Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 October 20

= October 20 =

Surrogacy
When women use donor eggs or surrogate mothers to have children, who is the baby genetically related to; the woman carrying the baby or the woman the egg came from? Who does it look like? Is it related to both women? (Not requesting medical advice). --124.254.77.148 (talk) 05:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It is only genetically related to the woman who provided the egg. The surrogate mother is basically only an incubator for the egg, and provides no actual genetic material for the child.  -- Jayron  32  05:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That being said, the mother carrying the child will still greatly affect the child if carried to term. The amount and type of nutrients, hormones, steroids, and other products (alcohol, nicotine, etc.) she ingests during gestation will greatly influence the child.  And, if you believe Clive Barker, music. ~ Amory ( u  •  t  •  c ) 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There is a technique called Spindle transfer that is currently being researched using monkeys, though it has not yet been legalised for or (so far as is known) applied to human subjects. It involves placing the nucleus of the donor egg into the de-nucleated egg of the surrogate mother, resulting in the egg with the Mitochondrial DNA of the surrogate and the Nuclear DNA of the donor. It would be of obvious value in cases where the donor carried a Mitochondrial disease. In such a case the baby would be genetically related to both women, though in different respects: we are not yet in a position to know how this would affect the baby's appearance. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Flushing water mains
There's a town near me that puts up little signs at busy intersections to notify the residents about the water mains being flushed soon. This is the only town that I've ever seen put up such signs. Is this a yearly thing that all water systems go through and other places just don't bother to inform the populace in such ways? Or does this town maybe have some water system that requires a flush every year? And finally, what's the point of flushing the water mains yearly? FYI, this is in the US state of Vermont. Dismas |(talk) 05:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The town I live in (Northern Illinois, USA) does the same sort of thing, though the signs read "Hydrant flushing". My understanding is that this is an effort to flush sediment from the pipes. here's a page that gives an official answer. –RHolton ≡ – 10:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In one major US city, Washington DC if I recall correctly, officials neglected to do mains flushing for several years and a layer of slimy crud built up in the pipes. Edison (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * They might put up the signs due to liability issues. I actually just read a news article about a motorcycle rider who complained to the city about the several inches of water in the road which was put there by a mains flushing crew. Turns out that unless you're exceedingly careful, it's easy to hydroplane and lose control of a motorcycle in that level of water. If someone threatened legal action in the past, the city might have decided it's cheaper to put up the signs than to risk being held liable for causing an accident. -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

~
 * As I understand it, (going from memory here) you usually don't have to flush pipes because the flow of water from normal household/industrial use will be sufficient. Sometimes the city will lay down water pipes that are wider than what's needed, for example in preparation for a large real estate development. When they do that the water will flow so slowly in that pipe (due to the larger cross section) that particles in the water will fall to the bottom of the pipe and the pipe will have to be flushed regularly.Sjö (talk) 09:06, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Compact Disks
how did compact discs create new business opportunites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christina hamby (talk • contribs) 13:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * What was before? Who bought them? What kinds of equipment (if any) were needed to go with them? What sales and manufacturing jobs were created? Think along those lines, and you will find the answers coming quickly.


 * You have a brain. So, exercise it. It will help you in life, and greater cognitive stimulation may even help avoid Alzheimer's Disease later, according to some sources (see article).209.244.187.155 (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You might also like to think about what Compact Disks can do that vinyl records and tapes can't. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You know, as an aside, its very interesting that vinyl records were NOT used for computer programs and data storage. Hollerith cards and Punched tape were used for a long time, and it seems that vinyl records would have offered significant advantages in terms of durability and data bit density that paper storage didn't.  I suppose the tradeoff is in flexibility in use; after all CDs really didn't take off in this realm until home CD burners became standard.  -- Jayron  32  19:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes they were! Floppy ROM.  Admittedly, acetate rather than vinyl, but the gramophone _was_ briefly used for data storage. Tevildo (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The other factor is that Magnetic tape was also around since before computers so once paper was reaching its practical limits there was no reason not to skip the much older vinyl technology and go straight to magnetic tape. Vespine (talk) 22:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Punched tape, Hollerith cards, and CDs are all digital media. Vinyl records (like cassette tapes) are analog media.  Analog media can be used for storing digital data (and both cassette tapes and vinyl were), but the result is essentially a recording of a modem session, with many of the same data-integrity problems. --Carnildo (talk) 23:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no reason why a digital signal could not be stored on a vinyl record; for example using only two standard bit-heights in the grooves; after all magnetic tape is used in both digital and analog formats. -- Jayron  32  03:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The data sent along with the Voyager craft had a kind-of record and a mechanical player that could be used play back the info, which contained a combination of sounds and photos. That was on metal, not vinyl. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You could maybe do an email interview with one of the less modest people who worked on the the team who invented the first ever CD-ROM. If they had an email this user link on their Wikipedia user page and kinda indicated that they'd be happy to answer a few questions on the topic, that would be rather easy. ;-) SteveBaker (talk) 04:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * well played sir!! Gzuckier (talk) 17:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

want a article on HOW MS -OFFICE USED IN BUSSINESS & INDUSTRY.
I want a article on HOW MS -OFFICE USED IN BUSSINESS & INDUSTRY. and also want a ppt on this tropic. Prasenjitghosh (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So make them. This, however, is not the place to get others to do your work for you, whether homework or your job. ~ Amory ( u  •  t  •  c ) 14:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Microsoft Office is one of the most popular software packages ever produced, and is extremely widely used in all sections of industry. I suggest having a closer look at what Office does. That will explain how it's used in industry. For example MS-Word is good for writing documents. And as for preparing a Powerpoint, well what package are you going to use to prepare that? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Prasenjitghosh, would suggest you to look around and list out the varied uses MS office has, in day-to-day work. It isn't a big deal at all to get a decent article written on the benefits of MS Office products in business and industry. For business, think of all the possible job roles and for industry, consider different industries like retail, fashion etc. A simple example :- Job Roles- Excel is used by many business analysts as a reporting tool to draw charts etc. Industry - Powerpoint is a commonly used tool by fashion startups to show their designs as a slide show. Similarly you can come up with infinite ways in which MS office products are beneficial to business at largeKarenJohn (talk) 09:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC) KarenJohn

London web cams
I've looked but all I can find are static images of london. Anyone know any "live" web cams where you actually see shit moving then just still images. thanks
 * I'm really hoping there are no cameras in places where you might see shit moving. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * haha! sorry i meant to say "stuff" but it's a bad habit
 * I would think cameras which keep tracking of the flow of the sewer pipes would be something that municipalities would think worthwhile. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure there are lots, but I don't have time to look right now. For starters, take a look at the external links at the bottom of the Abbey Road (street) article. You can watch people trying to get run over...--Shantavira|feed me 16:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's one.Popcorn II (talk) 16:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

...and here's another!Popcorn II (talk) 16:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

...and another!Popcorn II (talk) 16:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

...Boom! There's another!Popcorn II (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Typing in 'London Webcam' on Wikipedia generally gets results sooner or later, but typing it in the search box on Google is so much faster, as I just did it here. Good luck sifting through the six-and-a-half million pages I got in that search! --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, but i can't seem to view the cams, it says I need windows media player plugin but it's still not working even after I've installed it. anyway thanks for the help I'm sure I'll figure something out

Google Japan's Image
Is the image on Google Japan today an allusion to the recent news story about a boy in US disappearing for a while and his parents 'thought' he was inside a balloon? The caption on the image says ' Search for the Boy Young Detective' or something to that effect. Or is this a reference to something else? It doesn't appear on Google UK, so I would assume it must be something specifically related to Japan? Does anyone know? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 16:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It links to the Japanese Wikipedia article for Edogawa Rampo. What it means, I don't  know.  99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. October 21 is Rampo's birthday.  99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Aha! That would make sense! Cheers! --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 17:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As you may have now realised, clicking on the Google doodle/logo when it's something out of the ordinary nearly always does a search. If it's a search in a language you don't understand (although I believe you do understand Japanese) it may be helpful to check out the search links. Wikipedia is a useful thing to check if its in the search results because there may be an interwiki to the English version, as there was for ja:江戸川乱歩. Also there would usually be some description (often with a year) in the search for the doodle, e.g. in this case http://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E6%B1%9F%E6%88%B8%E5%B7%9D%E4%B9%B1%E6%AD%A9&ct=rampo09&oi=ddle it's "rampo09" i.e. rampo 2009 Nil Einne (talk) 18:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I only just found out about that little 'trick' on Google. I wish I'd known it before, because there are some others which I am still a little bemused about - for example the bar code replacement for the Google logo a few weeks ago. Cheers! --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 19:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The majority of the time it is an anniversary or a birthday. October 7th 1952 was the date when the patent was issued to the inventers of barcode.

If you study Engineering_management, are you more like an engineer or like a manager?
I always get the impression that the later is the case, but can you still get accepted at a professional engineer association? Quest09 (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * At my engineering school at Syracuse University, engineering management is either a minor or a post-graduate degree. This would mean that a student would supplement their engineering education with management skills, specifically tailored for the engineering industry.  If someone majored in solely engineering management, then I suppose they would end up with a management degree that specialized in engineering project oversight.  From what little I have seen of the industry (I will graduate in May 2010), the engineering managers all started with at least an engineering degree before becoming a manager or receiving management education.  You would still have to pass the applicable certification exams to become a licensed engineer, but I don't know about merely joining a professional engineer association.  It would probably vary depending on the association. For example, to join IEEE you would need to reach some sort of academic requirement, which you may or may not fulfill during your normal engineering management education. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 18:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Where did the idea of suicide leads to hell originate from,it is a Catholic beliefe?
I just want to know where the Catholics belief in that suicide leads to hell originated.Where did it come from? It isnt in the bible.Christianson3373 (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you try reading Suicide particularly Suicide and Religious views of suicide? Nil Einne (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you think of looking in the Catholic Encyclopedia ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It is an interesting question. Especially considering the often referred stories of stoic nobles killing themselves in Republican and Imperial Rome, and how the ancient sources obviously stresses that this action only makes them even more philosophical and noble, sometimes reminding of the classic Japanese ethos. It is obvious, considering the modern view on suicide that this changed at some period, and it is also obvious that this must have something to do with the influence of Christianity, but when and how and how fast this change occurred is not so obvious. While the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia gives a good impression of the Catholic stance on suicide, it does not provide any sort of historiography on the changing view on suicide. The wiki articles Suicide and Religious views of suicide also fail to provide a history of the change from the pagan Roman view of suicide to the Christian view (although Christian views on suicide does provide some more information about the early period, it is not explaining the change from paganism to Christianity per se). --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I misread the question as being whether the belief that suicide leads to hell originated as a Catholic belief so linked to the two above articles rather then Christian views on suicide Nil Einne (talk) 19:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Who knows. The idea of hell is sort of a superstitious disincentive to do immoral things. There's no rhyme or reason to where it comes from, aside from a demented imagination. The suicide-as-sin thing is natural considering that it could well be construed as a failure of faith or courage. Vranak (talk) 20:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a violation of "Thou shalt not kill", compounded with its finality, i.e. no time to ask forgiveness, maybe unless you're jumping from the Golden Gate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Religion aside, suicide or attempted suicide has been historically illegal in many places, most notably the UK until 1961. FiggyBee (talk) 03:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect that it has something to do with the development of doctrine surrounding mortal sin -- given that suicide is a mortal sin by my reading of the criteria, and that dying with an unconfessed mortal sin on one's soul is a ticket to Hell, and that clearly suicide leaves no time after the commission of the sin for repentance, contrition, and absolution. I'm not sure, though, when the notion of mortal sin (which, it must be noted, isn't explicit in the Bible either) cropped up.  I wish I had a reference to substantiate this theory. :-) Jwrosenzweig (talk) 07:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very little in Christianity originated in Christianity -- most of it is based somewhat on Judaism, from which it splintered. Suicide is frowned upon in Judaism as its performance undermines the understanding that life is a gift from God and it is not for the human to decide when life should end -- not that of one's friend (in the case of murder) and not that of one's self.  There is a common misconception that Jews who commit suicide are may not be buried in Jewish cemetery.  In fact, that is only if the suicide was in conjunction with some belief foreign to Jewish tradition, such as one committing suicide in parallel with avodah zara.  Those who commit suicide as a result of genuine insanity or depression are granted burial within Jewish cemeteries.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 03:04, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Good points, DRosenbach, though the OP's question referred to Hell directly, a concept that is foreign (as I understand it) to traditional Jewish thought. Would Judaism associate suicide with punishment in the afterlife (and if so, where is the place of punishment?  My sense was that Sheol is simply a word describing a sort of general underworld, without implying torment.)?  It sounds like, from your descriptions, it is "frowned upon" or perhaps disgraceful, given the restrictions on burial, but I'm not sure I see how that translates to automatic condemnation in the afterlife. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 07:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Fascinating ... Contributor DRosenbach (a) asserts that the Catholic dogma that suicide buys one eternal damnation comes from Jusaism, while (b) demonstrating that Judaism does not treat suicides as damned.


 * As with many tenets of various faiths, it is unclear when this particular one was determined to be part of the faith, and by whom. Clearly, there are no red-letter statements in any of the canonical gospels that can be pointed to as the source. B00P (talk) 07:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Kayaking Escapade
I am currently a freshman in college, but I have always planned on going on a kayak trip from near my home (western NC) all the way to the Atlantic Ocean. I've been tossing about ideas for several weeks now, and I think that I should go ahead and do some preliminary planning in order to be better prepared and have a more solid, stable foundation for the trip when the time comes for more specific and heavy planning. So, in order to not overlook any resource--and since I respect the diversity and helpfulness of those on these boards--I am opening my case to the public. Feel free to make any suggestions whatsoever. Feel free to e-mail me at , or Skype message me at username:. You can also post here, but the subject will only be viewed for such a short time, so I have opened up my e-mail and Skype to prolong the flow of ideas.

It should be noted that the main goal of this trip is so I can keep a journal of my day to day experiences before, during, and immediately after the trip, in order to publish a book.

There is also potential that I will have a partner kayaking with me; please make suggestions under both categories, for that would effect packing and supply distributions (we would only need 1 tent, but a different tent than I would need if I'm to be by myself).

Here are some things I know I should consider; you are free to add, comment on those that need commenting, or suggest postponing something for later consideration:

-Funding: I hope to get local sponsorships or donations that will help. Most of the things that I will need, I will try to get donated, or at least discounted, by means of sponsorship or donations from people. -Kayak(s): A major part of the trip. I'll need a durable single-seat kayak with a spacious cargo area for all the supplies (tent, firemaking materials, food, water, etc. etc.). Cargo area needs to be waterproof, and the kayak needs to be able to fit my 6'7", 200 lb. frame comfortably; I'll be in it a while. (My partner is considerably smaller than I, and he would have no issues fitting in a "normal" kayak). -Camping supplies: I need to know what tent would be best suitable (since my camping options may be less than optimum, something diverse), what fire kits would be most efficacious. Everything also needs to be extremely packable; it will spend much time in the cargo area of the kayak(s). -Food/drink: It is obvious that packing enough supplies to last the whole journey will be impossible to do; I plan on making "checkpoints" in order to restock food and other supplies occasionally along my journey. However, I plan on being slightly self sustaining (boiling river water to drink, catching fish to cook, etc.). -River Maps/Topography: I DEFINITELY need these things, as it would be less than satisfactory if I were to kayak to the brink of a 50 ft. waterfall and not be able to go back against the current. I also need to be able to plan ahead which rivers to take, so any river suggestions would be very nice. (My planned starting point is somewhere close to the Kerr Scott Dam near Wilkesboro, North Carolina; I will start below the dam and begin down the Yadkin river as the first leg of my journey if at all possible.) -GPS: I will need a GPS, preferably waterproof, in order to locate myself, relevant rivers, landmarks, towns, as well as be able to inform people of my postion in case of supply restocking or emergency. -Cell Phone: I don't want to text/call people on the trip. However, to inform people of where I am will be necessary for supply restock or emergency. Waterproof would be preferable. -Clothing: I'm not sure what type of clothing would be most suitable for a long-term kayaking journey. Normally I've only kayaked for at most 6 hours at a time, and went without a shirt and wore swimming trunks and was barefoot. However I now have Vibram FiveFingers which I find extremely suitable for amphibious wear. -Weather device: some sort of weather forecast radio or something, in order to avoid getting flooded to oblivion. -A journal-keeping device: I've heard I can get a waterproof laptop, such as a toughbook or something. It just needs to be able to word process, though I'm toying with the idea of keeping a blog as well, so possibly an internet USB or something.

Feel free to add anything. I want to be totally prepared! Hubydane (talk) 00:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I've deleted your e-mail address - see the rules at the top of this page. I'm sure a more useful answer will be posted before long. Tevildo (talk) 22:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like quite an adventure. My suggestions- scout whatever route you choose as much as possible. Don't rely on a map to show you rapids, gravel bars, waterfalls, dams, sluiceways, dragons, psychotic hillbillys etc. Ask the locals for advice, and look for a whitewater/paddling club. They already know how to do it. I also recommend stocking up on old army ammunition containers. They are watertight, float, and there is very little you can do to break them. Just about every surplus store will have them and I see them at flea markets from time to time. 161.222.160.8 (talk) 22:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Check on the old ammunition containers, I already have several of them. However, I will scout as little as possible without sacrificing safety. I'll most likely only check for access points for potential supply restock, and to make sure no hidden dams, potential hazards occur. Rapids, however, are welcome. I think the unknown aspect will only add; I will, as I said, however, not sacrifice safety. Hubydane (talk) 00:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a 165-mile canoe trail on the Yadkin but it has several hydrodams. You can see others reports here. Your best bet is to find an outfitter to take you on a multi-day trip so you can familiarize yourself with water filters, waterproof duffles and sacks, portable stoves, etc that you will need will canoe camping. Rmhermen (talk) 01:17, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright! That canoe camping trail solves any trespassing issues in North Carolina. Now if I can find something similar along the Pee-Dee, I'm almost there! The hydrodams shouldn't be too much of a hassle, though, since it is along the trail stretch and there will surely be easy ways for canoe/kayak users to navigate these (of course, these will be part of the scouting, though). I'm not much of a fan of the water purifiers and portable stoves, though. I'm trying to stay as low-tech as possible (excluding the cell phone, laptop, and GPS; those won't be helping me eat or drink, but there for precautionary or literary purposes only). I'm sure I can boil water in a pot and cook (or at least heat) any food that I want to cook. Rain is the obvious variable here, but that's what nabs and plastic bottles are for. Thanks for the ideas, though. Keep it up!24.181.202.2 (talk) 02:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If you are camping, how do you intend recharging the GPS, cell phone & laptop? It might be better to keep a journal in a paper notebook (kept wrapped in plastic and in one of the ammo tins), then write it up online once the trip is finished. Of course, with outside support it might be easier to stay connected to the 21st century.  Astronaut (talk) 14:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you have a pretty solid grip on your needs and concerns for what promises to be an interesting trip. I would recommend some type of self-defense item, (knife, pepper spray, bow and arrow, etc)For what it is worth, I'll probably be buying the book! 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When I'm hiking, my self-defence equipment is a hiking stick: the most common hazard is dogs. You don't want to get within knife-range of them, and you can't tell they're dangerous at bow range. --Carnildo (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, very nice point Astronaut. I hadn't thought about recharging... Maybe a battery-operated GPS, and a high-powered radio to coordinate supply restockings? I want to stay away from the 21st century as possible. The whole point is to make it an adventure, not a sheltered trip where I don't go 72hrs+ without "outside" contact. And, I'll be sure to have multiple knifes. I'm a veteran outdoorsman (though I'm young, I've been around horse related campings, etc.), so I won't have a lack of knives. And on the subject of dogs, I don't plan on shooting a bow and arrow at them, and I will probably have a staff of some sorts for around the campsite, so I should be fine without any extra weaponry. Besides, I'll be on the river hopefully more than I'm off of it. And, I've officially decided to go paper with my journal. Now for another question though: should my partner (if he decides to go) keep a journal as well, then combine the two for publishing? Or should be both contribute to the same one? And I'll definite post a link or something on here (or maybe even write my own article) about the book when I get it published. Look for it in 5 years or so. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hubydane (talk • contribs) 03:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

A/V receivers: 7.1 vs 5.1 surround sound
My home theater is currently a 5.1 surround sound system. My A/V receiver is going bad and I need to buy a new one. A lot of the new receivers out today seems to support 7.1 but I have no interest in buying two extra speakers. What I'm trying to figure out is if 7.1 receivers support a 5.1 speaker configuration. Just to be clear, I know I can hook-up my 5.1 speaker system and leave 2 channels unfilled. What I want is the receiver to output 5.1 (and not 7.1 audio) and have each channel outputted to the correct speakers. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked at one particular receiver - the Sony STR-DH700 - and the manual indicates that you can use 5, 6 or 7 speakers (plus a subwoofer), and there are various setup/menu settings to enable each configuration. This may not be the case for all available 7.1 receivers, so I'd suggest trying to find an online manual for any particular make/model that you might be considering.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Larry. That's a good suggestion.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)