Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 September 8

= September 8 =

Crinoline Dresses
In the days when ladies wore Crinoline, how did they relieve themselves? I mean did they have large (wide) toilets or did they have to take off the skirts before entering the WC? How did this work? Puzzled.
 * Versailles had no toilets, so those suave French aristocrats went in the stairways and other out-of-the-way places. No wonder there was a revolution. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, if you look up the history of underwear, the bloomers underneath were crotchless (this is the mid-19th century, well past the Versailles era), so you didn't have to take off the skirt (that was difficult, even when you were used to it). The toilet itself was mostly a bowl, so you could crouch over it. The room itself would be larger than a modern bathroom, as I'm led to believe, if there indeed was a room dedicated to it. In many places it would be behind a screen or just in an out of the way place in the room. Steewi (talk) 02:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The answer to Crinoline is Chamber pot. And a servant willing to hold it in place during the deed.  -- Jayron  32  02:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the "pots" were oval, more like sauce-boats in shape, and used by holding them in place under the skirt, without sitting down. I saw some in an antiques TV show but I can't remember their name. - KoolerStill (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Versailles is an amazing place - the combination of such opulence and astounding luxury - combined with being a place where no modern person could stand to live - crude in so many ways. If you have the opportunity to take the tour - you definitely should, it's astounding. SteveBaker (talk) 02:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

A charming crinoline in motion. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The crinolines fold up,you hoick it up round your waist and your whole lower half is free....hotclaws 17:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Music royalties
I was reading about music royalties and couldn't understand exactly how they apply (or rather, are applied) -- I mean, if a hired band with hired singers plays music and sing they lyrics of songs they did not write/arrange, are the original composers/lyricists actually entitled to compensation, and it's just that this rule is consistently and continually broken?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 01:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Pretty much, yes. Every time a bunch of kids sing "Happy Birthday To You" - they are (perhaps) infringing the copyright of Warner/Chappell Music - and could, possibly, be sued for doing so.  As you say, it's hard to enforce - and rarely is - but that doesn't make it legal.  Worse still - there are MANY copyrights that could be being infringed - the lyrics and the music may have separate copyrights, the printed music - another, any recordings of performances, another - and the publication of those recordings, yet another!  It's a minefield. SteveBaker (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Re Happy Birthday To You: in which jurisdiction, and are you sure? Where I live the copyright law has the concept of private performance, for which no fees are needed. A private party is different from a performance down at the pub where anyone can come. 62.78.198.48 (talk) 08:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * For professionals, it is relatively easy to get the rights to perform something, because there are organizations devoted to managing these sorts of rights (e.g. BMI and ASCAP). Even high school band directors go through them before performing something copyrighted. It's not that hard to enforce—you only bother to sue those people who do it for money or are important enough to warrant (and the fines are substantial). Again, it is very, very standard to secure the rights to perform something before you perform it, if you are covering copyrighted work and are a professional. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Through work I had to deal with this kind of thing in Germany - their association dealing with this is named GEMA, which stands for Gesellschaft für musikalische Aufführungs- und mechanische Vervielfältigungsrechte (something like Society for musical performance rights and mechanical reproduction rights). We were organising a congress-type event for 800+ people - they required us to fill in a two- or three-page form and send it in, they'd check whether we had calculated the royalties due correctly - and that was it. These sums were in the thousands of Euros, but it wasn't really very difficult (they gave very detailed and precise instructions on how to calculate the due amounts - after all, 's Germany). --Ouro (blah blah) 05:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A private, non-professional rendering of "Happy Birthday" wouldn't be subject to a lawsuit. In public theoretically could be a different story. Maybe someone can explain how royalties are handled for songs that are in a jukebox. I bring that up because Eddy Howard's rendition of "Happy Birthday" used to be carried in jukeboxes, and obviously could be played whenever someone in the given tavern or restaurant was celebrating a birthday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The following does not constitute legal advice, but in the U.S., publishers sell arrangements to concert bands with the right to perform them publicly when the performance is free (no admission). If tickets are sold, extra payment is technically required. There are additional rules for making a recording of it or using it in a movie soundtrack. Edison (talk) 16:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What about karaoke? Do the people who drag karaoke machines with them from bar to bar pay royalties?  Do they have to keep track of which songs are actually performed, or do they just pay blanket fees to ASCAP:?  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

OP here -- my initial question was referring to wedding bands that play music for fees in the USA. I was very surprised to read this, as I had never thought about it. The wide array of Jewish music is played at every Jewish wedding I attend and it's rare to have an actual music artist be the singer at the wedding (and therefor be exempt for singing his own songs, perhaps with permission from the composer that wrote the music). Wow...a real eye-opener!  DRosenbach  ( Talk 19:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Smoking Nicotine
Tried all the possible ways to quit smoking but not beyond a week as i realise the level of nicotine rising in my checst causing congestion, is there any home or other remedy to decreasing the level of nicotine from the body,i know for sure to quit is the best but how to reduce the level?anyone —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.36.6 (talk) 06:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Reduce how much you smoke over a period of time? Going from a daily dose of 20 - 0 is a big drop, but if you try lowering your intake from say 20 - 15 for a week, then 15 - 10 and so on you may find that easier. 08:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk)


 * You question isn't entirely clear? Are you asking if it's possible to reduce your nicotine levels while still smoking the same amount? APL (talk) 12:55, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Although you can only get diagnosis and treatment from a doctor, there are reputable websites which can give information and general advice, such as healthy-india.org and smokefree.nhs.uk AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

ISBN #'s on books
I am buying books for my son who is in college. The math book he needs is ISBN 9780073311821. I bought one on ebay and on the receipt it says the ISBN of that book is ISBN 9780072451078. The book looks identical but was published in different years. 2004 & 2007. Can my son use the book I bought or do I have to buy another one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.156.105.208 (talk) 09:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When you say that the books look identical, are you just referring to the covers or the actual content? The ISBN is no help, you have to look at the edition information at the beginning of the book. I'm unclear as to whether you've bought the 2004 or the 2007 one off of eBay, though.   It's also not clear to me whether the one your son needs is the 2004 or the 2007.  If you've got the 2007 one then you should be fine since that is obviously the most recent edition.  If you've got the 2004 one then there might have been some changes between that one and the 2007 one that your son might need for his course.  Not that maths is a particularly fast-moving discipline, especially at college level. --Richardrj talkemail 09:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of linking the second ISBN code you cited. Both books are 840 pages in length, and I tend to think the substantive content will be the same. However the more recent book comes with something called "MathZone" which I understand to be an online resource providing tests & exercises which the user can choose to take part in. (Compare and ). Unless he specifically needs access to MathZone, then the book will be fine. Check with him? --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a kid in college. I know where you're coming from.  The problem is that the people who teach the courses are very often the same people who write the text books.  Both they, and the publishers, are very interested in getting kids to buy new books rather than going to the college used-book store and buying copies from the previous year's students.  Hence the books get updated FAR more often than could possibly be justified.  However, one of the things they often change with new revisions is the example problems, tests and exercises.  This means that if the tutor says "I want everyone to do the examples at the end of chapter 4 for homework" - then an outdated book will result in your kid doing the wrong problems and getting a zero on the work.  This annoys me more than I have words to express that annoyance!  The answer is for he/she to find someone with the "correct" version of the book and to make sure that the example problems are the same whenever homework is given based on the book.  SteveBaker (talk) 11:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As Steve says, the "old" book probably has different page numbers, homework assignments, etc. It's a definite racket. But there's no easy way out of it, other than elaborate "find the differences and make a copy of them" games. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It sort of depends on the teacher and the book in question. Many college teachers do not grade or collect homework.  In that case the old book will be fine.  Even if the homework problems have different answers, they will still cover the same information, so it should still be good practice.  If the teacher uses an online homework program like WebAssign (unsolicited plug... From a teachers POV, that is the most awesome utility ever!), then it also won't be a problem, since in that case you'll be using the text mostly as a reference, and that should be fine.  Thirdly, check the book against a newer edition.  Some books are actually just different printings of the same edition, so you may not see any changes, besides, say, correcting spelling mistakes from the earlier edition and stuff like that.  Lastly, if your child is unlucky enough that the actual edition matters for getting the homework turned in and graded, he may be able to get the correct problems from a friend.  See that he gets into a good study group, and he should be able to copy the problems (not the answers; that would be counter productive!) from someone else.  As an aside, I agree totally with SteveBaker.  The textbook industry is a HUGE racket; especially at the college level.  The kinds of changes they make to a book from edition to edition are largely cosmetic, and serve no purpose except to force students to purchase new, expensive books all the time.  I work now as a private chemistry tutor, and the general chemistry texts I use (Brown, LeMay, and Bursten or Zumdahl and Zumdahl) are both about 4-5 editions older than the current round, and the changes are insignificant; other than the answers to the homework problems (same problems, different numbers!  Nice trick, huh!) and the page numbers and things like that, they are largely identical.  -- Jayron  32  14:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * At this point, we should put in a plug for WikiBooks, Wikiversity and the Californian initiative to get free digital textbooks. With the cost of an entire low-end laptop scraping the cost of a SINGLE textbook and things like the Kindle eliminating all of the old excuses about the difficulty of reading stuff off the screen, making margin notes, etc...the paper textbook makers had better wake up and fix their evil ways - or they'll find themselves as obsolete as paper encyclopedias, paper dictionaries and (increasingly) newspapers. SteveBaker (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is possible that a math book author would write new problems for a new edition, but I have seen counterexamples, that the same problem persist, and they only add fluff to make the old edition obsolete, to avoid resale of old copies. It takes time and effort to write and check the homework problems. I once checked an engineering textbook from the 7th edition back to the first edition, and found the problems almost unchanged. I then compared the problems to those in the books cited as references, and found that in the first edition many were cribbed with minor changes from someone else's older textbooks. The older book's writers might find it hard to sue for copyright infringement for individual problems, because they probably cribbed them from yet older books. Edison (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's a maths textbook, it's very difficult to demonstrate copyright infringement with problem questions unless they are exact, word-for-word copies. See University of London Press Ltd v University Tutorial Press Ltd [1916].
 * I'm making an unqualified presumption that English IP law is applicable in your jurisdiction. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Waking up
As of now it takes me 30 mins (exaggeration) to wake up in the morning. What are some tips to help me to wake up faster? Tips 1. Alarm clock Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

13:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk)
 * 2. Turn a light on as soon as you wake-up (I find it much easier to wake up in a well-lit room than a dark room
 * 3. Have a drink of water
 * 4. Clear the 'sleep' from your eyes
 * 5. Find a partner that's good at making you wake up (my partner is particularly)
 * 6. Have a reason to get up (my working 'flexible' hours makes it hard to get up but if i have a meeting I have to get in for I always get up in time)

Any more?Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Have an alarm clock programmed to yell "FIRE!" If that doesn't get you out of bed in a hurry, nothing will. Here's another tip I just learned recently. It seems that sleep cycles have some impact on our ability to wake up easily, especially when "forced" to wake up. Try setting your alarm clock such that your sleep time turns out to be something-and-a-half, rather than a full hour. P.S. That's not medical advice, that's just personal experience. Your results may vary. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I use the alarm on my mobile phone and leave the phone just outside the room door so it's close enough to drive me crazy and far enough that I'm forced out of bed to put it off. N.B. I live alone and the phone seldom rings at night. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Any more?Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I've found that cutting my caffeine to basically nothing has helped quite a lot with waking up. Anecdotal, I know. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No one has mentioned the obvious: Go to bed earlier...-- Jayron  32  14:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't as from my experience going to bed earlier makes no difference - that said it's worth a try! 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Get someone to throw a bucket of cold water over you. That should do the trick! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.14.110 (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Go to bed with the curtains drawn back, so that the room is light when you wake up. --Richardrj talkemail 15:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends on the time he has to get up though, in some places it is dark a long time in the winter. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop exaggerating and you'll get up sooner. Seriously though, sounds like willpower might do the trick. Juliankaufman (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Have a look at Circadian rhythm, Circadian rhythm sleep disorder, and Light therapy. For example, you might try putting a bedside light on a timer, so it switches on half an hour or so before your alarm. It will alert your brain and body that it is "dawn" and time to begin rousing you from the depths of slumber. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I do that very thing, and it does make a difference, although the "click" of the timer coming on can do it by itself, if I'm at the top end of a sleep cycle. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the problem that the alarm is not loud enough to wake you up, or you ignore it, or turn it off an go back to sleep? If the job or taking an exam matters to a person, I expect that he will find it easy to get up as soon as the alarm wakes him. I've seen people who turn off the alarm, or yell at the person telling them to get up to go away. Someone not getting up when the alarm is going off seems like it might be a passive aggressive refusal to satisfy the demands of the job, the school, the chores or whatever else needs doing. I have personally found that avoiding PM caffeine and going to bed earlier make it easier to get up. In my case, there are certainly points in the sleep cycle where the sleep is more shallow than others, and times when it takes quite a racket to wake me. Edison (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * When I last had a hard deadline for waking up, I set up the alarm clock to wake me up earlier. I got to enjoy my slow process of getting up, and still made it in time. (Well, at least sometimes I did. (Ok, I was so famous for missing the morning meeting they got me an alarm clock for a present when I left the company.)) 62.78.198.48 (talk) 16:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you leave voluntarily? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * OR: Check your diet. If you're getting through the day on a high sugar diet, you'll wake up with v.low blood sugar levels, which manifests in a somewhat disorientated start to the day. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bogus medical advice alert: depending on the person's ability to metabolize carbohydrates, a "high sugar diet" might leave the blood sugar quite high in the morning. See Diabetes. Edison (talk) 03:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also consumption of large quantities of alchohol the night before is not going to help get you going in the morning. See Hangover.  Googlemeister (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In my (vast, well back in the day) experience of consuming large quantities of alcohol I could go to bed at 4pm after Clubbing (not the seal kind) and then I could guarantee 100% that I would be awake at 7am the next morning, bright-eyed, unable to sleep, essentially fully awake (and doubtlessly still drunk). I'd be fine, then by mid-afternoon then i'd be tired, lethargic and basically worthless to the world for the rest of the day (unless of course it was a 2-day session in which case I had to 'man up' and do it all again - such is a young man's life). ny156uk (talk) 20:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

4pm to 7am. . . 15 hours usually does it for me, too. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * 8 hours of coffee, 8 hours of alcohol, sleep a bit, repeat. (Given as humor, not as medical advice). Edison (talk) 03:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Get in the shower as soon as you wake up. 90.208.66.97 (talk) 07:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The OP asks for tips and WP:OR has flown out the window. I suggest:
 * Re #5, having a partner who is good at getting one up can encourage a fellow to stay in bed for another 30 minutes.
 * I use a clock radio to wake me in time to hear the BBC World Service news. After that I feel confident to face the world. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't LIKE waking up suddenly - the fix for this is easy - have two alarm clocks - set the first clock to 30 minutes before you've got to get up. When the first alarm sounds, you can kinda gently wake - roll over, snuggle a bit, get some more Zzzz's - and by the time the second one goes off, you'll be ready to hit the streets.  Just make sure the two alarms sound REALLY different!  The other thing I found that works (for me) is that voices wake me up better than annoying noises or music.  I could easily imagine solid evolutionary brain-science reasons for this - so perhaps that's something that's true for everyone.  Hence, get a clock-radio and tune it to a talk-radio station.  For a long time, I had a really effective talking alarm clock that spoke the time to you with increasing degrees of urgency:  "The time is blah-blah"..."The time is now blah-plah+5 WAKE UP!"..."The time is now blah-blah+10 YOU ARE LATE!" and so on.  Sadly, my wife threw that one across the room and it doesn't work anymore. :-(   If you are one of those people who manages to turn the alarm off while still asleep - you probably need a Clocky! SteveBaker (talk) 14:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There are alarm clocks which throw themselves off of their place by your bed and tumble onto the floor so you have to go looking for them. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

What the OP has described is a sympton of caffeine addiction. Give up tea and coffee and after a bad few days or weeks you will wake up instantly feeling alert and refreshed. 89.240.57.97 (talk) 00:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Careful, that could be construed as medical advice. Googlemeister (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Map with coordinates
There are loads of maps available on the Internet, but I still haven't found one that shows the coordinates. There is Shadedrelief, which gives the coordinates for the location of the mousepointer (plus some other nice features), but what I want is lines over the map for the altitude and longitude. I assume that maps are put together using those coordinates, so I'm surprised that they are never shown. Or is there a map-site that does give them? DirkvdM (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * NOAA radar maps have that.Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean this? That's only the US, and I see no coordinate lines. DirkvdM (talk) 13:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but if you go into a specific areas map, ie go to type in 76109 into zipcode search, and click on the radar on that page, scrool down to the bottom, and it has lat, long on there. Just drag your mouse over the map to get it.Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't see how this will show me anything outside the US. DirkvdM (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just search Google for "world map latitude longitude" does that help?Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 14:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Did you find anything like that? Not surprisingly, it only gives world maps, and I would like a little more detail, to put it mildly. :) Dropping 'world' from the query doesn't help either. DirkvdM (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Multimap provides coordinates for any point that you choose to centre the map on. It's not quite what you want - no lines on the map, but an excellent statement of what the coords are for any chosen point. You'll find the coords in the bottom right side of the page. Google does the same, but in a more obscure way, embedded within the "link" url. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:49, 8 September 2009 (UT
 * Yes, I knew about the Google Maps feature, which is way too complicated to be practical. And Multimap does does the same as Shadedrelief, but uses way too smal a map and isn't very handy in several other ways. Thanks for the input, though. DirkvdM (talk) 11:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Iconic image
I have been looking for the iconic image - The image consists of English HQ or command female pushing forces around a giant map table, i have tryed all sorts of wording but to no joy any ideas?Chromagnum (talk) 13:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This is shown in the film Battle of Britain, with WAAFs pushing markers around the board. Those search terms should help you - I found this which has a small image, but I'm sure you'll find many more. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 13:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "RAF operations room" seems like the right search term. I like their special croupier's rakes, they give an air of gambling to the whole thing. 213.122.36.227 (talk) 14:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There are similar scenes in the rather well known film Sink the Bismarck! Deor (talk) 15:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have time to look for images online, but they have one of those rooms at the avaiation/war museum in Duxford. Maybe that will help someone find one.  --Anon, 22:28 UTC, September 8, 2009.

If it helps you narrow your image search, these are the names of the women's branches or auxiliaries of the British armed forces during World War II: So, for example, a picture caption might refer to Wrens moving markers around a map or table.—— Shakescene (talk) 04:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.) — Army (my mother served in the ATS)
 * Women's Royal Naval Service (WRNS or Wrens) — Royal Navy
 * Women's Royal Air Force (WRAF) — Royal Air Force


 * Try   DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I've always known the table they work on as a "Shuffleboard".Googling that(plus WWII) got me several hits..hotclaws 17:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Population of America
what is the current population of America? What percentage of this population comprises the work force? what percentage of all the jobs have been lost since 911? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.53.222.64 (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 59.2; I don't understand the question. --Sean 16:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The US only does a complete count once every 10 years, so our most recent census data is for 2000 when the US population was 281,421,906. This number is estimated to now be 307,340,000.  I do not have information to address the other 2 questions at this time.  Googlemeister (talk) 18:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The New Jersey Department of Labor projects that the 2009 workforce of the US is approximately 156 million. Based on the estimate above, that's 51% of the total US population.  As for unemployment, the US measured 4.7% in September 2001 versus 9.7% today.  Thus, unemployment has more than doubled since the September 11 terrorist attacks, and the total number of jobs lost is a slightly higher proportion, since the workforce has presumably grown in size since then. &mdash; Lomn 19:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Presumably that rise in unemployment is primarily due to the current recession and has nothing to do with 9/11. --Tango (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The rise in the workforce size means fewer jobs have been lost, not more, than is indicated by the unemployment rate. For example, if the workforce has grown by 10% then there are more jobs now than then, even if the unemployment rate is higher.. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Many people will have lost their jobs, but gotten new ones. The  unemployment rate alone doesn't account for this. APL (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The Bureau of Labor Statistics measures the size of the US labor force. Here is a link to their figures for August 2009: . The total labor force was 154,577,000. --Xuxl (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * @DJ: By 'workforce' do you mean 'those available for work, either working or not' or do you mean 'those working'? If the former, the 'workforce' would have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the number of jobs available (whether taken or not). Similarly, if the latter, the 'workforce' would have no bearing whatsoever on the number of jobs available (whether taken or not). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The given link defines "workforce" as "employed + unemployed". "Employed" is obvious, and they define "unemployed" as those who have searched for work in the past month.  --Sean 20:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The definition Toto cites is the one I'm using. I'm also assuming that "jobs lost" is a net change, i.e. the reduction in the total number of jobs. My point is that an increase in unemployment rate can occur if the number of jobs increases (i.e. no jobs lost) but the total workforce increases faster. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That makes more sense. Sorry to pick you up on that, DJ. It's not something I normally do, but your original post didn't seem clear enough (and in fact, didn't quite mean to me what you have just said now). Thanks for the clarification. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

July 2009 data: population estimate 307.226 million; labor force 154.504 mn; civilian employment 140.041 mn. The employment figure is 3.195 million more than in September 2001, an increase of 2.3%. Most important to the current data is the fact that we’re in the worst global economic slump since the 1930s. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the United States was even around back in 911. 194.100.223.164 (talk) 16:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The territory (as in the land itself) was, but I don't think the natives recorded any employment statistics. Googlemeister (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia in Other Languages
Wikipedia won't let me login as myself on the Japanese Wikipedia. Do I need to create a completely new username and profile for every language I wish to visit? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 19:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * (This is really a helpdesk question) No, single-sign-on should allow you to sign in with your en.wikipedia login. I suspect that this may mean that someone may already have created a KageTora account there. If that's true (check to see what "your" contribs are there) you may be a able to usurp the account (if it's done only trivial things). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 19:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but when I try to login to Japanese Wikipedia using my own username, I get a message in Japanese saying that my username (when written with the two capital letters in it) does not exist. When written in all lower case letters, it just says my password is incorrect - leading me to believe there is a user with that name (in lower case). It seems that I can't login as myself. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * And for the WP link about this, see Help:Unified login  Dismas |(talk) 20:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's starting to get silly, now. When I try to login it says the username doesn't exist, but when I try to make the account, it says the username is already taken. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Have a look at your preferences/"Manage your global account" and see if the ja Wikipedia is on the list (also I think this belongs on the help desk or something, oh well). --antilivedT 01:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I clicked on 'Internationalization' and ended up with English Wikipedia in Japanese, not the Japanese Wikipedia. As for "Manage your global account", ja Wikipedia is not there, but de Wikipedia is, for some reason. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The Unified Login system is a bit complicated and confusing. (Check out that link from Dismas.) Originally the wikis had their own logins. Then a unified wikimedia-wide login system was introduced that would allow you to log into all the wikipedias. However, since it was introduced after the fact, there are collisions. It can only work properly if someone hasn't already taken your name. APL (talk) 13:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't speak Japanese and I am not strong in the single-signon-fu, but I suspect that since the account name kagetora exists on jawiki, you won't be able to create (or use) the account name KageTora there. (The account creation system doesn't allow too-similar names to be created, which rules out account names which differ only in case.)  The login screen, meanwhile, is case-sensitive, which means that KageTora really doesn't exist on jawiki.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I'm pretty sure that's the problem. In fact, if you go to we find KageTora exists on en and de and  Kagetora exists on en and ja. Notably the en and ja Kagetora ones were created after KageTora. My guess is you've created all these accounts but simply forgot. As ToAT says, and mentioned in Username policy (but likely applies to all wikimedia projects) too similar usernames can't be created by ordinary users, I presume Kagetora on en was created before this was implemented (on Ja it's irrelevant since it was before SUL). You may want to try logging on to Kagetora on en and ja with passwords you think it may be or try the forgot password function. If the Ja account belongs to you and you are able to demonstrate it, it should be possible to request a rename and merge. Merging the de one may already be possible. Even if you can't find a way to access these accounts, merging should be easy since none of the other accounts have any contributions. I know in en it's easy to request an usurpation if the other account has no contributions and you do have sufficient contributions. De and Ja will likely be similar particularly when it comes to SUL issues. (Technically an usurpation probably isn't necessary for Ja, you just need an admin to create an account but to avoid future issues I would recommend it.) In any case, you will need to request help with this, as outlined in Help:Unified login. BTW, while you may not have to do anything with the En Kagetora, but you may want to request a rename to prevent future issues (e.g. accidentally logging into the wrong account). I don't believe you can merge multiple accounts on the same wiki. Note that once SUL is active, an account will automatically be created at any other wikimedia project you visit while logged in, so don't be surprised by that (take a look at ). You can probably disable this somehow if you don't want it. Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)