Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 March 2

= March 2 =

Tarim River, Lop Nur and Yellow River
Any ideas on if the Tarim River in the Taklimakan Desert in northern China reaches the Yellow River during extreme floods, or if the Shule River draining out of Lop Nur, which Tarim empties into, is hydrologically connected to the Yellow River's upper reaches? Shannon  talk   contribs  01:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems to go a different direction. See Tarim River and Godzareh depression. Rmhermen (talk) 02:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As our article on the Lop Nur states, the lake is endorheic, that is, it has no outlet to the sea. The Shule River drains into the Lop Nur, not out of it.  The entire Tarim Basin would have to be filled with an inland sea whose surface was more than 1000 meters above sea level before water to flow into the Yellow River.  Marco polo (talk) 03:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Wait, one problem: The article about the Godzareh Depression says that it's in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the Tarim River is in Xinjiang, China and is nowhere near the Godzareh Depression, so how could the Tarim and the Godzareh be related? Nor does the Godzareh article mention Lop Nur.  Shannon   talk   contribs  06:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Marketing

 * -- 174.21.237.55 (talk) 03:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

13 (number)
Is 13 an unlucky number??? why do you think so? according to whom it is unlucky??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.241.195 (talk) 06:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Read Triskaidekaphobia and see what you think. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Many people (myself included) consider it to be a lucky number.   D b f i r s   08:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 13 has associations with pagan and witch rituals - there are 13 lunar months in a year (more or less) and a lot of pagan rituals and festivals follow the lunar calendar. further, witch covens supposedly contain 12 witches, with the 13th person being the invoked devil or demonic figure, and also gather on a lunar cycle.  superstition...-- Ludwigs 2  08:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just want to enlarge on Ludwigs2's "supposedly." From my studies of historical and current Paganisms and Witchcraft/Wicca, those traditions themselves did not and do not attribute anything negative to the number 13, 'covens' never had any set number of members, and the various relevant religions/traditions did not invoke "the devil" or "demons," which were Judaeo-Christian concepts alien to them. Wiccans generally assume that the 13−witchcraft association was like much else attributed by mediaeval churchmen inventing excuses to persecute, who derived it from their own 'number at the Last Supper' superstitions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, that sounds correct. sorry, I was speaking from the Christian subjective, and I expect that non-Christians have a decidedly different view of it.  -- Ludwigs 2  02:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No apology necessary, Ludwigs2. I was as I said "enlarging" on an aspect of your answer, not objecting to it per se :-). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It is only "unlucky" (whatever that means) insofar as the group of those who agree to it being unlucky agree. It's sort of not different than a club forming whose basis is to detest the unluckiness of the color green.  Unless such information has been provided from outside the vagaries of human intellect (such as by divine revelation, perhaps), how could the whim of a person contact and affect the infinite, intangible nature of a number to define it as unlucky?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 13:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a poser. I'll have to get back to you, after I've studied my astrology charts, tarot cards, and several Bazooka bubble gum wrappers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's sort of the rationale I give to why a time machine is impossible. Now granted, Aristotle would have denied the existence of the possibility of one object moving another object without physically touching it (something we can today describe as magnetism)...and perhaps I will be similarly disproved when the time machine is indeed built, but I'd sure like to know how it works.  Because time literally exists outside of our existence, in that time is independent of our actions, how could one so to speak "tap into it" -- how would that possibly be accomplished?  How would a time circuit be linked to time itself?  So how could a number be unlucky, and if it 'twer, how would we ever know about it?  Unless such information originated from a similarly independent, pervasive, all-powerful entity (similar to the rules of math, I mean), how could/would we justify such an assertion?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 17:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Because space literally exists outside of our existence, in that space is independent of our actions, how could one so to speak "tap into it" -- how would that possibly be accomplished? How would a space circuit be linked to space itself? I just don't see how we could ever possible build a machine to travel through space. :P I've seen a lot of objections to time travel (beyond that which we do automatically in one direction at 1 s/s), but this is the first time I've seen someone use 'time exists' as the reason! 86.177.121.239 (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I had to read your post at least twice before I noticed that you were mocking me. Be that as it may, space is tangible, while time intangible -- that would be the distinction between my assertion and your suggestion.  Our tire grips the road and we can therefor pull along, our sled rail presents little friction upon the ice and we can therefor slide faster than one might ordinarily suppose.  But time is a measurement of occurrence.  So we can affect space, but we cannot affect time.  It is an independent variable of sorts within the 'experiment' of life.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 05:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Making a white mask that drapes over one's whole head
Hi, I'm looking for a cheap way to make a mask that drapes over your whole head, prefably with cloth, like how the Slender Man looks like. Any way I can go about doing it? --116.14.194.30 (talk) 06:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Buy a single bed sheet from your local market. You can stick it together with sticky tape. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And stay out of the Southeast US.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 13:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * In case you didn't catch it, DRosenbach is almost certainly referring to the ku klux klan. And his advice is very good.  I have no idea what "Slender Man" you are talking about, but the white mask symbol is considered to be extremely hateful (I'd say in all of the USA, but especially the Southeast) and this is not a message that you want to convey unwittingly. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 14:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * From my understanding of the "slender man", the OP is looking for something more like the headpiece of a Zentai suit than a KKK hood. FiggyBee (talk) 14:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, from looking at Ultra_Monsters and Ultra_series I gathered that this character is from a Japanese genre. Given that the IP maps to Singapore, the OP "ain't from around here" (to use the Southern vernacular) so it probably won't be an issue.  We're just being a little over-cautious, I suppose. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 14:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I had no idea what the OP was talking about, so I Googled "Slender man" and got something entirely different from these "Ultra" things that you're referring to.  It's been a few days but the Slender Man that I came up with was a creation of a discussion forum from what I recall.  They made him up only to have people start reporting "sightings" later on.  Dismas |(talk) 05:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * These not good enough? (attached image to the right). --Mark PEA (talk) 18:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Those in the photo should be from V for Vendetta, that this "anonimous" group uses, I don't think it's what he is looking for. Anyway this "Slender Man" has a solid white mask, without holes, (see here) or very similar to a skeleton (here).--Amendola90 (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Help finding a BBC news story?
In the car just a few minutes ago, I heard a news story from the BBC about the Boy Scouts in Palestine. They were talking about how the people from England brought the scouting movement to Palestine. And then the Scouts were part of the riots against the people from England. I'd like to find a link to that story online but I can't seem to. Can anyone lend me a hand? Dismas |(talk) 09:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Which BBC radio station were you listening to? You can probably listen to the broadcast again for the next few days on the BBC website.  I can't find an online news source either. --Richardrj talkemail 09:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It was on the American NPR affiliate near me. Dismas |(talk) 09:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember hearing the item, which included a clip of a Palestinian piper playing "Scotland the Brave". I think that the original item was broadcast on the 1st March edition of BBC Radio Four's daily Today programme. Programme is available on BBC iPlayer here. The whole programme is 3 hours long, but the item you want is probably between 30 minutes and 1 hour in. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Finding items on Today is easier than that if you refer to the daily summaries on the Today page of the BBC website. Yesterday's summary is here, with links to sound files.  Unfortunately, however, there's no mention of Boy Scouts or Palestine.  I've checked the previous few days' summaries as well, no sign of it there either. --Richardrj talkemail 09:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tried searching the BBC website for Scouts+Palestine but nothing looking like this came up. Dismas, do you remember who the reporter was? It sounds to me more like a FOOC item than a Today item. DuncanHill (talk) 10:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's From Our Own Correspondent, for those not in the know. The FOOC website here divides recent shows up into chapters as well, but nothing about Scouts or Palestine is coming up there either.  What strikes me is that this doesn't sound like a news item.  Unless I'm missing some present-day angle from Dismas' description, it sounds like a historical thing. --Richardrj talkemail 10:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I had a quick look on teh BBC website but couldn't find anything. we do have Palestinian Scout Association, but its history is weak; if the audio is found, could a link be added to our article? BrainyBabe (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have now confirmed that the item was broadcast on the 1st March edition of Today; BBC iPlayer link is here; timestamp from 0:47:15 to 0:51:20. No point adding link to article, though, as BBC iPlayer only makes programmes available for a limited time after broadcast - generally a week or so for most things. Warning - contains bagpipes. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks. Looks like those daily summaries I mentioned don't include every item broadcast, which seems pointless. --Richardrj talkemail 10:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks all for the help, especially to Gandalf! Sorry for the delay in getting back to this subject.  Dismas |(talk) 05:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Just found this slideshow with audio about this story . DuncanHill (talk) 19:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Missing euro coins and banknotes
Why aren't there any regular euro coins with the nominals ½ eurocent (or 0.5 eurocent), ¼ euro (or 25 eurocent), or 5 euro? Why aren't there any euro banknotes with the nominals 1 euro, 2 euro, or 1000 euro? --88.76.18.70 (talk) 09:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There would be no demand for the first two coins, since they are too small to be worth bothering with. A 5 euro coin would be nice.  1 eur and 2 notes aren't necessary because we have those as coins.  (Interestingly, the British £1 note fell out of favour and was replaced with the coin, but in the USA the $1 bill still holds sway over the corresponding coin.)  Much of the eurozone is more cash based than the UK or USA, but I'm not sure there would be much of a demand for a 1000 eur note either. --Richardrj talkemail 10:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The pound note didn't fall out of favour, it was just cheaper to make coins than notes. DuncanHill (talk) 10:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It fell out of favour with me. --Richardrj talkemail 10:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If any other British banknotes fall out of favour with you, I'll take them off your hands for a very reasonable fee. DuncanHill (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) My completely unreferenced answers:


 * ½ eurocent - because the coin would cost more to make than it'd be worth (negative seigniorage). In some countries, low-value coins which are no longer worth producing have been withdrawn from circulation.  For example, the smallest circulating coins in Australia and New Zealand are now 5 and 10 cents, respectively (and see also Efforts to eliminate the penny in the United States).
 * ¼ euro - most currencies use 20 and 50 cent denominations rather than 25. The US 25 cent coin is a relic of the "piece of eight" origins of the dollar (with a decimal quarter being the equivalent of a 2 real coin).
 * euro banknotes with the nominals 1 euro, 2 euro - because there are coins of those denominations, which are cheaper/easier to make (compared to lifespan).
 * 1000 euro - because there's not much demand for high-value notes with today's credit and debit cards, and they'd be prime targets for counterfeiting and organised crime. I'm surprised that the 200 and 500 notes exist (see the 500 euro note article for the problems associated with it), but they may be in more demand in the more cash-heavy societies of the EU.
 * FiggyBee (talk) 10:14, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The logic may be clearer if the example of Britain is used, where coins and notes occupying similar positions have been discontinued. The halfpenny was eliminated because it was of too little value, the twenty-five pence was discontinued because it was uneconomic to make such a large coin of such small value, and the twenty pence was instead introduced soon after, and the five pounds is only issued for commemorative purposes, but could conceivably at some point follow the two pounds into general circulation.  Although there's never been a two pound note, the one pound note was replaced by the one pound coin, except in Scotland where both notes and coins circulate.  Scottish and Northern Irish banks also issue one hundred pound notes, but the Bank of England removed them from circulation during World War II, in the face of counterfeiting concerns, and have not issued them since. Warofdreams talk 13:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of us are (in my case only just) old enough to remember the withdrawal of the Farthing. As that article states, continued inflation has rendered the real worth of the current "one pee" less than half that of the farthing at its withdrawal. The logic of value alone would suggest that the 1p coin should be discontinued, though this would also make the sum of 3p unattainable.
 * After UK Decimalisation on Decimal Day in 1971, which both increased the value of the smallest available monetary unit and removed an entire 'step' in the currency (since £1=20s=240d → £1=100p), many of the public formed the impression that retail prices began to rise more steeply. My conjecture at the time was that the removal of the 19 'psychological barriers' of the shilling steps made price increases less noticeable and memory-based comparative shopping more difficult.
 * I have never seen a formal study of this, although text near the end of Decimalisation - "decimalisation in the United Kingdom . . . studied by the European Central Bank . . . the likely effects on inflation . . . where one euro cent . . . was greater in value than the smallest coin in circulation before the transition." - suggests that there have been some. Anyone got a link to such? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

A Song of Hope Oodgeroo (Kath Walker)
Does anyone know when the poem "A Song of Hope" by Kath Walker, was first published? If you can tell me from what book, of which Kath Walker wrote, it comes from then I can work it out from there? Thanks. 220.233.83.26 (talk) 11:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This (page 2) says that it was written in the 1960s. Perhaps first book publication was in The Dawn Is at Hand (1966)—at least, it's in a 1990 edition with that title (page 65, according to the Table of Contents). That's not conclusive, since sometimes the same title is used for collections with different contents, but it's suggestive. Deor (talk) 12:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Choice
What is the term used to describe a choice were either option is as bad as the other? Think it might be a biblical term thanks. Mo ainm ~Talk  12:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a no-win situation to me, but I can't come up with a Biblical reference. Morton's fork and Hobson's choice are not quite the same thing;  in the former, all roads lead to the same (bad) conclusion, and in the latter you don't really have any choice at all. FiggyBee (talk) 12:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not choosing should technically be considered a choice. Googlemeister (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ... a choice that's clear &mdash; I will choose free will. Hope you're happy; no telling how long that'll be playing in my head now :-). --Trovatore (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Scylla and Charybdis? (Though that's from Greek myth.) More prosaically perhaps, Between a rock and a hard place. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Between the devil and the deep blue sea is another one, though again, not Biblical. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Zugzwang is one possibility, but it quite specifically refers to a situation where one player [in a game] is put at a disadvantage because he has to make a move – the player would prefer to pass and make no move. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If biblical you want perhaps you are thinking of Balaam's ass more about someone trying to force you into a bad choice really though.  meltBanana  12:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Classically, this is a dilemma. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The Talmud uses the term mimah nafshach, although this doesn't refer to bad choices -- it's loose translation would be, "either way, it makes no difference." As that's the Oral Torah of Judaism, I'd say it meets the biblical criteria, but it probably wasn't what you had in mind...but it could be now.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 13:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or as the sage Yogi Berra said, in one of his more famous comments, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * A dilemma. "A circumstance in which a choice must be made between two or more alternatives that seem equally undesirable;" Reference: dilemma Nslonim (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Could it be the term "splitting the baby"? It comes from the Judgment of Solomon in the Book of Kings where two women were arguing over which one was the mother of the baby.  Solomon wisely decrees that the baby be cut in half, whereupon the real mother, in order to save the baby's life, instead begs for him to give the baby to the other (false) mother.  Solomon used this deceit to discover the true mother's identity and the baby was returned to her.  Apparently the legal profession sometimes (mis)uses this phrase in situations where something must be divided. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 13:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First thing that came to mind was Sophie's Choice. Livewireo (talk) 15:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You could be between a rock and a hard place, or about to jump from the frying pan into the fire. -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or damned if you do, damned if you don't. -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My folks' favorite: "Between the devil and a man eating possum" (which somehow calls up the image of a guy with a cooked possum on his plate.)Edison (talk) 20:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Fun Websites
Big fan of Neil deGrasse Tyson. What science websites are similar to his approach to astronomy?--Reticuli88 (talk) 14:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. For some reason a link to www dot badastronomy dot com comes back as being on the blacklist, yet it's linked in Phil Plait's article. If you're looking for more astronomy, that's a site I'd check out (and associated blog). Matt Deres (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * How about Sten Odenwald's Astronomy Cafe? --TammyMoet (talk) 17:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be about astronomy. Just something to do with science. Thanks tho, Tammy! --Reticuli88 (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Underground levels
What is the structure with the most underground levels? --88.76.18.70 (talk) 15:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? Please be more specific. Do you mean underground levels in a carpark, a building or something like that? Or do you mean an underground railway like the London Underground in the UK? Chevymontecarlo . 16:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * What is the building with the most underground levels? --88.76.18.70 (talk) 17:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in this discussion thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-281375.html) which covers this. The link to here (http://www.hep.umn.edu/soudan/brochure.html) shows a building which is apparently 690m below the surface. ny156uk (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Apparently, the Petronas Towers have the deepest foundation of the world's above-ground buildings, so it may have the most underground levels. According to this site, there are nine underground levels, five of them for parking.  Marco polo (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm currently working onsite at an almost finalized pumped-storage power plant, and we have twelve floors underground. Well, seven of those are just for the staircase, the lift shaft and for access to pipes and ducts, but still. There is a powerhouse with the control center and transformers on top of all of those floors, so technically it is a building with that much underground. Of course that may not be what the OP is looking for, but I'm sure there's even deeper PSPPs out there, this one is relatively small. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Wouldnt it probably be the deepest mine in the world, the TauTona which is 3.9km deep? Some oil rigs have many undersea levels in their 'legs'. 89.240.206.83 (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

YouTube quicklist auto-delete and YouTube HD
Is there any way to set quicklists up to auto-delete videos after they have been viewed? Also, just what type of monitor would you need to use YouTube HD and watch videos that have been filmed in high definition? Thanks. Chevymontecarlo. 16:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See the article YouTube for a table of the formats used. PC monitors including laptop screens are available to display the formats up to HD (High Definition) 1280x720. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Police officer regulations regarding running red lights:
I'm trying to find out whether highway patrol officers in California are required to have their flashing lights and/or siren on when going through a red light. I'm in California but the law may be similar elsewhere, so anything you know would be appreciated. (I need this information quickly.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.101.212 (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be normal way in the UK.  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This link is the California Vehicle Code. This section of it is titled "Authorized Emergency Vehicle", which has three links by "Rules of road applicable to".  This link is a list of rules that such vehicles are exempt from, if "the vehicle is being driven in response to an emergency call or while engaged in rescue operations or is being used in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law or is responding to, but not returning from, a fire alarm..."; and if "the driver of the vehicle sounds a siren as may be reasonably necessary and the vehicle displays a lighted red lamp visible from the front as a warning to other drivers and pedestrians."  To answer your question, I think the answer is yes; but you'll need to read through more of the vehicle code to be sure; I only browsed it for a few minutes.  There may be some other regulation filed under "traffic signals" or the like that lists exemptions to the rule you have to stop at a red light.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds to me like they have to have their lights going, but the siren is at the discretion of the driver. --Tango (talk) 23:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

In Ontario both lights (specifically, a flashing red light; blue is for snowplows) and siren are required and they also have to stop before entering the intersection. By the way, police can do it anytime they're on duty, but ambulances and fire departments can only do it in an emergency (e.g. going to a fire, not back to the fire station.) Highway Traffic Act, section 144, subsections (1) and (20). --Anonymous, 04:28 UTC, March 3, 2010.