Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 July 28

= July 28 =

Swans
We have a family of Swans in Michigan. The southwest area. Pullman, Michigan. We have been watching families for a long time and wonder why some of the juveniles are grey and some white. They are all from the same hatch. Right now we have a family of 4 grey juveniles and 1 white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.225.237.67 (talk) 03:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there is a general frame of time for plumage to mature, rather than a snap-your-fingers switch. Human adult first molars are called 6-year molars, but they can come out after only 5 years and 11 months or wait for 6 and a half years.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 06:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's impossible for a swan to lay 5 eggs simultaneously. Some of your swans are more juvenile than others.
 * According to Mendelian inheritance, parents can give birth to offspring with different features (such as color) if both of them are carrying a recessive gene. If the difference in the color of the juveniles is not related to their age, it may be related to the random recombination of their parents' genes to form their zygotes.  Marco polo (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently, the Mute Swan, probably the most common type of swan in the Great Lakes region, has cygnets that range in color from white to gray. This is probably genetically determined, as I have suggested. Marco polo (talk) 19:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The Book Depository
How can The Book Depository profitably ship their books all around the world at no cost to the buyer? Also, how can they profitably send a number of books from the one order to the same buyer as individual packages? Thanks.150.49.180.199 (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Mark
 * I can't offer definite referenced information, but speaking as a former professional bookseller, I suggest that:
 * (1) The trade discounts TBD receive from the publishers (whose discounts vary from trade customer to trade customer and are better for larger-volume buyers, so TBD's are probably very good) and their pricing strategy probably enables them to absorb their overall 'post & packing' costs within the prices they offer to their customers; i.e. a copy price of, say, $5.00 will automatically include an element sufficient to cover the average cost of delivery. This across-the-board approach would cut down the work (and hence cost) they would have to expend if they had to calculate the real delivery cost for each individual customer order.
 * (2) TBD almost certainly do not hold every title they advertise physically in stock, but instead will be continually reordering from the publishers for stock or for individual customer orders. Titles can go temporarily (or permanently) 'Out of Print' at the publishers without warning and then take varying periods to re-appear (if ever). It would take significant administrational effort (hence more cost) and possibly incur significant delay to multiple-item orders for TBD to compile and hold them until all the ordered items were to hand, and might therefore also delay payment. Sending each item individually as soon as it's available would minimize handling complexity (and costs) and (presuming the individual items are individually billed) maximise the speed of payments. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 07:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This would appear to be an advertisment. Should we remove it? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As long as there is no attempt to post a promotional link to a particular retailer and the information given is generic to the bookselling trade, it is ok. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (Edit Conflict) It doesn't feel like one to me, FisherQueen. Beyond positing the bare existence of the firm, (which we do anyway by virtue of having an article on it) it doesn't imply any particular superiority over various other similar outfits, which I'll refrain from naming for fear of advertising them! Indeed, I'd find the effective concealment of the true costs of delivery entailed by its 'all-in' prices a little off-putting, as it makes comparisons with rivals' prices harder. (My answer to (1) above should perhaps have made it clearer that they don't really deliver "at no cost to the buyer", they're just concealing the cost in their greater overall quoted prices.) Also, are buyers of smaller and cheaper-to-deliver books from TBD effectively subsidising the costs of those buying larger and hence dearer ones?
 * I should perhaps mention that the retail bookshop I once worked for, and all the 2nd-hand booksellers I've personally dealt with on a mail-order basis, were/are too small for such administrational economies of scale to work, so I have no actual first-hand experience of deploying them, merely background knowledge of the Book Trade. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Light belatedly dawns! Did you mean you thought my answer was an advertisement, FisherQueen? Let me assure you that I haven't been employed in bookselling for around 25 years, or any form of mail order for about 20, and I'd never even heard of The Book Depository before seeing the question, so I've no motivation to shill for them! :-) . 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What? No, I thought the question was an ad- "How is it that my business is so awesome?"  Of course, I could be wrong. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm new to this. I was attempting to include context, as required here.  I should have asked "How can some online book stores profitably ship their books all around the world at no cost to the buyer?" etc, whilst also having my question titled along the lines of "Online Book Stores".  Apologies and I appreciate the responses.  Cheers150.49.180.199 (talk) 00:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Mark

Westernization..
Concerning Indian culture, the difference in the outlook towards life and society due to the generation gap is increasingly showing out among the youngsters..Speaking of romance and relations, the younger society is getting westernised.. Right from child marriage to love marriages gettin accepted, the Indian society has continually evolved and is still on the line.But now casual relations without commitment,where even sometimes they are together only for s**, is increasingly occupying the scenario.Ths is being called as a part of liberal thinking. But how far is the culture progressing in a positive direction?? The youth who have drowned themselves in sheer enjoyment now don't bother to take a serious thought.Will it not affect their future?? Frustration, regrets, lack of self-content, emotional indulgence and intimacy seems to be on the high.. An article capturing the front of Times life last sunday had voiced the concern..It all depends on the individual thinking, and thats what builds the society norms on a larger basis..But can it be classified as right or wrong?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Padma1012 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Your questions appear (to me at any rate) to require personal opinions and predictions of future events (as well as a detailed and first-hand knowledge of Indian society) rather than referenceable facts. As such, they fall outside the remit of these Reference Desks, which are not intended for general discussion. You might be better seeking a relevant discussion forum site; perhaps one of the other responders here can suggest one. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 400+ years ago a similar concern about Relativism of values was being expressed in English theater: "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - from Hamlet, Shakespeare; Act II, scene ii. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When I read Huston Smith's take on Hinduism, he referred to the 4 Wants of Man (figure I'd put it in bold), described in this (Puruṣārtha) article, pleasure was the first. According to him, while Christianity tended to be down on pleasure, Hinduism wasn't--it was just a bit immature. Now I'm neither Hindu nor Indian, but I figure that all this pleasure seeking would be--assuming that rules regarding things like consent are observed--just a stage that a person or people or a segment (however huge it is) are going through. Let the children have their fun, eventually they (or most of them) will grow up.70.54.181.70 (talk) 19:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Depending on your culture, morality is defined by the culture, and culture is ever-changing. What is right now may not always have been right, and likewise what is wrong now.  Some cultures have polygamy for example, and have no problem with it, while others find is abhorrent.  You seem to recognize this change, so I'm not sure if your question can even be answered. Aaronite (talk) 23:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This quote, allegedly by Socrates but probably not,


 * "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."


 * may give an example: Kids will be kids. Aaronite (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed the indents after some confusion... Aaronite (talk) 19:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * They cross their legs?!? Oh, the horror!  You should immediately thrash them to within an inch of their lives and send them to bed without supper.  Oh...wait...isn't this the 21st century?


 * Times change. Rising when elders enter the room serves no useful function - why teach it?  Why purpetuate this useless piece of humiliation for another generation?  My child may contradict me - but I use that as an exercise to understand why - and explain why the child is incorrect - listen...sometimes they are correct and I'm wrong.  We use these occasions as an opportunity to teach and to learn.  Generally, this produces the desired respect-for-elders.  But respect has to be earned, simply demanding respect from your children can only produce resentment.  My (nearly-adult) son seeks out my opinion on all sorts of matters because he respects my years of experience and my patience to provide good answers - not because I've forced him into a state of cringing fake respect!  If you force your kids into these kinds of behaviors, they are going to be thinking "What a jerk!" all the while they are standing when you enter the room...if that's the kind of respect you want, then I'm greatly saddened.


 * What you call "chattering" is the child learning acceptable ways to make conversation - they do that because they are learning from us, and we chatter too. Again, the trick is to engage your children in useful, interesting and intelligent conversation - give them good things to discuss - have them value good conversation and reject meaningless nonsense.  Then, your guests will be impressed by your intelligent, coherent children...this will pass on to their school work, enable them to ask for answers and not just swallow things "just because" - and that will serve them better in future life.  In the age of the internet, being able to regurgitate facts is useless (we have Wikipedia for that) - we value intelligence, innovation, creativity - and you don't get that by telling your kids that what you say is the law!  My son continually questioned his teachers throughout high school - sometimes he was wrong - but gradually he became more right.  Several times I've had to prove to his teachers that they were in fact wrong and he was right in order to get a grade corrected.  I don't want my kid accepting things "just because" - I want him to have an enquiring mind - an enduring curiosity.  I won't treat my child like a pet poodle.  He's an intelligent, reasoning, human being - and it's my only remaining purpose in life to give him the best possible chance of "making it" in the modern world.


 * SteveBaker (talk) 01:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The indentation got screwed up, but Aaronite was quoting something attributed to Socrates, so I'm sure "cross their legs" has some significance that is not immediately apparent. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was kind of wondering why Steve was bitching at Socrates, there. The crossing legs thing is probably related to the more recent but still archaic prohibition on women crossing their legs (as being "un-lady-like"). It probably has something to do not flashing your genitals to people who haven't requested the pleasure. ;-) Matt Deres (talk) 14:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"Bitching at Socrates"... that's hilarious. I fixed the indents. Aaronite (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe younger Indians would follow your values more if they weren't so anal-retentive and didn't order them to show undeserved respect to their elders. Almost every generation since recorded history thought that the next generation was corrupt and was going to put an end to morality, but it hasn't happened yet. 142.104.55.7 (talk) 01:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's proof that some Indians in the past were more open about sex. Commons:Category:Kama Sutra:-)205.189.194.208 (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Seeking a literary reference for a fictional software backdoor
Hi. I have something of a curious question, and I was hoping that a well-read Wikipedian might be able to help. I'm trying to find a two or three word phrase that would serve as a backdoor password for use in a story. I'd like the context for this password to be related to escaping from an unpleasant situation, such as might refer to a fleeing adulterer or a prisoner who leaves by the back door. Preferably the phrase would be adopted from a relatively widely known work from before the twentieth century, so that a well read person would instantly draw the connection. (Shakespeare, the Bible, &c.) However, it also must be to be a combination of words that wouldn't normally be used in a conversation, so that the password is extremely unlikely to be accidentally typed or spoken.

The best I have been able to come up with so far is "II Timothy 2:26", but that is not quite what I want. Does anybody have a better suggestion? Thank you.&mdash;RJH (talk) 17:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Some helpful context: (KJV) II Timothy 2:26 "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." How about Proverbs 28:1: "The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion."(KJV). Edison (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I have no good quote, but perhaps something from The Count of Monte Cristo. The escape happens during chapter 19 and subsequent chapters. Wikiquote has a couple of memorable lines from the book. Maybe "Abbé Faria" for the password? ---Sluzzelin talk  18:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ali Baba's "Open Simsim" is surely the perfect case of what you want, but its overuse has probably made it a cliché. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 18:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You could use "deus ex machina". Matt Deres (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Friar Lawrence 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "beneath Polyphemus' sheep"? Deor (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Nice. Thanks for the ideas!&mdash;RJH (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How about get out of jail free? Too long? -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 23:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

airline
which airline is the most expensive airline in the world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psycho4923 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * On average? Has the highest published price for a first-class ticket?  Has the highest price for economy-class tickets?  Has actually sold one or more of its highest-price tickets?  Including special rentals and charters?  Has the highest operating costs per passenger-mile? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * More a conglomerate then solely an airline, but the US government probably wins this one hands down. It cost over $2 trillion last year.  65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The US government is not in any sense an airline. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not an airline in the sense they don't operate aircraft to transport people from one location to another? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't be ridiculous. You know perfectly well what an airline is. --Tango (talk) 21:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * He might be confusing an air line with an air force. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

in the early nineties, I had the pleasure of flying on a BA 747-400 on the upper deck, as an economy passenger. My friends refute this, and say they never carried less than club class upstairs. I cannot find any statistics on your Boeing 747 to back me up. Regards Brian Ramsden —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.49.231 (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you purchase a Boeing 747-400, you can have the interior configured as you wish. No first class, all first class, it's completely up to you if and where you put first/business/economy class.  Typically first class is in the front or on the top (in the case of the 747-400), in my observations, but I would never presume that they ALL do that without actually looking it up.  Check out Seat Guru.  That might be a place to start.  It will tell you, for example, that Air Pacific has it's business class seats on the front of the lower deck, and the upper deck is entirely economy. Falconus p  t   c 05:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's hard to say what the most expensive would be, but there are luxury airlines that are very expensive to fly, though often with amenities to match. I have seen ads for Emirates (airline) which implies a rather comfortable flight, with private sleeper cabins and stuff like that.  Just one example, there's probably more that offer similar costs and services.  -- Jayron  32  05:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Is BA Boeing or British Airways? If it's the former, as others have said it's likely there have been airlines who have seated economy class in the upper decks of a Boeing 747-400. There may even have been airlines with all economy 747s, suggestions one, JAL although they had less seats then someone else with a premium economy.
 * If it's British Airways, then I don't know if they have had economy class upper decks but it's possible they have not, in any case it's clearly a more restrictive set.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 11:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

The price for a flight to the International Space Station is US$ 20-35 million. Make your reservation here because space is limited. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * By this point someone should have mentioned flights on the Concorde, flown by British Airways and Air France. Can't make sweeping generalizations about the entire airline, but it's safe to say that people who needed to be on the other side of the Atlantic in the least possible time were not afraid to pay for the service they received.
 * DaHorsesMouth (talk) 01:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Melatonin
I've been searching google but I'm getting conflicting answers. Is Melatonin available to buy in the UK, or is it only available on prescription? And if its only available on prescription, would buying Melatonin from the internet be illegal in the UK? 82.43.88.151 (talk) 21:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In the USA it's available over the counter. Is it not thus in the UK? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm trying to find out. 82.43.88.151 (talk) 22:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Per this article, it seems it has been prescription only in the UK since 1995. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That page tried to get me to download something, so I backed out of it. It's odd they would require a prescription, but if they do, they do. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I had no problems with the page. Melatonin requires prescription in most of the EU. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That article does state that "websites registered outside the UK cannot be prosecuted". As Finlay says, nobody here is able to give you legal advice, so it's up to you what you make of it. Cod Lover Oil (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The UK website of a major highstreet pharmacist (who I'm not going to link to, as they don't need the advertising) has a page on "Jet lag treatment" on their UK website which offers to prescribe melatonin over the internet - they say a doctor is involved, but it seems you just fill out an online questionnaire to qualify (it's also very expensive). If you search the website of a popular UK health food shop (again no ads from me) for "melatonin" it tries to sell you 5-Hydroxytryptophan instead.  As to what would happen if someone were to import Melatonin, I think that's getting into the territory of legal advice, where we shouldn't go (and you darn well shouldn't trust us if we said doing so was legal). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 23:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was able to order it online for delivery in the UK, without any virtual-prescription charade, but the site I used has shut down since then. The bottles I got were labelled for sale in the US. I think they worked for me, but it is always possible they were fakes and I experienced a placebo effect. Cod Lover Oil (talk) 23:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In my experience, it is very common to find that things that you can buy over the counter in the US require a prescription in the UK. I suspect that much of the reason for that is that in the US, many people don't have health insurance and a trip to the doctor is a costly business - hence more risky drugs have to be permitted over the counter.  In the UK, with universal health care entitlement, getting a prescription is a cheap process so the authorities can err on the side of caution when deciding what can be sold freely.  If you think you may need Melatonin - go see a doctor. SteveBaker (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's only cheap (or free) if it's one of the drugs that the NHS will pay for (largely those that NICE tells the NHS Trust it should pay for). There are plenty of things which don't have a sufficient medical application (or which aren't in a specific case being used to address such a need) that the NHS won't cover, but for which one nevertheless requires a prescription. For these one must obtain a private prescription; the full cost of dispensing such a prescription is down to the patient.  I rather suspect (but I can't find a reliable list, given the preponderance of dodgy internet-pharma sites that contaminate any Google search) that melatonin prescription to treat medical conditions like sleep disorders will be covered, but for "lifestyle" issues like jetlag they'll say just say HTFU. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 00:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That 5-HTP is also very expensive, and just because it's sold in a "health food" shop, that doesn't mean it's "healthy" at all. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 23:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Recycling and economic theory
Is a final good still final if it can easily be recycled, or sold on after a normal period of use? What if it was designed to be returned or recycled, like a glass bottle with a deposit? Cod Lover Oil (talk) 23:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Our article uses the car as an example of a final good - and cars are quite recyclable. I think the point is that the car is only recycled after it's primary purpose is complete.  If bottles with a 5 cent deposit were "recycled" by cleaning them and refilling them with product - then I think you could argue that they were being sold by the consumer to the drink manufacturer.  But since they are actually recycled by being crushed and melted to make new glass - then they are a final good. SteveBaker (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation! It makes sense now. Btw, I've seen bottles with a deposit that were badly scuffed in rings around the sides, I suppose from the machinery that cleaned and refilled them. So not all of them are melted down. Cod Lover Oil (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It depends on the country. I visited Ecuador once and it was obvious from the edge-wear that the glass Coca-cola bottles had been returned, cleaned, and refilled dozens of times each to save costs. That's easy to do there because the bottle sizes don't vary as much as they do elsewhere. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 01:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * No - I think that's very unlikely these days. I think you're from the UK - right?  Our Container deposit legislation article says that in the UK: "in the absence of legislation, and given the switch from pub to supermarket sales, the industry has now entirely abandoned refillable bottles."  The scuff marks are just from the bottles rattling against each other in transit.  Re-usable bottles are on the way out.  The effort require to automatically clean bottles of all of the nasty things people could put in them is large - and the negative publicity when someone finds something nasty in their beer is devastating.  Melting down and re-casting bottles can be done very cheaply with modern automation - and it's just way less risky for the manufacturer. SteveBaker (talk) 01:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't true for milk bottles. We still have milk delivered in re-usable bottles. --Phil Holmes (talk) 14:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Irn Bru is still sold in glass bottles, with a 30p deposit (although in practice only off-licences and corner shops still carry the glass bottles, as supermarkets don't seem to want the bother of handling the returns). It's very common to get bottles in varying degrees of wear, particularly with heavy scuffing around the shoulder (consistent with dozens of cycles, or with some very rough treatment in a former cycle), and one frequently encounters ones with fragments of cement embedded in the ring at the base (showing the bottle's previous use on a building site). Occasionally one gets a bottle which still has a chunk of its former label which survived the cleaning cycle - I once got a Diet Irn Bru that had a fragment of a Tizer label (torn and bleached) sticking out from under the fresh Irn Bru label. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In the 1970's I briefly worked for a soft drinks manufacturer and wholesale beverage distributor in Fife. Processing returned bottles for re-use was indeed a tedious and effort-full procedure, involving decapping, emptying, and sorting for re-use or return (all by hand in the yard, sometimes in falling snow), washing and inspecting (for damage and unsuccessful cleaning) in the factory, and stacking very carefully so as to avoid contamination falling into the now clean, uncapped bottles. (I also ran the labelling machine at the end of the refilling line.) I was very glad to graduate onto the better-paid and more interesting job of Drayman's Mate. Perhaps this frugal if laborious approach has lingered longer in Scotland. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In 2008, when the deposit was 20p, A.G.Barr claimed a 70% return rate. Drunks occasionally chuck half-empty ones in my parents' garden; I empty them out and set the empty on the garden wall. I've never counted more than ten kids walk past a bottle before one grabs it. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In Malaysia, coffee shops, hawker stalls, school canteens and similar commonly sell their soft drinks in 285? ml glass bottles. If intended to be taken away, these will often be poured into clear plastic bags. If drunk at the at establishment, these may be provided in the bottle with a straw or a cup and straw, the bottle of course will be left behind when you finish. I don't believe these are commonly sold to the ordinary consumer and I guess if you want to take the bottle with you they will charge you more. For eating establishments, I would guess the return rate is quite high since as with any business they have a clear incentive not to lose too many. They are put back into the plastic containers they arrived in and when the store takes a delivery of new bottles, the truck takes back the empty ones. These usually have printed markings on them, not paper labels. I don't know how often they are re-used.
 * You also see similar things like gas cylinders. For example again in Malaysia gas stoves are fairly common but there is little piped gas (since it isn't needed for household heating its own use is likely to be household cooking so there's probably little incentive) most people use gas cylinders. When you run out, you take them to a shop or give them to one of the roaming gas cylinder salespeople and buy a new one. The cost is obviously higher if you don't have one (i.e. effectively a deposit for the cylinder). In NZ, gas cylinders are used for barbeques and portable heaters but these are common refiled at petrol stations rather using a bottle exchange system AFAIK.
 * I don't know much about economics but I would argue the key point here is the final good is the gas or the soft drink or whatever. The rest is just a container or packaging.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 11:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In Malaysia then, do they not have gas heated water, or is another method used for hot water? Googlemeister (talk) 13:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Electric is the norm. I think most people use hot water far less as not everyone wants a very warm shower and the 'cold' water from the tap isn't usually unbearably cold. The average size of storage water heaters are usually fairly small. See for example specifically  and, the largest size for the horizontal model is 95 litres and for the vertical model is 50 litres. Similar for . Most people probably don't go for the largest model. Of course with a relatively small tank it doesn't take so long to heat up again. Some may not have any storage hot water either just using an instant hot water heater or nothing at all.
 * Note that AFAIK most Malaysian washing machines are cold water fill, if they have a warm/hot wash at all they rely on heating (although perhaps this isn't that surprising since it's evidentally the norm in Europe from Washing machine). So the hot water is only used for personal hygeine and for washing dishes. Solar water heating isn't uncommon for the better off and from the earlier website I also came across using the AC for hot water heating. [www.eurojournals.com/ejsr_26_1_03.pdf] which discusses the economics of solar hot water heating doesn't mention gas hot water heating at all.
 * It's possible that businesses use gas hot water heating although I have my doubts, many may not even have any hot water systems and they could of course us solar or AC hot water heating if they do.
 * Note that most forms of energy are or were subsidised (because of the high costs and other factors the government is reducing these and other subsidies) in Malaysia including petrol, cooking gas and household electricity so I'm not sure how much the cost came down in favour of gas even if it was more efficient. See for example for electricity prices. I believe in the past there was only 3 rates for the first X, for the next Y and for whatever Z after with the difference between the lower consumption tariff and highest one fairly big. There is? an additional subsidy for low users.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 06:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Consider that when measuring GDP you are really interested in the total value added by the production process. So we can do a bit of accounting. Let's use a plastic bottle as an example. It is bought for $5. A person uses it then throws it away. It ends up in a recycling centre and they turn it into another plastic bottle. That one is worth $2.50 . The second process has taken something that was discarded (and so presumably without value) and turned it into something they could sell for $2.50. They have added value and so it should be counted in GDP (and is therefore a final good) Jabberwalkee (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Who is this painter?
Seeking information on Yolande Fierve (1901-1983)french painter.Old55 (talk) 23:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the correct name is "Yolande Fièvre" and she was born in 1907, not 1901. We don't have an article about her - but a Google search on the correctly spelled name produces thousands of pages.  I looked for a decent biography - but of the first few dozen web sites I looked at, there are only very short bio's to promote the sale of one or other of her works.  For example: "Yolande Fievre (1907-83): French artist who gave up traditional art for automatic painting and drawing, after meeting Andre Breton. Influenced also by Bernard Requichot, her best work - small-scale box constructions made out of wood, clay and stones, and populated by tiny figures - was completed during the 1950s and 1960s.".  SteveBaker (talk) 23:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)