the water.  It never gets hot enough for the solder to melt and you need a seriously big-assed heat source to fix it afterwards.  So if you haven't done it before (and if you had, you wouldn't be asking us!) - you can expect a lot of messing around.  It's better to learn with a few bits of scrap pipe - and only try to tackle the repair when you know what to expect and you're pretty sure you'll get it right first time.  Hence, I think I'd recommend using threaded pipe fittings for a typical on-off DIY job.  SteveBaker (talk) 13:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I must have got lucky then - my explanation above was based on a single plumbing job I did recently with about 12 solder-ring elbows in it. That was the first piece of plumbing soldering I've ever done. No leaks, no problems. I've done a few jobs with compression fittings, and always had difficulty getting all the joints to seal without weeping. Some jobs absolutely require one approach or the other, but where either could be used I'll be picking solder-ring in future. I did suggest compression as an option to the OP though, and there'd be nothing wrong with him choosing that option. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Not so easy with lead-free solder; I recommend you practice a bit before going live. Google for some decent how-tos and videos. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC) (former rocket technician)
 * You could also try a pipe repair clamp/sleeve clamp that fits over and around the leak, or plumber's epoxy to mend a leaking joint. Replacing the section of pipe is the best long-term solution. --Lesleyhood (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeesh, most of that looks like a horrible bodge - duct tape, FFS? The dedicated clamp at looks like the least-bad option, but should really only be regarded as temporary. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 19:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)