Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 July 12

= July 12 =

Can an M82 fire the .50 AE?
Can a Barrett M82 sniper rifle fire the .50 Action Express that was originally designed for the .50 cal Desert Eagle? Acceptable (talk) 03:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Using the Wikipedia articles to compare:

The numbers aren't even close to matching. Looks like you could fit half a dozen AE inside one sniper round. Rmhermen (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * .50 BMG overall length 5.45 in; .50 AE overall length 1.610 in
 * .50 BMG base diameter 0.804 in; .50 AE base diameter 0.547 in
 * .50 BMG bullet weight 52 g; .50 AE bullet weight 21.1 g


 * You should read about the difference between caliber and cartridge (firearms). The problem is, people commonly say things like "this is a 50-caliber" without realizing that they've not said anything very specific or useful.  .50 AE is a fairly powerful handgun cartridge.  .50 BMG is a ginormous (technical term) rifle cartridge.  They're nowhere close to similar.  Friday (talk) 16:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Meta-question.
What question should I ask to provoke Ref Desk regulars to read Toilet paper orientation with the solemnity that it deserves? SteveBaker (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For some reason I think that more educated people tend to be 'under' instead of 'over', but don't ask me why. --Belchman (talk) 19:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see why that would be true. However, families with playful cats or kittens probably get trained by those felines to take the "under" approach. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This reads like an Uncyclopedia article. Vimescarrot (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you should frame the question around the concept that it is probably only Wikipedia that could or would ever polish such an article to Featured Article status; as the Heavy metal umlaut article used to be (before the FA standards went up). Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of Polish, I understand that in the Warsaw Hilton they are loaded sideways. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I changed the title to the subject of the OP's question. That is our sole requirement for titles. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In case anyone else was confused like I was : User:TenOfAllTrades set it back to SteveBaker's original topic "Meta Question". APL (talk) 02:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am confused. Why on this issue of tissue did the OP violate the instruction "Include a meaningful title. Do not write "Question" or "Query",..."? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:POINT. Let's handle your concerns like adults... Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The question is not really about toilet paper: it is about the reference desk. So, "meta-question" is a meaningful and correct title. --Tango (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Truly this is one of the great debates of our time. Much like Names for soft drinks but less regional. APL (talk) 02:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Named driver on my car insurance
Just passed my driving test :-) but insurance is far too expensive :-( I've heard that it can lower the price if I have a more experienced person on my policy as a named driver, but would that make them responsible in any way if I crash? Would they lose the no-claims discount on their own car? This is in England btw. 86.154.105.143 (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

First things first. If you are the main driver of the vehicle and you 'lie' and put yourself as only a named driver when there's no intention of the other person being a driver on the vehicle (and then crash your car) the insurance company are very likely to investigate your claim and not pay (and if another party is involved you would be liable for potentially a lot of money). I appreciate you didn't word the question like you were going to put someone else as the main driver but it's something a lot of people do and it is pretty much akin to having no insurance at all. On to the question - no a named driver is not affected at all if another driver of the vehicle crashes it. It is not associated with them, and they won't lose any no claims discount. (I should note i've worked in insurance in the UK for the past 9 years). ny156uk (talk) 19:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply, and I do know the difference. The car will be mine and insured in my name. I needed to know if there was any downside to putting my parents on my insurance - not the other way round. 86.154.105.143 (talk) 20:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You will find that for young newly qualified drivers it really does pay to get a car in a very low insurance group. After a couple of years (assuming you keep your license clean and don't make a claim) there won't be much difference in cost between insurance between the lowest few groups (for me 1 to 8 are all cheap), but its worth driving group 1 car. Get a quote and see! -- Q Chris (talk) 11:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the downside of adding a named driver to a policy is that you have to pay extra for it. --Tango (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on passing your test! My daughter passed hers aged 17 last year, and now has a car that she drives herself and which is insured in her name.  We got quite a few quotes before we insured it, and in almost every case it was cheaper when either my husband or I were added to the policy as named drivers for occasional use.  When we were both added, it became cheaper still.  This amazed me, as like Tango I was under the impression that it was always more expensive to add more drivers to a policy.  Apparently some companies like to see experienced older drivers on a young person's insurance.  I would definitely advise you to shop around for quotes including your parents on the policy if they are willing, see what difference it makes, and explain to the company what you're doing - they can be very helpful.  It can also be handy to have someone else who can drive your car for you if necessary.  And as Ny156uk says, if you have a bump when you're at the wheel, it won't hurt the insurance record of your other named drivers.  Ka renjc 18:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's very odd... I can't understand why that would be. You're sure it was you as named driver on her insurance and not the other way around? (It is very well known that the other way around works - of course, it is illegal as ny156uk says.) Why would an extra driver being insured on the car reduce the risk? Very odd, indeed... --Tango (talk) 18:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, it seemed utterly bizarre to me too, but that's how it is, I promise you. My daughter is insured via a completely different company from us (our own insurer produced some ludicrous quote for her when I approached them) and has third-party, fire and theft cover on a Ford Ka registered in her own name, with her dad and me as named drivers.  The difference when we were added to the policy was around £80 I think, so it was well worth doing.  From my point of view it's great, because my daughter is building up her own no claims bonus and getting a discount too.  And whilst we don't need to drive her car very often, there have been occasions when we have needed to move it when she's not around, so the cover is a bonus.  Ka renjc 23:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You really can get lower insurance premiums by adding another driver, but only sometimes. A long while ago, I added my sister to my policy as named driver and it cost a little extra (about £12).  However, at the last renewal I was thinking I could save that £12 by removing my sister from the policy, but was quoted a higher premium without her.  This was explained as being because she is female, has her own insurance for her own car, lives in an area with a lower crime rate, and would be using the car for some journeys (actually she rarely drives my car).  Astronaut (talk) 04:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Lucas Bend
Where is Lucas Bend? Which river flows into which? As a Brit I have no idea where everything is. Anyone from Kentucky/Tennessee/Ohio around? S.G.(GH) ping! 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the article should have a geo template. Barlow Bottoms, another location shown in the map for the battle, is roughly at 37.06389 N 89.10944 W, with Lucas Bend a bit west and a teeny bit south of that.  I'm off out, but if someone could zoom in to the correct place, read off the correct coords, and add the appropriate coord template to the battle's article, that'd be nice. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Although Cairo, Illinois, which is very close to it, does have a geo template. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * According to this source, the bend is located at 36.7959°N, -89.1667°W This location makes sense, since descriptions of the battle say that Union ships sailed downriver (south) from Cairo to engage Confederate ships based at Columbus, Kentucky. Lucas Bend is just upriver of Columbus. Incidentally, this location does not appear on the aerial photo linked to the article.  It is a bit south of the stretch of the Mississippi shown in that photo. To answer the OP, Lucas Bend is just a bend, or meander, in the Mississippi River.  No major tributary flows into the Mississippi at that point. Since the time of the Civil War the Army Corps of Engineers have cut off many of the bends, apparently including Lucas Bend.  The historical location of these bends is often marked by state boundaries, which sometimes appear to be land boundaries on the "wrong" side of the river.  In the case of Lucas Bend, where a piece of Kentucky lies on the "wrong side" of the present-day main course of the river, an arm of the Mississippi still seems to flow along the old course of the river according to Google Earth, though it is silting up.  Marco polo (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've made a link of your coordinate, Marco, for ease of use. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A propos of nothing, really: In the book Show Boat (and the various plays and films derived therefrom), the ingenue lead is named "Kim", because she was born on the river at the point where Kentucky, Illinois and Missouri meet. Edna Ferber says in the book that the name was "uneuphoneous", apparently unable to see into her crystal ball that time when the name would become popular.  Everard Proudfoot (talk) 18:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Patent expiration vs. Exclusivity expiration
I was trying to research when companies would be allowed to sell no-name versions of some prescription drugs, but drugs seem to have both a "patent expiration date" and an "exclusivity expiration date". What's the difference? 142.104.53.219 (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you give an example? It might have to do with this: Generic_drug. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Building a career from scratch aged 26
A while back I read something here about getting jobs with no references. I am in the same position, maybe worse. I am 26 years old and I worked since leaving high school, but I messed up big time. I made a very bad error of judgement, which has left me with no job and nobody willing to vouch for me. Literally nobody. Word has got around in the sector I worked, and there is noone left who I can ask for a reference. I know in some ways I am lucky - I wanted out of that industry anyway, and what I did was not criminal so I have no police record. But how do I start again, with a blank space of 8 years since school? Even unpaid voluntary work seems to ask for references. I am a hard worker who has learned his lesson, and I will do literally any unpleasant job to make money and get my first new reference. Once I have that, I can volunteer to get the specific experience I need for a better career, and I'm thinking of going to university too. But I can only do it if someone will take a risk and hire me with no guarantees, just because I look and sound serious at the interview. Do any jobs, anywhere, work like that? Doodledoooooo! (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * One option is to go to a temp agency. It's been a while, but when I was working through a temp agency, there were people working there who were coming from decidedly shady backgrounds.  I got sent to a variety of factory jobs, and while some of them only lasted a day or a week, it didn't take long before I landed in one that was indefinite- if they liked your work, they'd keep you on, and after a period of time, if a regular job opened up, you could apply for it and get off the temp agency's payroll and onto the factory's and... it's one possible path to rebuilding an employment history, if you are sincere about not minding manual labor. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sincere. Right now I just want to work. Do you mean go to the agency, bare my soul and ask for their help, or just keep things vague and hope nobody mentions references at all? I don't know how things work for labouring or factory jobs, but for the pen pushing work I am experienced in, agencies always seem to check refs. That was the first thing I tried, looking for temp work in my industry but at the other end of the country. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When I was working the assembly line at the factory, no one seemed to care much about references. I had at least one colleague who was a rapist recently released from prison, and another so clinically paranoid that he recorded everything that happened, all day, on a handheld tape-recorder, so he would have evidence of it later.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. That sounds bad... but also good. If people in that much trouble can get hired, I should be able to. Then have to survive it of course :-) Doodledoooooo! (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't that bad, actually. Pay was crap, but the repetitive work had a sort of meditative quality to it.  Just quietly inserting cog A into part B, hundreds of times an hour, more or less alone with my thoughts... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you went to university first then you would get the references you require. and probably a better job too. But in your country it may be difficult to fund the cost. 92.29.123.193 (talk) 22:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be too expensive unless I could work a bit in termtime. There is government finance available (I'm in the UK) but it doesn't cover all of a student's living costs. Anyway I have to eat until I get there! But if I start work soon, I can apply to universities for 2011 entry. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have provided references for individuals who have made "a mistake": in one case, a long history of drinking on the job and coming to work drunk, and in another, of stealing supplies and re-selling them. In each case, my reference was qualified by "except for" and a brief explanation of the "mistake". First, I had to be convinced that the behaviour was all in the past and second, the person had to be willing to put the error in front of the potential employer, and be judged. Someone might be prepared to do that for you. The idea about retraining is not a bad one if you have some skills you could hone. Bielle (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you know if those people were hired? In my case I don't think it's possible. I could ask my ex-colleagues and supervisors again, but I have already explained myself and not convinced them. One supervisor told me up front that I'd be better off with no reference than what she felt able to say. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In light of the fact that you're using a username and therefore posting geographically anonymously, why don't you tell us what exactly you've done? That information would help us better craft your re-employment strategy. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 02:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I really would rather not, if it's all the same. I know I have burned my bridges. I need to make a clean break, and posting all the details could only undermine that. The whole world reads Wikipedia, including my family and friends who don't know the gory details, and someone might guess that it's me. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 10:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Good luck in your career... 26 is still young!!! I personally know people who had lost everything and started much later and they had gone on to achieve great things in life. Be confident and never give up. Success, they say belongs to people who genuinely want it. There are hundreds of jobs which need no references, when we were holidaying in Rome, a Professor ( retired) from the US was chipping in as our part time guide for the day and we paid him twice the normal fee because he was very informative, smiling and not only did he speak about Rome but he spoke on several related topics which really endeared him to us....he ensured that he took good care fo us in several small ways. You can try and be a tour guide, a sales person in a boutique, an escort, a voluteer in a mortuary ( where they always have vacancies), a helper in a bakery... what not... no job is too insignificant if you seriously intend to start from a scratch. Fragrantforever 05:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fragrantforever (talk • contribs)
 * That's the kind of pensioner I'd want to be :-)) Doodledoooooo! (talk) 11:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What kinds of skills do you have? Can you be a freelancer for a while? Even if you're not making enough to live on the income, your satisfied customers may be a source of references for your next job. --173.49.10.201 (talk) 08:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing amazing, but I can proofread and copyedit. Might also be able to translate things into English, but not sure I am good enough to get paid for it. I did look for volunteer work as a proofreader last month, but never found anything promising. Do you know a good place to find it? Doodledoooooo! (talk) 10:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are really desperate you could do casual work where they are unlikely to ask for references, such as picking strawberries etc or building site labouring. Part time sales jobs do not ask for references as far as I recall. Look in your local newspaper, keep trying. When I got a good job in my early twenties my friends supplied the references. Perhaps you are over-estimating the demand for a reference - employers dont expect someone as young as you to have a solid career behind them - you are not middle-aged. 92.24.189.3 (talk) 10:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You have cool friends :-) There are lots of strawberry farms round here, and I emailed two places yesterday about picking jobs. September is harvest time, so if I don't get anything sooner I hope I can do that. I have tried sales in the past but was useless - I found it dishonest, which meant my pitch was always off-key somehow and I sold almost nothing. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 11:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Anyone seriously looking for a proofreader or copyeditor would look for someone trained and qualified. I think your best bet, if you can't afford to wait and pay for training in a new skill, is to use your contacts - friends, family, neighbours - and local voluntary groups, and do some unpaid or low-paid work for them.  Work hard, build it up, get them (eventually) to provide good refs, to help you get to the point where you can do something you actually want to do.  Your local charity shops are looking for helpers, no doubt - it may be a pain, and be time consuming for no reward, but you'll build up trust and experience in new areas.  Maybe you could help older neighbours with housework, gardening, etc.  If you can start off by doing something that you like to do - or that you think that other people will pay you decent money to do in preference to getting other people, or doing it themselves - so much the better.  Start off with rock bottom aspirations, prove yourself, and work up from there.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How long would you say I should do volunteer work before I can ask my boss there for a reference? I don't mind volunteering at all, and I'd keep on working there after I get a paid job, but I've got to eat sooner not later. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 11:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait and see how it's going, then ask them. They will want to know why someone of your age is doing voluntary work anyway (it's quite unusual), and if you can't think of a valid reason (eg "My favourite aunt died of cancer", or whatever) it's best to come clean at the outset and explain that you're looking for a new start.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is taking some sort of short back-to-work type training course. These are often available free of charge, particularly if you have been signing on for some time.  The instructors on those courses are usually happy to provide references and, while these will naturally be rather perfunctory, they should suffice for some purposes (such as finding voluntary work or work with no experience expected).  Another thought - when were you last in education?  Is there a former teacher or lecturer who might provide you with a reference? Warofdreams talk 16:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been there already, and unfortunately the course I got sent on was a waste of time. One highlight was a basic numeracy test, which the tutor told us to mark ourselves and add up the score!! By the time I found out about more useful things, it was too late to enrol on anything before the summer break. If I am still unemployed in September I can take a course, but really I need a job before that. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 19:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I assume that if you could add up the score, you passed basic numeracy! These sort of basic courses, as you say, are usually a waste of time, but can be a useful source of a reference. Warofdreams talk 23:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It was 8 years since I had any contact with my school teachers, and I can't think of one who would really remember me well. I passed my exams, but I wasn't anyone's star pupil and I moved schools quite a few times with my mum's job. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone who has the first 2 years of college completed could get a degree in a variety of fields with 2 more years of college, transferring the earlier credits. Someone with no college could get (in the US) an Associate degree in 2 years from a community college. Shorter courses can gain one various "certificates" such as in computer repair, or training in some trade such as heating and refrigeration, medical technician, or pharmacy technician. In the US, there are grants and low interest loans available for education. In large companies, people sometimes hire on as a janitor or some such entry position, then advance to a high paid union job. It may be necessary to test high or to know someone or to have a recommendation from someone to get such a job. Edison (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In the UK (where I am) it's a bit different. There are interest-free student loans for fulltime courses, but the living costs element is capped at a level which means you have to either work part-time or sponge off your parents. Part-time academic courses are funded by a grant that covers all the fees, but you're on your own for living costs. Useful vocational courses like the certificates you mentioned are usually not funded, annoyingly. There's a bank loan scheme (Career Development Loans) where the government pays the interest until you finish studying, but you still have to convince a bank to lend you the money. They usually aren't keen. And I don't think a union-based career path like your janitor might follow exists anymore outside the public sector. Under our new ConDem government :-P I don't think it will last long even there. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 19:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Our equivalent of the associate's degree is the foundation degree. They only exist in some subjects at some institutions, and as far as I've heard they don't get much respect. Yet. Maybe that will change when they have existed a bit longer. Anyway, I've missed the deadline for university or college this year (mid-January for most courses) and there isn't likely to be much on offer in clearing. The number of student places (which are paid for upfront by the government) has been cut severely because of our public debt problem. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

How about printing off some flyers offering gardening services, basic handyman work and that sort of thing and put them through letterboxes? It could give you some income and if you work hard, and get on okay with people, it may lead to more regular work and possible good references in time. If you enjoy the work, you might find there is a related university degree or college qualification you could try for - possibly part time, eg landscape gardening, plumbing. Also, have a look at Open University courses. You have to pay for them, of course (I don't know if financial help is available but look a their website). With the Open University, you study at home and get credits for each module successfully completed. You get a degree when you have enough credits - different from the traditional UK university approach and it means you can spread the costs over more than the ususal three years (in England) or four years (Scotland) traditional University course. Good luck! (Edited to add OU link). Also, in my experience, OU degrees tend to be well regarded by employers as they are academically just as rigourous as traditional univerisities and successful completion shows evidence of self discipline, self motivation and determination. http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/?KWCAMPAIGN=zed_Brand&keywordid=ggluk_open_university
 * I'll try your first suggestion with the flyers, thanks! I can do gardening and basic DIY like putting up shelves, and maybe fixing computers too. I've "fixed" quite a few before, and usually there was nothing physically wrong with the machine. The owner just didn't know how to configure it or had let a virus slip through. I do know about the Open University, and there is finance available to cover the fees, but I'll need a job even more if I do that! Doodledoooooo! (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This might be a little late considering all the excellent advice above, but I would just like to point out that references these days are rarely very extensive. The ones I have written (or rather, filled out) for past employees recently are no more than a few brief questions from the prospective company with yes/no tick boxes along the lines of, 'was the person punctual', 'how long did they work there', 'how many sick days did they take'. Even if I wanted to elaborate, there was no room on the form or even a request for me to do so. You sound eloquent and intelligent, so apply for the jobs that appeal, wow them at the interview and take it from there. 83.104.128.107 (talk) 13:52, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I think that only holds for references who found you okay-but-not-amazing. Someone who actively dislikes you will get you if given any sort of chance. There must have been a question along the lines of "would you rehire this person", surely? Doodledoooooo! (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But don't, whatever you do, anticipate or justify your references (or the lack of them) in your written application. I once received an application in which, under "references", was the comment "see covering letter".  It was accompanied by two sides of single-spaced typewritten A4, setting out in detail the applicant's grievances against his previous employer, from whom he had parted on such terms as to be unable to ask for a reference.  His application wasn't bad as far as it went, but after a cursory glance at the special pleading, the place it went was the bin.  Find referees to your character if necessary, or take a short-term menial job or voluntary post for the purpose of acquiring a reference as some have advised above; then apply for jobs you think you could do well and don't explain or elaborate on your referees unless you are asked directly.  If pressed hard at interview, explain honestly that you made a bit of a mess of things - nothing criminal, but it wasn't your finest hour - and you've been doing your best to make a new start.  Say that you understand why they might be wary of someone without the usual reference from a previous employer, and offer to accept a probationary period of some months, even if it's not in the contract, in order to prove yourself if offered the position.  Most employers make up their mind on their own impressions, not other people's opinion.  Good luck.   Ka renjc 15:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I know first impressions count for a lot. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Another option is just try and see. I worked for a company that had a strict rule that said the only information they could give in a reference was your job title(s) and how long you worked in each position. They had a standard form with a paragraph explaining this. Evidently they had been successfully sued over a bad reference given by a manager with a grudge. If the company where you made this mistake has this policy you might just get a standard reference. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was very close to doing that, but my new boss would probably let me start while waiting for references. Then weeks or even months later, when I wasn't expecting it, the references would finally arrive and I'd be sacked on the spot. Doodledoooooo! (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe try some volunteering, then ask the organizers to provide a reference? ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)