Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 July 7

= July 7 =

accomodation for post-grad in Philadelphia PA, Ithaca NY and Northampton MA
My partner (Germany based) is planning to do some post-graduate research in Philadelphia, Ithaca and Northampton for a couple of months. Our problem is that we do not know how and where to find an accomodation, like a students' dorm or whatever there is. Does anyone know if there are colleges/universities that offer accomodation for foreign post-grad students or if there would be another possibility at a reasonable price, like pensions whose rent can be afforded for some weeks? I've never been to the US, so I'm kind of clueless where to start searching. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.196.55 (talk) 08:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I would expect each university to have an office that supports international students or researchers; I suggest starting with them, because they probably deal with people in your situation all the time. For example, assuming that the Ithaca institution is Cornell, there's an International Students and Scholars Office.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a tricky thing—there generally aren't easy accommodations that rent by the week. You can always check Craigslist—or even post your request there—but it's a real shot in the dark. What you want to ask is if someone would be willing to sublet the place to you for the dates in question, and what the price would be. The hope would be that you'll find someone who is going to be out of town anyway and has already decided that their rent money is a "loss", and will want to recover some of it for that period.
 * The universities might have ways of renting rooms for that amount of time but they won't be cheap at all. In general, when a US student or postdoc needs to go somewhere to do research, they have to explicitly budget hotel costs into their grant request, sublet or rent an apartment (renting is hard because leases are almost always yearly, not monthly or weekly), or stay with a friend. For short trips, I have found AirBnB.com to be an excellent resource in finding reasonable accommodations at lower-than-hotel prices in university towns. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In Philadelphia, I suggest contacting International House. It is a residential facility for students from outside the U.S. attending or doing work at area universities, such as Penn, Drexel, Temple and others. I don't know what they minimum length of stay is, but it's worth a check. — Michael J  13:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You might be interested in the answers to my question below, . Astronaut (talk) 06:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

What do the other countries think about Germans?
I would really like to know. I have read so many articles portraying them as Nazis, which to my mind (I am mixed-race, Eurasian, so I think I qualify for an opion about this; however I never went to the regions that are known to be "Nazi-Regions", not sure if they exist or if this just is an urban myth, but better not try to find that out) they are not.

Our teachers told us, that people from other nations in many cases think persons from Germany would be impolite, because we have what is called "negative politeness". So if Germans think that something is what other people would call "superb, outstanding, great", they just say "it is not bad". Let's assume a persons just won a competition and he tells his friends about it, they say "Oh, not bad", that could actually be the highest price. However I was told that if I ever would tell an American so, he would be deeply offended. We were strongly adviced not to use this "not bad" when around persons, who did not grew up in Germany, because they would not get it. Do you think Germans are impolite?-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 09:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * From the US here--I don't think Americans tend to think of Germans as impolite. For some reason the French tend to get tagged that way much more than Germans. Stereotypes aside, the Germans I have met, and the Americans I know who have many more German friends than I, seem to find Germans interesting, at least as polite as Americans (which might not be saying a lot!)...and perhaps, stereotypically again, focused, innovative, careful, and maybe even terse, maybe a bit odd. Perhaps I'm biased by knowing odd people who have made friends who odd Germans, but the ones I've met are friendly, happy, and a bit weird, in a good way. Certainly not Nazis. I'm sure there are neo-Nazis in Germany, but we have them here too in the US, home-grown. I doubt many Americans think of modern Germany as having much to do with World War II Nazi Germany. Same with Japan, for what it's worth. An enemy in World War Two, but today a fascinating place and culture. As for the phrase "oh, not bad", I can see how that might not come off well in English, depending on tone. An obvious alternative would be to say "good!" instead of "not bad". Pfly (talk) 10:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Having never really met anyone from Germany (other than my Grandmother...i'll leave her out of this) i can only describe what i see as a stereotype. In the films that i have seen that have a "German" character, most are portrayed as being either harsh, rude, short-tempered, they lack sympathy, or bascially show no signs of human emotion other than anger.  I don't believe most Americans actually believe this to be true.  I frequently hear the saying "not bad" in compliments so i don't think anyone from America would be offended by that saying. Drummerdavid (talk) 10:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm lost on your "not bad" story. So, I'll just try to answer the title question and your last question about politeness.  I'm in the US.  Americans have a stereotype about Germans being focused (fixated possibly) on matters of protocol.  Which I can understand.  I don't feel they're impolite though.  Maybe a bit stoic which may come off as being impolite to some people.  FYI, my brother lives in Germany and married a German.  I've been there a few times.  I do have one friend who is a Jew and refuses to ever visit Germany because of the Nazis.  She's in her 20s and is able to realize that she's stereotyping modern Germans harshly but is also not willing to set aside her quirk.  Dismas |(talk) 10:45, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) Aside from the fact that I believe this is not a Reference Desk question, I can throw in my two cents. Over here one will find several dissonant portrayals of Germans: a people ready to undertake new ventures and carry them out with order, a nation who is responsible of destroying the lives of at least one generation, a people who are despised because they play football too well... well, I must say, as a person who had travelled the length and width of Germany, and who had met many Germans young and old, and had lived there for a while - they really are ready to undertake obligations, they really do know how to maintain order in their ranks, but on the other hand they know how to make the rules a bit loose and have fun from time to time. They know how to plan out their work exactly and will follow their plan through to the letter, in an orderly, if not always efficient manner. They make great beer and are usually proud of this. There are some who avoid discussing history, still others I have met are more than eager to talk about it with foreigners like myself. They definitely are not impolite, maybe sometimes harsh and terse, but this is to be related rather to their efficiency than unkindness. Most are skilled at what they do and understand that one needs work to earn bread, and to earn better bread - one must be more skilled than average. They are also not easily impressed - but when impressed, they will show respect for you. --Ouro (blah blah) 10:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well-stated. I would add that (1) "Not bad" is very commonly heard, especially in the American midwest, and is considered a compliment; people will even solicit compliments by saying of something they did, "Not bad, eh?" (2) Germany is slowly extricating itself from its Nazi stereotype. Despite that stereotype, I don't think most Americans really believe it, it's just kind of a joke. Nearly all Germans I've run into are quite nice and amiable - especially from the point of view of us Midwesterners, who are typically from Northern European stock also and generally have a closer cultural connection with "efficient" Germans than with "touchy-feely" French and other Latins. (How's that for some stereotyping?) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:18, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This is just an answer for pfly, as the other answers were not there when I started answering. Anyway, thanks for so many answers. Our teacher told us, that our "not bad" or "quite nice" would translate the "great" or "fantastic" or "outstanding" in america. As a person raised in Germany somehow I have always trouble calling something "great", it is just a word we do not use very often.
 * Same goes for words such as "horrible", "desaster" and so on. We have been told by our teachers that if we complained that we have been treated "not very nice" people just would not get it, we should always tell that we received "horrible treatment" in that case.
 * Also we were told that we always must call other grown-ups "Sir" or "Ma'am", which is not too common in Germany and that we should always "beg another persons pardon", when we wanted to talk with him... so if you want to aks an american you don't know something always start the conversation with "I am begging, your pardon, Sir, but could you tell me..." or "Good day, Sir, begging your pardon, but could you tell me..., Sir", while in Germany that would be "Excuse me, could you tell me..." and if another person would ever "beg my pardon", I would think he was kidding me (unless of course if he was English or American, because I have been told they do so all the time). Actually the only times when I beg peoples pardon when talking German is when I want to offend them (that however does not mean all Germans act like this, some really mean it if they beg your pardon).
 * A little bit odd. May be we are. That reminds me of something that happened back when I was in school. We had an american student joining us for a year... and he never could tell when we were joking. One day I made an "invention". I put some marsmellows on my marmelade bread, calling it the marshmellow-marmelade-bread. My classmates (who wanted to tease me) called me a "scientist of genius" for inventing great things like that and I said I was sure I would be awarded the nobel-prize one day. That american boy somehow thought that I was being serious and started complaining how stuck up I was to believe that I would be awarded the nobel-prize and when a class-mate said "Oh, I really really think he was being serious" that confused him even more.
 * I don't know, may be he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer or americans just don't get the fact that Germans sometimes say the opposite of what they mean + Germans often make jokes while putting on a straight face (would spoil the joke if they would laugh all the time is what they think) and I realized a lot of people (especially souther europeans) never get this. Seems not to be very common in their culture.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 11:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is somewhat of a generational thing going on in America. In my (older) generation, "not bad" means "good". "Great" or "fantastic" or "outstanding" seem excessive, even though I'll admit to using those terms more than I should. They're like sales hype, and are overused. It's like when a ballplayer makes a better-than-average play, and some announcer says, "Unbelievable!" Gimme a break! The "beg your pardon, sir/ma'am", or just "sir/ma'am", when trying to get someone's attention seems to still be in fashion here, and has been for a long time. It's a way to get their attention, possibly interrupting what they're doing while also conveying an intent to be polite, laying some positive groundwork - as opposed to, "Hey, you!" which is not very polite among strangers. In regard to your last point, Americans (in my generation, at least) fully understand irony. Don't rule out the possibly that he was yanking your chain at the same time you were yanking his. (Although don't rule out that he was indeed a dim bulb.) This gets back to cultural commonality between Northern Europeans and the USA - or at least the Northern part of the USA. Don't forget there is a strong cultural divide between North and South still. JFK was reported to have said, "Washington DC is a city of northern charm and southern efficiency." And there you have a good American ironic joke in the German tradition. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As for "not bad," it's not at all uncommon for other languages/cultures to feel that being too enthusiastic about things is a problem, and that Americans go really overboard. I know that in my Russian language classes we were generally told that if someone says, "how are you doing?" the proper (expected) response is, "Normal." If you say, "I'm great!", you'd better have a good story behind it, or you are inviting trouble. If you say, "Not good," then your mother better have just died. In the USA, we expect everyone to be "fine, thanks," and if someone doesn't say our food is the "best damned thing they ever put in my mouth" then we're hurt and shocked.
 * I generally only interact with Germans abroad in academic settings and they are universally polite, soft-spoken, and articulate. This is obviously a selection issue—some kind of acceptable academic behavior. Japanese here (USA) have a reputation for being quiet, polite, and exceptionally excited about tourism and technology. Again, there must be a lot more variety than that. In Germany itself, it is clear that German society looks, at least superficially (who is walking around on the street) about as heterogeneous as most of American society, these days. (In Southern Germany I saw people of all colors and all religions happily mulling about in public squares, chattering on in German, Turkish, you name it.) --Mr.98 (talk) 11:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Where I am from in Germany we are also expected "fine" if asked "how are you" and if you actually are not fine, you are supposed to say "fine, but", like "fine, but my house has burned down and there still is an contract killer out there going to kill me (and they can be quite a nuisance, especially this one, who has already killed my mother, my father and everybody I knew), but besides I am fine), but as far as I heard other Germans are not like this and actually make fun of it (there are a lot of "fine, but..." jokes about my poeple).-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In the UK, we still have quite a strong Nazi stereotype of Germans. Most people do know that it's not true anymore, but it's still what we tend to think of. However we also see Germans as well-educated, polite, efficient and hardworking, but (again, unfairly from what I've seen) a bit short of a sense of humour. Oh, and annoyingly good at football :-) Cod Lover Oil (talk) 11:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that, in the UK, the "Nazi stereotyping" is still true only of those who still remember WWII (not many left), and a proportion of those who have never met any actual Germans. (Of course, the media still like to play on those stereotypes, and the stereotypes of ruthless efficiency, etc., but usually for comic effect rather than to reflect real opinions.) Those of us in the UK who have met German people, in more recent times, generally find them polite, humane and articulate, as others have said.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Just for everyone's amusement and education, I recommend this ca.1965 recording which was only 20 years after WWII and fear of Germany was still very much current. A few things have changed since then, but the stereotype has not totally gone away. (Never mind that, given his surname, Tom Lehrer himself might well be of German ancestry.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Just as an aside, I don't think fear of Germans was very current in the mid-1960s. Apprehensions about giving Germans nuclear weapons certainly existed, and that is what Lehrer is invoking specifically. In fact the entire humor of Lehrer is based on the fact that we suddenly became great friends with the Germans after WWII, even though the Nazi thing was still fairly recent. (Another relevant Lehrer song is his one about Wernher von Braun.) The fact that we actually contemplated giving Germans (via NATO) control over nuclear arms in Europe speaks legions at how little they were feared, in fact. It would not have been politically viable in the least if they were still considered Nazis. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It can be difficult sometimes to tell what Lehrer is actually satirizing. This version includes his introduction in which he refers to "our current friends, like France, and our traditional friends, like Germany." Even now, that comment has validity. As you note, the almost-overnight conversion of enemies to allies and vice-versa after the end of WWII was startling, and it was also satirized in 1984, as I recall. I should point out that I always thought his von Braun song, though funny, was kind of unfair. But that's show biz. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There was an excellent comedy program back in the 1970s here in the UK, about an English language school in London. It was centred on a single class, full of students from all different corners of the earth, complete with extremely stereotypical personalities for each nationality. I seem to remember there being a German student in the group, too. If you're interested in stereotypes on TV (slightly different from stereotypes in real life, which again are different from actual real life), then you may want to check it out. The TV program was called Mind Your Language. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ...just so long as people realise that it was made over 30 years ago, was regarded by many as embarrassingly outdated even then, and was extremely unfunny (and certainly anything but "excellent" - was that irony?). Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have emphasised that it was made in the 1970s, and maybe should have added that it did in fact cause a public outcry with some people regarding it as racist (even though it was hugely popular overseas, and in many of the countries the students were supposedly from - some countries even made their own versions). It would never be shown in today's Britain. As for 'excellent' (this is off-topic, so I'm writing it small), well, admittedly I was seven years old at the time, but I have watched all three series since (two years ago), and I liked it for different reasons - actually because comedy was like that in the 1970s and the fact that things are different now (take a look at the Carry On (film series), and numerous others) It was all comedy, and not indicative of how individual people actually felt every day, but then so is a lot of comedy - this is why it's on TV. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I liked (some of) the Carry On films, and certainly loved the stereotyping in 'Allo 'Allo!, but Mind Your Language just felt wrong and unwatchable to me, even then (but I was older than you, and, indeed, probably still am). Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I hate that Nazi stereotype stigma that is still around. Some people at my school are like that, and I hate it. Personally I think Germans are very polite and respectful and they respect their environment, which I like. Chevy monte  carlo  16:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * and they make some pretty respectable cars too. Googlemeister (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

In Italy, we have usually a generally positive view of Germans (or, I believe, better than those of Poles, Frenchs and so on). Italians usually think that Germany is an efficent, respectable and serious nation, and is often taken as a good example regarding political or economical issues. Obviously, for us the typical German is stiff, rigid, not very friendly and a little Nazi. Italians also show a particular predilection for women from Germany (and other Northern nations) and there is a strong "positive" stereotype about female German tourist being attractive and available (don't know if it's the right word in English...). Oh, and they have nasty food, that's for sure! Italians have also a positive view of Spain (they are perceived as very similar in language and culture) but have a little dislike for France (like everyone on the planet) for their apparently sense of superiority. Generally Scandinavian countries, Switzerland and Austria fall in the spectrum of Germany. Everything east is usually not known or considered gypsies, barbarians, here be dragons...--151.51.41.94 (talk) 19:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Having been stationed in Germany with the US military, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Germans don't believe in forming lines, or "queuing up". It's every German for him/herself.  I went to a concert one time where the gates were not opened till just before the show time, and we literally were in fear for our lives because the mob at the gates kept pushing back and forth so that those of us in the middle were afraid that if we lost our footing, we would be trampled.  One Fourth of July, the base I was stationed at opened its gates to the German general public for an air show, fireworks, and American food sales.  There were no lines to buy those hot dogs, you had to fight your way to the front of the line.  Everard Proudfoot (talk) 22:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In the early 70s, German singer-songwriter Reinhard Mey wrote a song about this behaviour: "Die heiße Schlacht am kalten Buffet" ("The heated battle at the cold buffet"). ---Sluzzelin talk  23:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A recent Gallup poll of U.S. adults found 80% of respondents had a favorable view of Germany. Only Canada and the U.K. ranked higher. (Iran and North Korea were at the bottom.) Many Americans would say Germans are efficient people who make quality products (especially cars and beer). Also, keep in mind more Americans claim German ancestry than any other heritage. Of course, Germans are also easy to make fun of with their history and language. Because you can make fun of Germans without being labeled a racist (as you would be if you made fun of Japanese people, for example), you see a lot of jokes about Germans in the media; for example, it's pretty easy to guess that when Family Guy characters Stewie and Brian wind up in Munich that their tour guide is going to wind up to be a Nazi. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * On "not bad" for "fantastic" or "great", I think it would depend on the situation as well as the tone of voice. Also it should be fine for relatively ordinary good things but less so for really really good things. If your spouse came home all excited about a bonus at work or some such, "so we can take that vacation to Yellowstone after all!" Responding with dull "not bad" might be taken as uncaring. Then again, if said with the right tone of voice it would be fine. I'd be more likely to respond "oh that's great!", and probably not with "fantastic", but there's different styles of speaking all over. In general, "great" just means "very good". For "not very nice" and "horrible", it's basically the same. A friend comes to you upset and says "I was just robbed in the street by scary guy with a gun!" Responding "that's not very nice" might sound uncaring. But again, tone of voice could make it work. "That's horrible" would probably be better.


 * Calling people "sir" or "ma'am" is fine, but not required, except perhaps ceratin job-related situations or formal events. If you're just asking a stranger on the street for directions, for example, it wouldn't be wrong or weird to say "I beg your pardon, Sir, but could you tell me...", but it's fine to just say "Excuse me, could you tell me...", or "Excuse me, Sir, ..." The phrase "I beg your pardon" sounds stilted and old-fashioned to me. Then again, it's hard to go wrong by being overly polite. Pfly (talk) 04:11, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, exaggerated politeness can readily be taken as irony, mind you. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Surprising that no-one has yet mentioned the ongoing issues over beach towels - see also here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So, what's wrong with removing said beachtowel if the owner doesn't return within a reasonable amount of time (say 20 mins)? Astronaut (talk) 14:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing - apart from the obvious fact that, whatever is done, it is often a cause of tension for one nationality or another, potentially spoiling a nice holiday. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:06, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "What do people think of the Germans?" calls to mind Noel Coward's "Don't let's be beastly to the Germans" from WW2: ]. Edison (talk) 00:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just have to quote Tom Lehrer again: "Once all the Germans were warlike and mean / But that couldn't happen again / We taught them a lesson in 1918 / And they've hardly bothered us since then." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As for the beach towels. I think it's pretty normal German behaviour, because in Germany it is common to conquer things (like places on the beach, seats in a cinema and so on) by putting your stuff on it, other Germans typically don't remove it and just go and find some other spot to conquer (I think I never removed another persons stuff in my life... It is sort of offensive actually I can not tell you why, but it is...; may be like going to an american and tell him that his food is "okay", pretty offensive to an american if I got Mr. 98 right, while Germans would think of it as pretty normal)
 * I always think besides from that towel wars English and Germans, who are going abroad behave similiar, don't they? Both like to get drunk and be loud and both don't like to put sun block on because they hope they would get a tan (but they usually don't. It is just going to increae the number of their freckles).-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it's VERY important for Germans to realize that America TV shows/popular culture loves making Nazi jokes when talking about Germans. However, we don't actually think that way about Germans at all. --mboverload @ 02:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

poems for a school child to recite
Hi, Can you please name a few poems that a child of 12/13 can recite for a competition? It shouldn't be too old like Shakespeare or too new like Auden (not even Eliot) nor should it be Lewis Carrol or Lear. It should be brief as it will have to be memorised. The more rhythmic the better. It is also for a child who learns English as second language. Can you please list a few? --117.204.93.27 (talk) 12:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember a book, Committed to Memory: 100 Best Poems to Memorize, that I thought was chock-full of good choices. The comments section at the amazon page seems to name-check a lot of the good choices. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a poem that begins "Tell me not in mournful number/"Life is but a waking dream"/For the soul is dead that slumbers/And things are not what they seem", which is my favourite poem, and which I think this child would appreciate. I can't find it online though!--TammyMoet (talk) 13:28, 7 July 2010 (UTC) WHAAOE! A Psalm of Life --TammyMoet (talk) 19:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is good (and bad) poetry to be found in Popular music. Many works by Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan are outstandingly suitable for recitation but I shall not presume to know what counts as popular to the child you mention. Reciting a song can have advantages that it is easy to memorise and has inevitably a rhythmic structure that is easy to scan. I expect that the competition judges will be more impressed by a contestant's confident declamation than a simple feat of memory. In short: "The speaker should convey the message in a sincere, honest and realistic attempt to recreate the spirit of the original presentation." Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I dunno; a lot of those comments seem to imply the editor used good poets, but picked poor poems. YMMV, of course. Matt Deres (talk) 02:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In case the questioner doesn't know it, I recommend this site, which has hundreds of thousands of poems, discussion forums and so forth. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:29, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd urge the OP not to insist too strongly on "brief;" there's both added value and added interest in a longer poem. Works like The Highwayman, The Charge of the Light Brigade, and Mending Wall have stories, internal rhythms, and structures to attract interest and help sustain memory, even when the child is using a non-native language.  Keep in mind that memorization is better fostered by short, spaced practice than by longer, less frequent effort.  (One trick is to memorize verses starting with the last -- e.g., memorize verse 6, then versus 5 and 6, then 4, 5, and 6 -- each new verse serves as a trigger for recalling the later, more familiar one that follows it.)  Another possible resource is the Poetry Out Loud project. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Is Shel Silverstein too recent? Dismas |(talk) 16:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've always enjoyed Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening - it's not too long or short, not too old or recent. Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 17:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is funny to hear Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening sung to the tune of Hernando's Hideaway. One great poem to memorize and recite in Kubla Khan by Coleridge. A fine poem which is shorter is Ozymandias by Shelly. In an era when youngsters are swooning over the macabre "Twilight" series, perhaps Poe's "Annabel Lee" would work. Or a longer one by Poe, "The Raven". Edison (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When We Were Very Young, Now We Are Six et al. Also Spike Milligan (or is that too new?) -- SGBailey (talk) 21:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I knew a guy who memorized "The Raven" as a teenager. It was extremely impressive- but since it's all rhyming, regular rhythm, and tells a story, maybe not quite as hard as it seemed. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the trick is to offer poems that the kids will actually want to memorize - otherwise it's mindless drudgery that you can be sure they'll resent. When they get a taste for it, you can weigh in with the heavier, more uplifting stuff. I strongly recommend Beastly Boys and Ghastly Girls by William Cole.  Although the book was published in the 1960's (which is when my parents read it to me) - most of the poems are Victorian.  I always liked the ones about Willie and the troubles he had with his (many) sisters.  50 years later, I can still remember nearly all of them (guess how much Shakespeare and Wordsworth I remember!):
 * Willie,with a thirst for gore,
 * nailed his sister to the door.
 * His mother said, with humor, quaint:
 * "Willie dear, don't scratch the paint."
 * ...and...
 * Into the family drinking well,
 * Willie pushed his sister Nell.
 * She's still there, cause it killed her.
 * ...now we have to buy a filter.
 * ...and...
 * Willie, in a fit of glee
 * put radium in grandma's tea.
 * Now he thinks it quite a lark
 * to see her glowing in the dark.
 * The one I can't quite remember is about the little boy who wants plutonium for Xmas. Each of his parents secretly decides to buy him sub-critical masses of the stuff...with predictable consequences for the Christmas Tree.  You might also try (a little more modern) "Roald Dahl's Revolting Rhymes", but to my tastes, they don't quite reach the pinnacle of Beastly Boys & Ghastly Girls. SteveBaker (talk) 03:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In similar vein are the wonderful ditties by Hilaire Belloc, such as "Cautionary Tales" and "The Bad Child's Book of Beasts". My long-time favourite is "Matilda, Who Told Lies and Was Burnt to Death".  Highly suitable for young children.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If— although that article, crazily, does not let you see the text. Try http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm On second thoughts, probably too long and complex for your purpose. 92.28.250.159 (talk) 12:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The article is not crazy. It tells you that the text of "If" is here at Wikisource. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The link is hiden away in a logo at the bottom right - I had to look at the page several times before spotting it. 92.24.188.89 (talk) 19:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm going to be a bit (discustingly) patriotic and suggest some Banjo Patterson in particular the man from snowy river. It is rhythmic and exciting! If you want something a but funnier perhaps the man from ironbark. Telling a good old colonial yarn might well attract the judges' attention. :p Jabberwalkee (talk) 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Any reason why you did away with the capitals in "The Man from Snowy River" and "The Man from Ironbark", Jabberwalkee? --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest Jabberwocky for its interesting words, but that's by Carroll. How about The Tyger by William Blake?  Astronaut (talk) 16:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Disobedience, by AA Milne!  More rhythmic poetic fun cannot be had.  Tinfoilcat (talk) 21:31, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * How about Colonel Fazackerley by Charles Causley? --Frumpo (talk) 08:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ogden Nash http://www.ogdennash.org/poems/pretty_halcyon_days.htm is suited to this time of year. 92.29.123.127 (talk) 23:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

bastard strip
in English law what was a bastard strip —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.47.46 (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please elaborate? I can't find anything on Google etc for 'bastard strip'. -- Jack ?! 22:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Only that one entry by the IP OP. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you're referring to a bastard stripe, which I think is a term for a "bend sinister", which is a reverse bend (heraldry), that is to say a stripe on a shield running from top right to bottom left. In A Complete Guide to Heraldry it explains what one of these means, although I don't entirely understand the explanation: probably it means the owner of the shield (or rather the coat of arms) was an illegitimate child, but there may be nuances I'm not getting. (Does illegitimate mean "born to unmarried parents", or does it mean a more general "not going to inherit"?) Such a mark on a shield indicating that you're somebody's child is called a cadency, although the article doesn't mention bends or illegitimate children. And the "bend" article doesn't say anywhere what they signify, only what shape they are and what shapes they might be combined with. I'm glad the article traffic signs isn't written in that manner. 213.122.29.196 (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * An illegitimate child is one born to unmarried parents. In some cases, a child can be "legitimated" by the parents later marrying. The reason you can't find any clear rules about the meanings of different aspects of heraldry is that there aren't any such rules. There are various conventions, most of which are only occasionally followed and have varied widely between countries and time periods. --Tango (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Graftonarms.jpg mark on a shield indicating the bearer's relationship to the owner of the plain coat is called a brisure, not a cadency. Cadency is the system by which brisures are inherited.  Note also that because the plain coat may be inherited on the death of its owner, a person with a bend sinister on their arms is not necessarily illegitimate themselves, even if the bend sinister had that meaning for the original grantee.  (For example, the present Duke of Grafton, whose arms are shown at right, was certainly not born out of wedlock, but his ancestor the first Duke was.)  See also baton sinister for the diminutive. Marnanel (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I found several occurrences of 'bastard strip' on Google,though none of which were related to the OP's question-let alone mentioning English law,I'm sure of them violated it... Striking out for a minute,could it have anything to do with land and inheritances for bastards-a 'strip' piece of land claimed by a bastard descendant who could not obtain it through the standard inheritance? Lemon martini (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Speculating somewhat, but the term 'bastard' can be used to denote something shorter or smaller than standard: for example, 'bastard sword', applied in some fighting styles to a shorter-than-usual sword used in the left hand to supplement the main sword held in the right hand. A 'bastard strip' might therefore have referred to a strip of land, as employed in the Open field system, that was shorter than the other strips. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)