Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 April 10

= April 10 =

rigoletto concertina
I picked one of these rigoletto concertina up the other day anyone know the history of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.140.117.169 (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you tried looking at the WP article concertina which contains a paragraph about the history of the instrument. Richard Avery (talk) 07:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Continental Divide in the Eisenhower Tunnel
Does anyone know if there's a sign marking the Continental Divide in the middle of the Eisenhower Tunnel? I've never been closer than the Loveland Pass, and I don't have all night to use Street View through the tunnel; please don't bother doing it yourself just to answer this question. Nyttend (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

This youtube video is someone driving through the tunnel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNWur19vjBk) maybe that'll be a quicker way for you to find out? ny156uk (talk) 08:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I've driven through it before and I don't remember any sign. But I wasn't looking, and it's possible that they've added one too. PvsKllKsVp (talk) 21:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This may be a tad nitpicky, but isn't the continental divide on top of the mountain? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the location where the road passes under it could still be marked. I also don't recall seeing such a sign when I've driven through there, but that wasn't any time recently.  --Anonymous, 22:13 UTC, April 10, 2010.
 * Thanks for the video; it's definitely faster than Street View. Yes, the Divide is on top of the mountain (picture), but I was asking about a sign underneath, as Anonymous suggested.  I went to the Divide a year ago (my only time that far west :-), so now I'm quite glad that my friends agreed to go up to the Loveland Pass instead of through the tunnel :-)  Nyttend (talk) 01:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Creative Industry/Engineering boundary
Is there a clear boundary between creative product design and product engineering? Im assuming that the creative industry use market research etc to come up with new concepts for products while the engineering industry turns concept into reality. Thanks. Clover345 (talk) 11:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The creative people can design something elegant looking that won't work at all, then the engineers design something functional, but butt-ugly. Eventually they compromise and come up with a reasonable product. StuRat (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no really clear line between functions whilst a new idea is being thrashed out. Obviously each has its own speciality, but separation occurs after the proposal is operational. i.e. There is no point designing a brilliant campaign if the product specs are not known. Equally it is silly to produce a super product and then discover there is no market. So, wherever the concept originates it has to be a team effort to get it successfully on to the market. And, incidentally, there should not be a compromise. This suggests that some factors are given up in return for others. The whole new product development process should be one of co-operation.Froggie34 (talk) 13:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It's totally going to depend on the industry. Take the car industry, for example - the creative folks (mostly) make non-functional (and typically, impractical) "concept cars" - which are either ignored or used only to 'inspire' the actual product.  To contrast that - look at the video game business (which is what I do), and the creative and engineering people are completely working together every step of the way. SteveBaker (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Lost contacts
Most of my friends are contacts that I know exclusively online...via Wikipedia, online games, random introductions...It has occurred to me a few times that any of them could die and I'd never find out. Or...Would it be possible for me to find out if they'd died? How much information would I need, and what would I need to do? Vimescarrot (talk) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If you knew their real names and their cities you could either check obituary records or contact their local coroners. Other than that, not a whole lot. Wikipedia does have a page on Deceased Wikipedians, but it is certainly incomplete. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If they are from the U.S., and you know their names and they are distinct, or your know their names and locations, you can use the social security death index.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks...How often/when does the social security death index get updated? Vimescarrot (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And is there an equivalent for the U.K. and other countries? Vimescarrot (talk) 17:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no idea and no idea. I will say that names come up fairly quickly after deaths though, in my experience.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. Cheers. This should come in useful. *bookmarked* Vimescarrot (talk) 09:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This happened to me last year, there was a Wikipedia editor who I used to chat with on a fairly regular basis. One day her contributions just stopped, with no indication that she was leaving the project or anything.  I've often wondered if she just stopped editing for some reason or if something serious happened to her.  No way of knowing. --Richardrj talkemail 08:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I knew someone whose brother apparently looked through his computer history and posted a message to the forums he moderated. Obviously someone's social networking (e.g. Facebook) profile is likely to show you if they've died. This Guardian article discusses the problem of lingering profiles and mentions one possible way for your contacts to be informed if you died. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Heidi Illustrator William Sharp
I would like to find biographical information about the particular William Sharp who illustrated the 1945 Grosset & Dunlap Illustrated Junior Library edition of "Heidi" by Johanna Spyri. I have this book,(given to me on my 10th birthday in 1945). Your article about "Heidi" shows an illustration that does not match the style of the art work in my copy of the book. Apparently yours is the original book and mine is a later edition. "AskArt" online research information includes four persons by the name William Sharp, but it is unclear, and seemingly unlikely, from the art examples provided, whether any of the four is in fact the illustrator of the book I have. Sites providing information about Grosset & Dunlap, Inc. are not helpful because that company has devolved into a mass-market paperback business, apparently with no archives of the company's earlier publications. 98.248.63.139 (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I did a few searches for him at a newspaper archives site (subscription required) and was able to confirm that he (this William Sharp) also illustrated a book called Five Little Peppers and How They Grew but nothing else. Maybe you or someone can run with that cross-referencing detail to find more.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 17:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This site http://www.artfacts.net/en/artist/william-sharp-125751/profile.html#Biography (subscription required) seems to have a biography. All that can be read without it is that he was born in 1900 in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in Lemberg (now Ukraine), left Europe in the era of the Third Reich and died in 1961 in Forest Hills, New York City.  Apart from illustrating childrens books he seems to have developed a sharp pen for the social, racial and political reality of the Cold War period.  The Queens Museum in NY seems to hold a collection, so maybe you can contact them for help.  --91.113.80.216 (talk) 21:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Oops, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A used-book search turns up (along with some false hits) other books that he illustrated, mainly in the 1940s, including the Heritage Press edition of Rousseau's Confessions and A Treasury of Stephen Foster. Deor (talk) 21:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This site http://lambiek.net/artists/s/sharp_william.htm has a very short biography (studied art in Lemberg, worked in Berlin, left Nazi Germany in 1934, etc). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

How to catch a wabbit
I want to know how to catch a rabbit with household items. I can't be doing stuff like buying guns, professional traps, or other things not normally found in a household. I don't want to wait in hiding for a long time or have to dig holes or anything like that. So basically I'm looking for a trap I can build without a lot of time spent out of household items. And no, to those "funny people" (wo)manning this desk, the answer "Lie in the grass and make carrot noises" is not helpful. Thanks 68.248.227.64 (talk) 17:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, dat always works on me, Doc! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, what "rabbit-proof" items do you have in your home that could be used to hold the rabbit ? A milk crate might work, so you could set it up with some bait under it and a stick holding it up, tied to a string.  Then wait and watch and pull the string when he goes under it.  You'd then need to run out and put some weight on it before he can get a paw under the edge and lift the crate enough to escape.  Putting a car floor mat under it would also prevent him from digging his way out.  However, what do you plan to do with the rabbit ?  If you plan to take it out to the woods and release it, for example, then you need some way to seal off the bottom better, during transport. StuRat (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * My cat catches rabbits. The last one he caught he brought into the house, unscathed if a little nervous, and released him in the junk room. When I eventually found said bunny, it was a piece of cake to pick him up by the scruff of his neck and put him in a shoe box. I held it closed while I walked to the woods at the end of the school yard and released him there. However, if you'd like to eat the rabbit, may I recommend a piece of wire bent into a noose and placed at bunny head height along the rabbit run?--TammyMoet (talk) 19:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Say I wanted to keep the rabbit as a pet, or eat it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.248.227.64 (talk) 19:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Or both Lemon martini (talk) 19:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, if you want to keep it, you'll need a cage. Unless you already have one at home, you'd better buy one first, so your not stuck watching a rabbit under a milk crate.  You could also use some types of cages as traps, like ones that have doors which slide up and down. StuRat (talk) 20:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * just as an aside: wild rabbits are not quite as lovable as the over-bred, super-tame decorative rabbits you get in pet stores. they are wild rodents, and can be a bit bad-tempered.  -- Ludwigs 2  20:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not to say that the domestic rabbit is always peaceful; I had a Black Satin buck from shortly after his weaning until his death, and he was rather unpersonable — try to coax him out of the cage (without hurting him) and he'd scratch painfully, and the only time he ever got out by himself, he returned happily as soon as he'd eaten a bit of grass less than one rabbit length away from the door of the cage. Nyttend (talk) 01:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

A student of Latin was flattered when his companions invited him to join their rabbit hunt. As the party lay in hiding a rabbit appeared and the student shouted Illic a lepus!. His companions chided him for frightening the rabbit away but the student protested "How could I have known the rabbit understood Latin?". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Either that student was blonde or named Ole. Or both. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rabbits arent rodents their lagomorphs :). But doesn't waiting to pull a string when a rabbit enters a trap count as waiting? I think I'd be there for a while before a rabbit came to sniff the bait. 68.248.227.64 (talk) 00:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Soft drink can rabbit trap --203.22.236.14 (talk) 01:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That link relates the story of a redneck kid who kills tame rabbits at his college and ends up with 28 bloody pelts in his dorm room. This behavior resulted in a visit from the cops, which was somehow a surprise to him, but certainly not to me. StuRat (talk) 04:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Assuming you don't want a live rabbit - Snare trap says that a snare is by far the simplest - and the most effective. All you need is a length of thin, flexible wire. SteveBaker (talk) 02:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Dust bunnys can of course be easier to catch. Bus stop (talk) 03:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know if I should tell you this as its probably a horrible way for a rabbit to die, but you could make a snare from a piece of wire, such as picture wire. The rabbit is held in terror with the snare cutting into it until you find it and kill it. Snares are also bad because they can catch other animals, perhaps foxes or cats, and if caught by a limb then they may lose the limb. 84.13.169.129 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is somewhat touched on by SB already but also since the OP seems to have rather diverse plans on what to do with the rabbit this may not be a good idea. Ignoring the cruelty which you mentioned and possible illegality (which you didn't but the article discusses), this also may not be a good idea if the OP wants the rabbit for a pet. Nil Einne (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be cruel to keep a wild rabbit in captivity, unless you have a very large enclosure. If you must, best to buy a domesticated rabbit that has been in captivity from birth. And, given the size of rabbits and their natural prediliction to run about, keeping them in the average rabbit hutch seems cruel too. 78.149.114.89 (talk) 19:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

questions and answers
why can't a browser give a direct, plain, English answer to a plain English question? Are we waiting for an artificial inteligence to emerge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.89.112 (talk) 18:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Given the trouble that many of us humans at ref desk have interpreting questions from users, it shouldn't surprise you that a machine would have even more trouble figuring it out. Sometimes you can go into google and type a simple question and it might take you to the right place(s), or at least get you in the ballpark so that you can do narrower searches. Do you have an example of a question you're wanting to ask the browser? Or is this just a general observation? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the problem is that most people aren't at all clear when they ask a question. Consider your Q, which is better than most, but still not perfect.  You didn't capitalize the first letter, which may confuse an AI looking for the start of the sentence.  You used the wrong term, "browser", instead of "search engine".  You also spelled "intelligence" wrong.  Now a human has no problem figuring out what you meant, in this case, but an AI might.  Ask Jeeves, now Ask.com, did try that approach, but they had limited success.  StuRat (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * See http://www.google.com/help/features.html. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Wolfram Alpha thinks it can... --Belchman (talk) 18:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should turn over some of the crazier questions here to that program and see what it can come up with. Even keeping it simple, I wonder what it would do with Bill Cosby's question, "Why Is There Air?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Wolfram Alpha was prepared for that one, including Cosby reference! see here ---Sluzzelin talk  20:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes and no. The original context was Cosby's girlfriend, a philosophy major, asking the question. It wasn't really about the scientific origin of molecules. It was about the great "whys" of the universe, or whatever. It was also Cobsy being silly. The next question to ask would be, "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck..." and see if they have a canned answer or if they "think about it". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I asked it, "Who will win the pennant in 2010?" and stumped it. Back to the ol' drawing board! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It couldn't handle the bunny question above either. --203.22.236.14 (talk) 01:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe I am using it incorrectly, but it was unable to supply the answer to "Which football team won Superbowl XVIII?" It was however able to provide an answer to the woodchuck question. Googlemeister (talk) 16:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Now that was entertaining...Certain search engines have predictive capabilities-if a question has already been answered,it assumes you will want to go to it again and so will make suggestions. I typed in 'Why is there air?'-on having reached 'Why is there a' it gave me a helpful list of possible alternatives.Top was 'Why is there a dead Pakistani on my couch'. Go on try it :) And no,I haven't a clue... Lemon martini (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Artificial intelligence research used to be more oriented towards recreating human levels of intelligence (which is necessary to be able to answer questions in general). Around the time of the first AI winter, it became clear that, for the foreseeable future, no real progress can be made towards that. Currently research in those areas is focused on more limited tasks. Paul (Stansifer) 21:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The BBC published a story on this on the day before this question: Why machines do not understand human speech. They don't spend much time asnwering their own question before opting instead to big up some Palo Alto Research Centre work. Still. It's almost apropos. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Until machines become smart enough to "read between the lines", as humans do, they will remain stupid machines. Decades ago, a teacher told us that humans were smart, slow and inaccurate; whereas computers were fast, accurate, and stupid. It remains ever thus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * See http://www.answers.com/. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Why do horses get more jittery and unruly after eating oat bran than after wheat bran?
A woman who owns a stable and has been taking care of 15 horses for about two years (And thus, to me, seems fairly experienced), she told me that the horses do get noticeably more jittery and unruly after eating oat bran than after eating wheat bran.
 * 1) Have you seen this claim, or something similar, stated as a fact in any authoritative book about horses?
 * 2) Have you yourself experienced something like this, or something similar, about (your) horse(s)?If so, then how, by what words, would you describe the effect of oat bran on a horse?

I intend to search, in scientific research reports, to find out the reason why behind this phenomenon. Therefore I need as many keywords, facts and observations as possible.Could you please help me? --Seren-dipper (talk) 20:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

feel one's oats probably isn't scientifically helpful, but shows that it's a widely observed phenomenon. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 04:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That expression was new to me, and therefore VERY helpful! Thank you! :-) --Seren-dipper (talk) 03:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * uses highstrung, uses hot (also  I think) while  uses heated,  + use fizzy; and [http://www.wowhorses.com/horse-feed-behaviour.html uses hyperactive behaviour.  has relevant discussion and  +  relevant research. Perhaps also  although only very minor. Also while not directly relevant to the question,  and  may be of interest. Also you may want to look into the research of Dr. Paul McGreevy. I have no particular interest in or experience with horses and found these all from the description you provided (well some from 'oats wheat horse' or 'oats wheat horse behaviour' but mostly 'oats horse behaviour' since it appears to be oats in particular that are singled out as the issue) so you probably already have enough to start your research Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes! :-) I now have plenty! Thank you very much! --Seren-dipper (talk) 03:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

One war in the whole 20th century?
I once heard about someone who claimed that instead of stuff like WWII, spanish civil war, korean war etc there was just one war 1914-89. DOes anyone know where I can read more about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.158.90 (talk) 20:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The claim may relate to teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses that the current world era, or "system of things", entered the "last days" in 1914. Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines on the End Times, are explained in detail in their literature. For example, they teach that the Greek word parousia, often translated as 'coming', means 'presence'. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Or more in the mainstream, this or this "The War of the World; 1914-1989" by Niall Fergusson, Allen Lane, 2006. Alansplodge (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah yes this book is what I was looking for, not that Jehovah's Witnesses thing. Thanks to both of you anyway--92.251.158.90 (talk) 22:47, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * See also the short twentieth century. — Kpalion(talk) 08:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Is the airline industry considered part of public transportation?
Is the airline industry considered part of public transportation? We pay fares to ride an airplane and airports are like transit malls. WJetChao (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a small section on the subject within the public transportation article. The wording of it is a little odd, but it seems to suggest that what we consider "public transportation" is schedule-driven; that is, the bus stops, picks up whoever's there, and leaves. It doesn't wait long. You could think of several differences. One is that public transportation as we think of it is unreserved, "first-come, first served". Airline bookings are reserved in advance, whereas bus and commuter train are "show up and board". If that makes sense. So in that sense, AMTRAK would not be "public transportation" either. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * FFS. The whole industry isn't, but scheduled passenger services are clearly well within the definition of Public transport. See p1 & p2 in that article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not all busses are show-up-and-board; Greyhound encourages buying well in advance, and you pay far more for a ticket if you buy for that day instead of buying a week or two ahead of time. Nyttend (talk) 01:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Greyhound would not fit the standard definition. City busses would. Assuming there really is a standard definition. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Our Public transport article provides a reasonable definition: "a shared passenger transportation service which are available for use by the general public, as distinct from modes such as Taxicab, car pooling which are not shared by strangers without private arrangement." In what way would Greyhound not fit that bill? And then the article provides sections on Airlines, and Buses and coaches. There's no assertion that public transport = turn up & go, contrary to the repeated direction of your assertions. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going by what the lead has to say about it, whose examples all seem to be the "turn up and go" variety. Yet later on it talks about airlines and such. So don't blame me for the article being unclear and self-contradictory. I am at this point uncertain as to just what the term "public transportation" is supposed to mean. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh are we reading the same article? (Quick check in the history suggests it hasn't changed much.) From the lead (second and third paragraph):
 * Public transport modes include buses, Ferrys, trams and trains and 'rapid transit' (metro/subways/undergrounds etc). Intercity public transport is dominated by airlines, coaches, and intercity rail. high-speed rail networks are being developed in a many parts of the world.
 * Most public transport runs to a scheduled timetable with the most frequent services running to a headway. Share taxi offers on-demand services in many parts of the world and some services will wait until the vehicle is full before it starts. Paratransit is sometimes used in areas of low-demand and for people who need a door-to-door service.[1]
 * How exactly does this imply that it all are the turn up and go variety? Most of the examples for intercity transport are clearly not the turn up and go variety. Even in the first sentence of that paragraph, buses, ferries and trains are not always the 'turn up and go' variety. Note also key words like 'include', 'most' etc.
 * The article is no FA but the lead seems decent enough other then some minor issues (like the capitalisation of ferrys and the non capitalisation of high speed which I've fixed). It first gives a resonable definition of what public transportation is that Tagihsimon has already mentioned. It then goes into more details, including giving examples.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 06:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Common carrier is a more precisely defined term which the OP may be interested in. FiggyBee (talk) 01:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)