Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 March 10

= March 10 =

Checking Luggage without a Flight
I'm in Europe and long story short I want to send my suitcase home before I personally get on the plane about 2 weeks later. Do airlines allow you to pay to put your luggage on a plane and send it to a specific destination. I could certainly have someone from home standing at baggage claim to pick it up at the airport back in the USA when it gets there. Would the airline that I'm flying on allow me to send it early? Thanks! Jared  (t)  &ensp; 14:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Generally no. Luggage requires a passenger. In fact, if you check luggage and miss your flight, airlines usually find and remove your luggage from the plane prior to leaving.


 * Ship it Federal Express,the ship luggage all the time.


 * It's for safety reasons. You could look into shipping it. -- Flyguy649 talk 14:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * US airlines do send your luggage if you don't get on the flight, a fact which astonished me the first time I discovered it, given their claims of high security. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I find it rather surprising too. This has been a big deal ever since the Air India bombing in 1985.  I would expect an airline to send checked baggage ahead of the passenger only if they were the ones responsible for the passenger not being on the flight.  --Anonymous, 22:13 UTC, March 10, 2010.


 * Plus baggage claim is airside so how would your friend get to it? --Richardrj talkemail 14:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * In the US airports I've been to, luggage is checked in at the ticket counter and picked up at the baggage claim, both of which are outside the secured parts of the airport. In any case, he should look at shipping the suitcase through normal means. My assumption would be he's trying to save money, but in this day and age a suitcase without a passenger would raise all sorts of red flags. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * But unless it is sent from an airport that has US customs pre-clearance, the bag would have to be picked up prior to clearing customs, which is in the controlled part of the airport. -- Flyguy649 talk 14:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * (e/c) So if I understand you correctly, people who haven't flown can take bags off baggage carousels? That's... bizarre.  And it doesn't happen in Europe. --Richardrj talkemail 14:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Oops, I bet your right - baggage for international flights would be handled differently. But it is true that for US domestic arrivals, at least, you could theoretically park your car in the airport garage, waltz into the baggage claim area, and grab someone else's suitcase - although the odds are good its owner would be grabbing for it at the same time, and would politely ask you what the bleep you think you're doing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Per WP:WHAAOE, see baggage claim. This, along with experience, confirms that international flights have baggage claim located prior to Customs. Domestically, there is no control on baggage claim in U.S. airports, other than normal surveillance and security. However, people generally don't take other people's bags unless there is a case of mistaken bag identity. I suppose there are more domestic fliers in the USA, which is why it seems the norm here. Someone from Europe finds commonplace American practices bizarre? This must be a first! Coreycubed (talk) 14:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi - send it freight. Or by FedEx, DHL, etc. only problem - cost. Sorry.Froggie34 (talk) 14:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If you do ship your stuff ahead, be sure to use a service that includes package tracking. It's worth the cost if you don't want to lose your belongings. That could be registered mail at the post office (or its equivalent in your present country), FedEx, UPS, or the like. I personally would avoid any means that involves the US Postal Service.  On two different occasions in my life, I attempted to ship personal goods via unregistered mail from Europe to the United States—once from France and once from Germany.  In both cases, most or all of the items that I shipped never made it, and the USPS claimed that it was unable to track them down.  (I suspect that pilferage was involved somewhere along the way, probably on the US side of the ocean.)  Marco polo (talk) 14:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * My rule of thumb is, assume whatever you're shipping could get stolen, and hence only ship stuff that's replaceable and not too expensive. Although shipping with tracking and insurance is a reasonable deterrent. If you ship anything valuable with no tracking or insurance, you might as well stamp "steal me!" on the box. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, but note that checked luggage is also highly vulnerable to theft or loss. The best carriers still lose luggage 3% of the time, which means if you fly every day, you can look forward to them losing your stuff once a month. The way they handle it is just pathetic, in many ways:


 * 1) As noted previously, anyone can go up and grab your luggage after domestic US flights. If caught, they can just claim they mistook their luggage for yours.  If you don't see any other bags that look like yours, they could just say they have one just like it, at home, but forgot that they brought a different bag this time.  The proper way to handle it would be to check the ID of each person trying to claim a bag against the official ID tag.


 * 2) The way they collect baggage headed to different cities, put tags on it all, mix it all together, then try to pull each bag out and put it on the right cart based on the tag, is likely to cause problems.


 * 3) The open, often overloaded, carts they use to deliver the bags to the plane are also a problem, as bags can fall off.


 * 4) Connecting flights are yet another opportunity for the baggage to be pilfered or lost.


 * A more reasonable way to handle checked luggage would be to have everyone carry it with them, through security, to the gate and then the plane, and deposit the checked baggage right by the plane door for loading into the baggage compartment. I've seen them do this when they decide there's too much carry-on baggage for the overhead compartments.  Then, at the other end, you should get the baggage back right at the terminal, and have your ID checked against it.  Of course, carrying all those bags the length of a terminal might be problematic, but having enough electric carts (or just push carts) and such available would fix that issue. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Citation needed" on the 3% claim. I have taken about 180 flights in my life, a large majority of those with checked baggage, and only once did my bags fail to make the flight I was on.  And that one wasn't the airline's fault.  (Due to a change of plans I found myself at the check-in desk more than 3 hours before the flight I was booked on, but there was space on another flight in just 30 minutes.  I got on that flight, but the bag took the following one, less than an hour later.)  --Anonymous, 22:10 UTC, March 10, 2010.


 * Barring theft, the bag has to go somewhere, so it might get misdirected but it should show up eventually. I've had a bag "lost" a couple of times, but it was eventually found. It's important to include some ID inside the luggage, in case the external tag gets torn off. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * My sister once had someone accidentally walk off with her luggage. We figured it out by waiting until there was just one extra piece of luggage from the flight, which happened to look like hers. We called up the name on the tag and sure enough, she had picked up the wrong bag and not checked. Eventually she drove back to the airport and swapped it out. Annoying to say the least! --Mr.98 (talk) 01:41, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * My idea of requiring everyone to show ID that matches the name on the bags would have stopped that problem. StuRat (talk) 06:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * And added a lot of time to an already time-consuming process. I suspect the incidence of things like I described happening is pretty low (people generally want their own bags), and not worth adding an extra 30-60 minutes on to the baggage-retrieval process... or do you think that airport personnel would be able to cross-check bag tags and IDs for 150 people any quicker? Especially when, inevitably, some people will have lost their bag tags or they will be out of date or borrowed or whatever. In my case, it would have been easier if my sister had just put a big piece of yellow string on her bag so that nobody would have been confused about whose it was... it also would have cost less than a penny and taken up no additional time for anyone involved. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Checking IDs against names on bags requires no equipment and no special skills, so they should be able to provide enough employees to do that in a timely manner. For example, the stewardesses who just got off the plane can be asked to help out during this task.  They could even wake up and/or sober up the pilot, and ask him to help. :-) StuRat (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * On the 3% claim &mdash; that may approach the correct value for 'number of bags delayed, temporarily misplaced, or misrouted', but is far, far, far from the fraction of bags permanently lost (through theft or other mechanisms). This article notes that roughly 98% of 'lost' bags (which includes bags that are delayed through misrouting, failure to catch the passenger's plane, drunken baggage handler, extra security fondling, etc., etc.) are 'found' again within five days; most of those are found much more quickly than that.  The article pegs the fraction of bags which are totally and irretrievably lost at less than one in ten thousand. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:36, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Right, but not having your stuff for 5 days can be a major hassle (like having no suit to wear for that job interview), as is making arrangements to pick up the baggage, especially if you've gone home by then. StuRat (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I've had my luggage "lost" many, many times... it usually happens on connecting flights at busy airports—the people make the connection but the bag does not. It is always sent along on the next flight. At my airport they always have delivered it to my home afterwards, though it can take a day or two. Fortunately they always seem to lose it on the return end of my flight, not the outgoing, so it is not such a big deal for me. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:41, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Really, Mr.98? Do you ever wonder "What am I doing wrong?", or "Why am I choosing crap airlines?".  I've done a fair amount of air travel, but my bags have never been lost.  I know people who've had that experience, and once is more than enough for a lifetime.  To have it happen "many, many times" would seem to be getting into the realms of conspiracy.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that "a fair amount" of travel will mean very different things to different people. To some, it might be one vacation a year, while to others it may mean flying to work and home each day. StuRat (talk) 20:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I sometimes have to travel a lot (once, maybe twice a month or so). It's usually not mysterious when they are going to miss my flight—it's certain airports and certain tight connections than do it. Flying a tight connection through Denver and your bags will probably get delayed. (Fly a late flight from DC to Boston in the winter, and your flight itself will be delayed. Guaranteed.) Part of what I do "wrong" is sometimes schedule tight connections like this—because the alternatives are usually pretty awful (I don't do red-eyes). When I'm flying back home, I accept this as a possible consequence, because the stakes are low (Logan delivers late bags to your door for free). --Mr.98 (talk) 16:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That's not really practical in many cases. However, you're absolutely right that you should never put anything valuable or irreplaceable in checked luggage, especially things like jewelry and money, because there's a reasonable chance you won't see it again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * What parts aren't practical ? If you mean redesigning the gate area to include a luggage carousel, that would require some work, but they could do that whenever they rebuild the terminal next (which they seem to do on a regular basis, anyway).  There could be lots of less expensive methods, though, right down to putting the baggage in a roped off area and having the passengers point out their own bags.  Having less automated movement of baggage should ultimately cost less, though, as there's currently a massive unseen complex for handling baggage from the ticket counter to the plane, and none of that would be needed anymore.  If you mean more of a load on security, that would have been true when they didn't check luggage, but now they are scanning all checked luggage, too, so this change would just move those scanning machines from the baggage handling area to the regular security area.

It would also be helpful to have the person there to ask them about any questionable items. StuRat (talk) 20:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Travelers are already annoyed enough at the airlines, and if they had to lug all their bags to the gate instead of having someone put them on a conveyer and let a system take care of it, that might put them over the edge. I've been behind groups of tourists with lots of bags, and the thought of the extra time and inconvenience that approach would put them through is unsettling to say the least. Along with having to pay a bunch of money for those carts. Yes, they sometimes have to gate-check items, but in general the current system seems to be optimal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's no reason those carts have to be so expensive, they can soak travelers to pay for their new stadium some other way. StuRat (talk) 00:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's no reason hot dogs cost 5 bucks at either the airport or the ballpark, but they do. But even the carts were free, shlepping your family's luggage to the gate and then having to wait behind everyone else who shlepped their luggage would add a large amount of time to the process. Ugh. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * But you already have to wait behind those people while their bags are checked at the ticket counter, that activity would just be moved to the gate. StuRat (talk) 14:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The difference is that check-in takes place over a larger physical area and a longer timespan. It's not often I can say this but this time I agree with BB. --Richardrj talkemail 15:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * But you're assuming things must stay the same as they are now. The length of the desk at the gate can surely be extended to accommodate one or more person moved up from the baggage check area.  As for time, I see no reason why people wouldn't get to the gate earlier, if they no longer needed to check their bags first.  And, at the gate, they would no longer need to ask you where you are going and print out appropriate luggage tags, as obviously they already know where everybody at that gate is heading, so they would just have a pile of pre-printed tags to which each customer could add their name.  In the case where this is the first leg of a flight that ends up in multiple cities, then they could have a small number of piles of tags, each in a bin with the appropriate destination clearly marked. StuRat (talk) 17:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm astonished to hear that in the United States, any Tom, Dick or Barry can just wander into an airport and take incoming bags. That's certainly not the way it works in Britain... :O ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  directorate  ─╢ 16:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm talking theory. It's possible they keep an eye out for folks walking in off the street. But there's no guarantee. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's an article about the problem, including some remarkable photographs: . TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Our security screeners and baggage handlers remove anything of value before the bag reaches baggage claim, so there's little reason for the general public to go into the bag-theft business. -- Coneslayer (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It would certainly be possible to do this at Inverness Airport, for example. The main baggage claim is not seriously segregated from the arrivals area of the terminal, and my relations have been known to meet me in there. The airport even used to have a carousel out in Arrivals as well - I don't know if that's still there. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It is also possible at Frankfurt Airport (not UK, but Europe and one of the worlds major airports). This is irrespective of where you arrive from. You have to clear customs if you want to get from Baggage Reclaim back to the outside, but anyone (with a rough idea of the layout of the airport) can just walk up to the carousels. I've always been quite puzzled by that.213.160.108.26 (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree. I once sleep-walked right through baggage reclaim and into the public area without picking up my backpack. It was no problem to just turn around and walk back in - I kinda expected to be challenged, but by looking comfortable and as if I belonged (or by someone else sleeping on the job ;-) I managed. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Search online for "luggage forwarding", "door-to-door luggage service", and simply "suitcase shipping", and you'll find a number of services that will ship suitcases, air or surface, door to door. These services all charge (the only one I could find online that gave quotes wanted >£150 for a Europe->US transfer for a single bag); some partner with airlines so you should check with your ticketed airline and see if they offer the service or have a partner who does (it should be cheaper, but I doubt it'll be free). The security and customs concerns raised above aren't any different for any other shipped item of comparable size (50 pound packages are airfreighted around, door to door, every day. If there's a security concern they'll open it. If there's a customs concern you'll have to pick it up at a customs office. Given the costs involved, however, you may consider whether it's economic to just give some stuff to charity and lug the rest. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 19:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

So what's the deal with splinters?
I've got a couple I'm trying to find right now. It seems the biggest ones (i.e. macroscopic ones) are almost entirely painless, while the ones that hurt like hell^H^H^H^Hheck are either barely visible or nonexistent. What is going on here? Oh, and secondly, if I don't feel like getting out the microscope to remove these, how long is it going to take for the dermis to grow out and drop them? ZigSaw 16:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I wonder what small-and-decreasing percentage of readers now will get the ^H^H joke? --jpgordon:==( o ) 04:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing it somehow represents someone starting to say "hell" but then changing to "heck". Is that it ? StuRat (talk) 06:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Methinks ^H is backspace and just two of them would have sufficed. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * WHAAOE, which helps to slow the decrease. ^H. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I have a 25 year old splinter, which I don't expect to fall out anytime soon. Actually, I suspect that the wood has all dissolved, and just left the wood stain behind.  Apparently, this is a new way to get an accidental tattoo (with getting really drunk being the original way).  So it seems a splinter can go deep enough that it's below the layer of skin which is shed, and thus remain permanently.  As for small splinters hurting more, perhaps they are able to go down farther, to the nerves.  I've always found it easier to locate splinters in profile than viewed straight on.  So, if I have one on my finger, I rotate it so that anything sticking up will go into a profile view. StuRat (talk) 16:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps smaller ones hurt similar to how Paper cuts hurt so much? The article suggest it's to do with the number of pain-receptors affected in a small area and leaving the wound open to air. Either way they bl@@dy well hurt when you're not expecting them - metal splinters being the worst i've had the misfortune to experience. ny156uk (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

e-mail address of Jim Davis (Garfield creator)
jim davis's email address(garfield creator) —Preceding  unsigned comment added by Wcbwayne (talk • contribs) 18:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)  I have reformatted the question to its own section. Richard Avery (talk) 19:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt Jim Davis publishes his personal email address. You can use this link to visit the "Contact Us" page on the official Garfield website. (Their Site Map has a link marked "E-Mail Jim Davis", but it simply takes you to the Contact Us page.) Coreycubed (talk) 20:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * They also have information on how to make contact for commercial purposes (licensing, reproduction, etc), and contact details (email and postal) for Paws, Inc, the company that handles the commercial side of Garfield.--Normansmithy (talk) 12:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

how to?
how to convey a message of dismay and unhappyness wih your big boss and askk for the position you looking for..al i mean is how do i go about it,do i say, i find myself capable of taking up new challanges etc etc?hope you got this.. please help.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.140.188 (talk) 19:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're wanting to switch to another department, badmouthing your current boss is likely to do nothing but brand you a malcontent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, so try to only present the positive part, as in "i find myself capable of taking up new challanges" (although proofread it better first). If all else fails, look for a job outside the company (but don't quit your current job until you have a new job). StuRat (talk) 19:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (Hopefully, ) OP was asking how to convey a message of dismay and "unhappyness" regarding his current position and not with the big boss himself. If the request is written, I hope for OP's sake that he proofreads it first, though. Coreycubed (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

If 'big boss' means somebody in line authority higher than your immediate superior there is nothing positive to be done directly. (You would be cutting out your immediate boss.) Also never put a complaint in writing unless you are starting a formal Complaints Procedure (with guidance from Union rep, etc.). Depending on your relationship with your immediate boss you may raise the matter with him/her, informally. Test the water with a minor niggle and note the response. But you ain't going to beat the system. Best solution - probably - keep quiet, get a new job, and leave without complaint. (Your old bosses will be asked to give a reference so you must leave them happy. Good luck.Froggie34 (talk) 10:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about other places, but in the US generally companies are not allowed to make comments about former employees, either good or bad, except to verify dates of employment. That way they avoid risk of lawsuits from either the former employee or his next company. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Legally they're not, but in practice they have ways of saying, or not saying, things in references that on the surface are innocuous and not provably negative, but may be understood by other management/HR personnel as detrimental. Undocumented and unattributable word-of-mouth information can also be conveyed when they meet in business or quasi-social contexts (conferences, Freemasons, Rotarians, RAOB etc: since the employee in question can never get to know whether this has taken place, it's impossible for him/her to instigate legal proceedings. Obviously this doesn't always happen, but it's worth avoiding the risk in the first place by diplomatic conduct. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Everyone assumes the issue is negative comments. But positive comments can be a problem also. The issue is that while a given person may be right (or wrong) for a given situation, he might be wrong (or right) for a different situation. So if a boss gives an ex-employee a positive review, and the employee doesn't work out at his next place, that reflects negatively on the employee's former company. So the safest policy, and certainly at my company, is to say nothing to a recruiter except to confirm dates of service. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This is getting off-topic, but I'm fairly sure companies aren't legally prohibited from commenting on former employees, although they may decide to follow such a policy to avoid legal trouble. The First Amendment applies to bosses, too. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten the jobs I've had without positive comments from former employers. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 05:09, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah - you definitely need to keep it positive. Talk only about how the new position would be good for you - and (importantly) why you'd be a greater asset to the company in the new position than your present one.  Explain that you've been thinking about a move like this for quite a while - you don't want to make it seem like this is a snap decision.  You might even be ready with an explanation about how your old department will be able to get by without you - you probably don't want to offer that unless asked.  Be sure to point out that you'll be prepared to work harder to cover the transition - to avoid leaving a sudden hole in your old department.  Be prepared to accept an 'overlap' period where you may need to pick up tasks from the old job until they can get a replacement.  SteveBaker (talk) 03:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Coats of arms in non-European countries?
In Europe, it's common for countries and their cities have their own coats of arms. But how common is this outside Europe? Are coats of arms of countries and cities used in the Americas, Africa, Asia, and Australia? J I P | Talk 21:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's very common, would be unusual to have none. Sometime it's as simple as an emblem like that of the Imperial Seal of Japan. See List of coats of arms. --Kvasir (talk) 21:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked at a few entries on the list, and my general feeling based on this was that while every country has a symbol for both the country itself and its cities, not all of them look like what I've accustomed to think coats of arms look like. I've come to think of a coat of arms being shield-shaped, with an easily distinguishable, artistic but not overly detailed, image on it, and very few to none exterior decorations. Most of the European coats of arms look like this. In contrast, based on my quick glance at the list, most of the coats of arms outside Europe go to one of the extremes: either they are very simple designs, or overly flourishing images. J I P  | Talk 22:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll find that the Coat of Arms of Commonwealth countries follow the style of the British one, be it Canada, Australia, Uganda etc. which include an emblem shield, supporters, crest, motto etc. See Heraldry for different heraldric traditions that are as unique as culture itself. --Kvasir (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * In Gallery of country coats of arms you can quickly compare different heraldric traditions. The Coat of arms of Sweden, say, is no less elaborate than that of Cambodia. --Kvasir (talk) 22:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Here in Canada the coat of arms appears on all of our paper money (as well as the rarely used 50-cent coin). For a while around 1980 it was printed in full color and I liked the way that looked, but later designs show it in monochrome. It also appeared in full color on the Canadian Red Ensign, the old flag (never officially adopted, but generally used) that the present design replaced in 1965. --Anonymous, 22:18 UTC, March 10, 2010.


 * It is well to be aware of the distinction between a Coat of Arms, the term more-or-less correctly used to describe the heraldic design depicted on a Shield (though as the name suggests it originally referred to the design displayed on a Tabard), and a full Heraldic Achievement, often though wrongly also called a coat of arms (our article is misleading on this point) which at absolute minimum could consist only of such a shield but for most individuals usually also includes a Motto, Helm (plus Torse and Mantling) and Crest, while for higher peers, some corporate bodies, and countries it usually also includes other elements such as a Coronet or Crown, Supporters and a Compartment with Badges, etc. In many circumstances only the Shield/coat of arms, or the Crest, from an Achievement can be validly displayed on its own, which can lead to further confusion. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

It also appears that at least in the United States, cities have seals instead of coats of arms. They can be used for the same purpose for identifying the city, but I think the traditions behind them are different. J I P | Talk 05:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I would demur. In Western Europe after the rise of Heraldry in the 12th Century, the seal of an individual (usually) or corporate body (such as a city) more often than not included the individual's or body's Achievement or parts of it (shield, crest). US cities (founded largely by Western Europeans) that adopted (or altered) seals after European rule ended may well have chosen non-heraldic designs, but they would have done so as a conscious alteration to the existing tradition, not as something that had arisen independently. I confess this is surmise, and I am ready to accept evidence to the contrary. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds plausable. Modern UK Borough Councils have big wax seals, issued with their Charter by the Queen. However, they also have a coat of arms but these days are more likely to use a corporate style logo for most purposes. Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Consider also the rise of landscape heraldry; and that not all seals were heraldic, even in heraldry's golden age. —Tamfang (talk) 20:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Most states, cities, and local councils of Australia have a coat of arms, appearing on official stationary and government buildings. You can view the Canberra one here or the one for the City of Perth (a local government) here. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

WWII Poster
I'm searching for an image of a Spanish antifascist poster from WWII. If I remeber correctly, it represents a skeleton with angel wings flying over a ruined city. The main color should be red, but I'm not sure about it. I've seen it on a book a lot of time ago but now I can't find it anywhere. --151.51.61.156 (talk) 21:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Is this it? --Mr.98 (talk) 00:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Good work Mr 98!! Richard Avery (talk) 07:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't this be from the Spanish Civil War? Surely by 1939, Spain was firmly in the Fascist camp. Alansplodge (talk) 13:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I wasn't able to find much about the poster specifically. I imagine it is Spanish Civil War era. It would be nice to know exactly where it was used, who made it, etc. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it says "El angel de La Paz de los fascistas!", which translates as "The angel of La Paz of the facists!" (there's also smaller writing, but I can't make it out). Also note the skeleton angel is wearing a gas mask and has a hand formed into a swastika.  There are many places named La Paz, but, of course, the largest is the capital of Bolivia.  So, could this poster have been criticizing a political figure or party in Bolivia as being sympathetic to the Nazis ? StuRat (talk) 16:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I was able to enhance the pic to make out the smaller text. It says something like "Las juventudes libertarias lo sabran destruir !" which, I think, roughly translates to "Sabran youths, it is up to you to liberate or destroy !".  Sabran is a region in France, though, so that doesn't seem to fit.  I'm going to cross-post on the Language Desk, to see if I can get a better translation there. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I cross-posted, and here are the answers: . StuRat (talk) 17:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Which puts us back where we were... Spanish Civil War (not Bolivia). But at least we know it was probably made by the Federación Ibérica de Juventudes Libertarias. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)