Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 February 21

= February 21 =

Double Snap "Clap"
What is it called when you double snap your fingers (snap once with the fingers in each hand in succession), then "clap" an open fist into the palm of the hand? I always do this and I'd love to know if it ever had a name. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  01:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Like this? (video) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * No... it's hard to explain. Snap your left fingers once, then snap your right fingers once, then, with your right hand balled into a fist (after snapping), slap the right hand fist into the left hand's open palm. Do this is rapid succession. snapsnap-pop, at a rate much higher than Queen's boom-boom-clap. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  01:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If I'm correctly reading what the OP is saying: It's not that you're just putting your fist into your palm.  The balled up fist (which is actually open just a bit, more of a finger curl than a tight fist) is hit against the palm so that the index finger and thumb are what is hitting the palm.  The hollow of the curled fingers makes a sort of hollow pop noise when it's hit against the palm.  And to answer the question, I don't know what it's called but I think I remember the Three Stooges doing it.  That's the only pop culture reference that I can think of where this is performed.  Dismas |(talk) 04:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting, you're not the first one to mention the Three Stooges, but seeing it mentioned here (wiser people), I'm going to have to look into that further. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  11:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If I'm interpreting this correctly, it's what Christopher Walken does, followed by a double-handed pistol gesture, in Blast from the Past (film). Not sure it has an official (or even widely recognized) name. Kingsfold (talk) 14:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * That may be it! No access to the film, but you can see him doing it here, in the trailer. Really quick example, but definitely a good visual. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  17:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

English Names
What are the english words (CA/US/UK/AU) for these frames/mounts/cradles carried on the tail to strip on bigger things, with no basket or container?

--Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 08:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Pictures outside of WP:
 * (2 pic-changing-gif) Model-Airplane
 * Work in the woods
 * Are these words also for these Baby-XY? 1, 2, 3, 4, Many
 * And are the words also for these for cable/cord-frames? (Mostly in military, Field telephone) 1, 2, 3.1, 3.2


 * Carried on the tail of what? Are they holsters? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia (not a reliable source) calls this a back frame but that's not in the OED. No doubt there are local terms, such as the reff mentioned on that page. The search continues.....--Shantavira|feed me 10:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Line break added --antilivedT 11:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would call them carrying frames. 78.146.74.227 (talk) 12:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would call them pack frames, as does my old Scout Handbook, fifth edition, published by the Scout Association in 1980. DuncanHill (talk) 19:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I called them "pack frames" back in the 60s, and I could find a reference if I could find one of my old Colin Fletcher books. I would call the German gadget in the first reference a "model-airplane carrier".  PhGustaf (talk) 19:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia (a favourite source) refers to backpack, knapsack, rucksack Haversack, pack frame, back frame, and bodypack. I like back rack. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, carried by a backpacker, I would call it a pack frame. Pulled by a person, I would call it something else... a sled lol. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  01:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would call it a papoose but apparently that is just for carrying children. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you. pack frame, back rack are wonderful. Backpack, knapsack, rucksack, haversack ar not so clear, beceause they schould or could have a "sack". --Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 14:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Effectiveness of a Bomb Suit
After watching The Hurt Locker, I started wondering about the effectiveness of the bomb suits worn by EOD technicians in the US military. How effective are they at protecting the wearer against blasts? Are they bullet proof too? Can they, for example, protect the wearer against a claymore mine from 5 m away? Acceptable (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They are highly effective against most effects of an explosion. They will protect the wearer from a large amount of heat, overpressure and fragments, and obviously their reistance to fragments includes bullets. Modern bomb suits will also protect the wearer from any chemical or biolical effects of bombs. However they have limits. I'm sure pretty much any cartridge above the standard full-power rifle cartridges would penetrate them (.50 BMG, .55 Kynoch, 14.5 mm etc would tear them to shreds). I'm sure some large, very high velocity fragments might well penetrate as well, along with shaped charges. Certainly you would still need to ttry to take cover--92.251.162.146 (talk) 22:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The related Bombsuit article or external links there may help. For example PersonalProtectiveEquipment/UXODemining. As for the claymore question, quoting the Website link above "designed to balance mobility and comfort with protection from anti-personnel (AP) blast mines." (my italics). Likely necessary because many IEDs would have anti-deactivation devices or another bomb nearby specifically to 'dissuade' any attempts to disarm them. You will probably find that the exact effectiveness of the suits would only be revealed to customers with need to know.--220.101.28.25 (talk) 13:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think a claymore would probably penetrate a bomb suit. Its fragments are specifically designed to deform into a pointed bullet shape on detonation, and they travel at about 1.3 km a second.--92.251.223.13 (talk) 17:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the common sense answer to this is that bomb suits are generally good things, but anyone who depends on then exclusively and takes no other precautions is likely not long for this world.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Bullets
Are these two pictures at all accurate?

http://images3.hiboox.com/images/0208/calykgl5.jpg

http://images3.hiboox.com/images/0208/q9djm2cp.jpg

And is the second one a blank? Vimescarrot (talk) 11:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * They look reasonably accurate to me. The first is a 9mm parabellum pistol round (with soft point, FMJ and hollowpoint bullets), and the second is a 12 gauge shotgun slug of some description. FiggyBee (talk) 12:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The web address of the manufacturer is on the picture: Sellier & Bellot. There is info in there (in English) about all the different types of ammunition they sell. -- KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 15:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The pictures are too perfect to be real. They are computer rendered images for advertising and not simple photographs. The artist made the bullets resemble shiny phallic Lipsticks of an unlikely colour. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Despite being computer graphics, though, they are quite accurate in the proportions and general look of the real thing. So basically imagine those with less shiny, and you'll know what a real bullet/slug looks like. 24.247.163.175 (talk) 02:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes...The fading, ghostly sections of the bullet made me realise they weren't real. ;) Comparing to the picture found on our article, a shotgun slug is supposed to have more to it than that one Sellier & Bellot are showing... Vimescarrot (talk) 08:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily. The one in the photo is a solid slug with traditionally-constructed wadding, while the Sellier & Bellot one is hollow with a plastic (or "polymer", as the firearms industry likes to call it) wad/sabot. (edit: this one ) FiggyBee (talk) 10:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Snoring dogs
animals:Is it normal for a dog to snore like a human? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.46.140 (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's possible. My Great Pyrenees snores occasionally  If you're concerned about it, you should see a vet.  Dismas |(talk) 14:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if they make a C-PAP for animals? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Many dogs snore, especially the larger breeds. Probably other animals too. Perhaps this should be mentioned in our article on snoring (lest it be considered speciesist).--Shantavira|feed me 16:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Even now the OAC is consulting with their attorney. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "OAC" can mean about 14 different things, only some unlikely. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Organization of American Cats. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I was most disappointed by their website.It was not quite what I was expecting when I received a link to a site with lots of cute young pussies on. *gets coat,leaves rampaging mob chasing him out of RefDesk Lemon martini (talk) 09:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Both my cats snore. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It might be possible to train a dog to accept a C-PAP. With a cat, I think it would be pretty much hopeless. Hang on, the phone's ringing. Uh-oh, it's the OAC's lawyer. Wow, they work fast. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

satphones
What is the net worth of the satellite phone market in India, approximately? What does the sales come up to including government and civilian subscribers? Who are the current providers of network and handsets and what is the future of the demand? What are the new technologies in that field that will make the product more user friendly and popular? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.13.91 (talk) 15:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * When is your homework due? —Tamfang (talk) 17:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The same unsigned IP posted the same questions on 19:46, 14 February 2010. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mouse breeding
I and my friend Sammy are trying to breed mice to sell but, we don't know if our mice are pregnant or not. So far it's the day after we think they mated. not much is different with the female. Then comes the question: How long does it take for them to mate? We think it doesn't take long. So we thought they mated for about a minute or two but, we aren't sure. So we want to know how you can tell if mice are pregnant and, how long it take for them to mate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skittywolf (talk • contribs) 15:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It only takes them a few seconds (as with most animals). .--Shantavira|feed me

And yet their women never complain Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry; if you're sure you've got a male and female you'll soon have lots of baby mice.--Shantavira|feed me 16:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Unless you happen to have a couple of fruity little mice... Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I wonder if mice feel any heartache if you split up couples or families? 89.243.197.22 (talk) 17:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering that the mothers eat the babies if they get stressed out, probably not. Species that reproduce frequently and in large litters generally invest less in the individual young. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Experienced laboratory technicians who work with mice can tell exactly which of the female mice have been mated with.Medical geneticist (talk)

It's the knowing wink in their eye that says I remember you big boy Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are a few references to get you going: Mouse and Mating_plug. Incidentally, you may want to familiarize yourself with the local regulations on commercial rodent breeding. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 17:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

 (Medical geneticist, I removed a space from the beginning of your entry since the resulting formatting was messing up the page layout. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  11:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Are you sure you can make money selling these baby mice? When I was a kid, my sister and I were given pet mice - my parents thought they would avoid the problem of vast numbers of baby mice by carefully getting us two females.  Sadly, both were (evidently) pregnant when they bought them from the pet store - so we soon had TWO litters of teeny-tiny mice to deal with.  As soon as they were weaned, we tried to sell them to the pet store - but they wouldn't take them - not even for $0.00 because (they said) they couldn't be sure that they'd be disease-free and all of that stuff.  In the end, we had to find homes for all of them with friends and such like.  So be 100% sure you have someplace that'll buy these mice before you do this!  Remember, if a pet store needs baby mice to sell, they have a REALLY cheap way to make them! SteveBaker (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the original posters are grimmer than it appears, and they merely have friends who own carnivorous reptiles of various sorts. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In which case, they definitely need to check the local legal situation. --Tango (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the only way to make significant money breeding mice is if you have mice with particularly desirable (and rare) characteristics. --Tango (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Or there are a lot of people with pet snakes living around you. Googlemeister (talk) 17:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No joke. Pet stores around here have both pretty, long-haired, pedigreed pet mice and plain dingy herp-food mice.  The latter are perhaps a quarter of the price. I suppose they don't come with a long-term warranty. . PhGustaf (talk) 22:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Those who have tried to support themselves selling mice in economic hard times have barely eeked out a living. Edison (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And they claim my jokes are cheesy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Twenty or so years ago there was a usenet thread about "Cheeses of Nazareth". PhGustaf (talk) 08:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What a friend we have in cheeses, for blessed are the cheesemakers. Amen.  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   10:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * From "The Gospel According to Brian". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The old expression "Cheese it!" (usually followed by "The cops!") was a euphemistic pop-media way of saying "Jesus!" This was carried a step further in some bit where Ed Wynn was a waiter and someone ordered a cut of meat au gratin, and Wynn yelled to the kitchen, "Cheese it! The chops!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I left two of these 3-Tasten-Maus Microsoft.jpg in the same box together, and you don't want to know what happened. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So...a few weeks later, you ran out of USB ports? SteveBaker (talk) 02:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

hierarchy in catholicism
do we not have a link? alterboy, priest, bishop, cardinal, pope, any missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * See our Catholic Church hierarchy article. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 'alterboy' Hmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 07:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alter Altar boys are pretty much the bus boys of the Catholic church. They don't fit into the hierarchy at all.  They have no powers and are simply there to carry things around.  Dismas |(talk) 11:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find it's spelt "altarboy". --TammyMoet (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * no, he means the other one... FiggyBee (talk) 12:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, no, no! That's the top job - you know altering water into wine, that kind of thing. :-) SteveBaker (talk) 14:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, I got it wrong. It was the middle of the night here...  Yeah, that's it.  I was tired!  Dismas |(talk) 15:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gravy powder - can you get it salt free?
Gravy powder that I've bought here in the UK has lots of salt in it. Is it possible to buy a low-salt or salt-free vegetarian version please? Vegetarian gravy powder is easy to buy in supermarkets such as Sainsbury's, even though its not promoted as being vegetarian.

I'd also be interested in finding out how to make it myself, since it would be just cornflour and some other ingredient. 89.243.197.22 (talk) 17:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tesco's do one for meat-eaters, but I don't know about a veggie one. Making gravy is easier if you eat meat, as you stir cornflour into the fat left from roasting a joint or bird, add the stock from cooking the vegetables and cook for a minute. I suppose vegetarian gravy is basically a white sauce made with vegetable stock. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would presume you could use a conventional vegetarian gravy recipe:, or for example (Our Gravy article offers some other suggestions) - and then maybe you could very gently dry it to make a powder that you could reconstitute.  I suspect that real gravy granules are made by freeze-drying or vacuum dried or something fancy and industrial like that which would be hard to replicate at home.  But if you're going to make the stuff yourself, why not just make a larger batch and freeze it in an ice-cube tray to make a bunch of handy "gravy-cubes" that you could keep in the freezer and zap with a microwave when you need them?  That would keep the flavor and vitamins and stuff much better than drying it out and reconstituting it - and with a reduced salt load, it should freeze pretty good.  I guess though, looking at those three vegetarian recipes I linked to, all three use large amounts of soy sauce - which is pretty salty stuff already.  But you could at least avoid adding more.  SteveBaker (talk) 18:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * According to, there's a low-salt version of their Bisto brand. This is consistent with most US products.  We also have decent low-salt stocks and broths, including vegetarion ones, in boxes, which taste much better than powders.  Try some if they have them over there.  You also might try a health-food store, or one specializing in specialized dietary needs.  Warning: the Bisto site is horribly flashturbated. PhGustaf (talk) 03:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The low salt version is still the equivalent of around 10% salt unfortunately. Surprised to see that they do not have any meat-products in them. They use E150c, caramel, for colouring. 84.13.16.216 (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe that many UK stock products such as Bovril stopped using extracts from carcasses following the BSE scare. Alansplodge (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Is it salt(sodium chloride) that is the problem or just high sodium, which means monosodium glutamate is also a problem? —220.101.28.25 (talk) 17:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Name a well paid and routine job
By well paid I mean €35,000-€50,000

By routine I mean fairly stable working hours, eg 9-5, no getting up in the middle of the night

and explain how a someone leaving secondary school could get into that profession. Thanks!--92.251.162.146 (talk) 21:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Please refrain from telling us what to do. There are more courteous ways of asking questions than your method.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think they were that rude... they said thanks... ╟─TreasuryTag► secretariat ─╢ 22:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about rude, but while the OP did provide some basic clarifications to their question, there are still many missing details. For example the IP provided no details on where they live but the IP looks up to the UK and they're quoting Euro figures. Does this mean they they're willing to work anywhere in the EU? Even so while the EU has some degree of a single market for labour, I believe it's far from complete so the OP's citizenship and residency may come in to it, and the OP provided no details on whether they have any language skills besides English (even with a common market, getting a job when you can't speak the local language is difficult).
 * Also 'leaving secondary school' is very broad. I think it's clear someone leaving with no A or AS level qualifications and perhaps even no O level qualifications (if that's possible) because they failed everything has quite different options from someone leaving with 6 A* A levels.
 * And on a related note, even if the OP doesn't care at all about enjoyment of their job, the areas their they're skilled in will likely come in to it, for example it's no use telling the OP you can get a stable well paid job as a mathematician (completely made up example) if they hate maths and barely passed their O-level maths.
 * Similarly telling the OP, if you get into MIT and come out with a degree and GPA of 4.0 you should be able to get a job that meets your requirements if the OP has little chance of getting into MIT even if they had rich well connected parents and in fact his/her parent's can't afford to financial support him/her anymore.
 * Given the complexities here, I don't think it's surprising careers advice is the sort of thing usual delt usually dealt with in a conversational manner but if the OP really wants help here, IMHO we'd need far more info.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nil Einne do you mean "they ARE willing", "the areas THEY'RE skilled in" and "thing USUALLY DEALT with"? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Cuddlyable3, please stop the grammar nagging. It is a net negative for the Reference Desk.  It doesn't help answer the original posters' questions, which is why we are here.  If you find the nagging irresistible, please nag on the posters' Talk pages so it doesn't lard up the Refdesk.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." is stated on every Edit page. Nil Einne may choose to correct their own errors or ignore them. The former course seems the more respectful to the OP and all. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Nil Einne may choose to correct HIS OR HER own" 71.161.59.15 (talk) 02:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * @71.161.59.15 the Wikipedia article Singular they may reassure you if you worry that "THEIR" cannot serve in place of the 3 words that you post in capitals. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 03:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Complaining about grammar errors here is counterproductive. It has no place on here, particularly when you nagged that person the other day whose first language was obviously not English.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I rarely proofread my responses much and often make mistakes I don't notice (usually they're the kind I am capable of noticing if I take the time). Indeed sometimes I even type the completely wrong word particularly if I'm distracted or thinking of something else but usually notice these. I don't care either way if people point them out when they're unlikely to affect the understanding (as I consider this case). In cases when they may be confusing I'd welcome it if they are pointed out, even to my talk page Nil Einne (talk) 20:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It would also be useful to know if that salary expectation is supposed to be starting salary or eventual salary. If it is starting salary, then there are only a few jobs in that range, mostly in finance (investment banker, actuary, etc.) and they usually involve long hours (at least occasionally). --Tango (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Be a doctor and open your own practice and set your hours to 9-5. Of course the training and residency parts won't satisfy your hours requirements.71.161.59.15 (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * In the United States, master plumbers make pay within your range without attending university. Someone would have to confirm that plumbers' pay in the EU is similar.  To become a plumber in the United States, you need to arrange an apprenticeship, typically through the plumbers' labor union.  You need several years practice after completing an apprenticeship to become a master plumber.  In the United States there is hardly any routine job (by your definition) that pays more than  €25,000 or so right out of secondary school.  Marco polo (talk) 02:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You could try going into IT. If you're into computer games, why not try writing them? Where I live (Warwickshire, UK) the computer games industry is the largest private employer now we've lost the car industry. The pay is worthwhile and life is generally fun. I can't vouch for the hours, though, but you may find that they become less important as your experience changes. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)How to get into it? At a guess you need programming knowledge, and knowledge of gaming and playing games would help. At 16 you might get a job making the tea there! You'd be better off approaching one of the companies involved and enquiring with them. Can't see you having many opportunities without a computer science degree, or BTEC at least. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Games programmers (of which I happen to be one) do not often have regular hours. There is an evil afoot in the industry called "Crunch Time" which (essentially) means mandatory unpaid overtime (or if not mandatory, at least accompanied by a sufficiently large guilt-trip and "team spirit" thing that you need to do it if you want to get ahead in the company).  Some games companies (like the one I happen to work for) workd very hard to avoid "crunch" - but others  positively exploit it to get the job done with fewer staff.  Also, there are ways to get into the game industry that, whilst paying less, require less formal training.  One possibility is to come in via the 'Art' path - becoming a 3D artist.  That's something you could teach yourself - download packages like blender (software) and GIMP for free and just start making 3D models of stuff - or (if you have money to spend) get a copy of Maya (software) and Photoshop.  A third route (that pays very little indeed) is to come in as a game tester.  This sounds like a lot of fun ("woohoo!  I get paid to play video games all day!") - but is in fact a very boring job indeed.  You get to play the same game for maybe 3 years solid.  You have to play the exact same bits of it over and over again for months looking for the weirdest issues - and for probably two out of those three years, it's gonna be crashing on you a lot.  So I don't recommend a long term career as "Game Tester".  However for those with minimal skills & education, it is a way into the industry that might eventually (after many years) lead to story design, level/mission design, etc.   In my experience, only a very tiny percentage of game testers make that leap before they give up and find something more meaningful to do with their lives.  But programming isn't the only route into the games biz (although it's certainly by far the most lucrative - and it pretty much requires either a strong track record of game development or a degree in software engineering or similar).


 * I don't know about the UK - but here in the US, games companies get utterly snowed under with kids calling up to see if there are ways to get into the industry - most simply hang up on those kinds of calls.  When I worked at Midway, we had a large, imposing "biker guy" who sat in the front lobby and fended off enquiries from kids who came to the front door asking this stuff!  One place here in Austin has camoflaged their entire operation so fans of their games can't find their offices!


 * If you're going to be a programmer - get a degree - look online for games programming jobs - apply for them with a resume/CV. Write some OpenSourced games for practice!
 * If you're planning to be an artist - some qualifications wouldn't hurt - but a really solid portfolio, with LOTS of games-related art in it would be the thing to send in on a job application. Don't just make monsters and spaceships - build mundane things too: Trash cans, furniture, houses, etc.  Make them grungy and interesting.  If you know how to make 3D models, you might find a summer internship (possibly for $0.00/hour - but with a way to get some experience and some real "game art" for your portfolio).
 * If you're planning to become a game tester - think about finding another occupation because you won't make anything like the money you're asking for above. If you really want to do it - then just apply for some of the jobs out there and hope you get lucky.  Here in Texas, we probably get 200 applications for every job - which is why it's paid so poorly.
 * There are a few other specialist jobs in the games business - story writer, audio engineer, voice talent, motion-capture actor, AI scripter...but those are about 1% of the total workforce on most projects - and generally the people who get those jobs are already in the games business in one of the three main roles.
 * Then of course we have all of the usual office support roles - IT, HR, etc. Those mainly come from experienced people outside of the games industry.
 * SteveBaker (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It would help narrow things down if you said if you prefer a sitting-down job in a warm office (can be unbearably boring I can tell you) or a physically active often outdoors one (cold in winter, less prestige, usually much longer hours). For a sitting down job then try accountancy, or failing that bookkeeping. For an active job being a gas fitter may do. Pay attention to how much you get paid an hour: the manual jobs usually have long hours. The answer as others have said depends on how much you are prepared to study, and what qualifications you have already. 84.13.16.216 (talk) 12:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Norwegian Air Traffic Controllers of 1-2 years' experience can produce these figures with ease. Your education does not matter much (your ATC education of around 6-8 months is sponsored), but there are some demands for understanding three-dimensional space, and having good and sound reflexes. The standard is perceived to be quite high, and so there's some difficulty in getting through the hole. There might be similar figures for other EU countries' ATCs. 77.18.5.107 (talk) 14:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are in the UK try being a Chartered surveyor, has a mixture of office work and getting out and about, but requires a degree. I suggest contacting the professional body involved (in this case the RICS) and asking how you can become one, and do the same thing for any other professions you may be interested in. 89.243.215.80 (talk) 12:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless you have an exceptional talent (as a footballer for example) you are very unlikely to leave school with a few GCSEs and walk straight into a £30,000+ job. Of course, some jobs can develop into a high paying career after some years toil on the lower rungs of the career ladder.  Graduating from university, will often let you start a few rungs higher up.  Astronaut (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Depending on where you live, police dispatchers and 911 (emergency) operators are often well-paid non-specialists. 63.17.65.39 (talk) 02:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)