Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 May 11

= May 11 =

British Rail Class 390
Is the coaches part of the train or are they seperate as in the British Rail Mark Coaches? --Tyw7 (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 01:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * According to our article British Rail Class 390, they are electric multiple units, so the coaches are an integral part of the train. DuncanHill (talk) 01:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Price/volume calculation.
Honest question here, sorry if it seems like I'm trolling. Okay... how many bathtubs could one potentially fill to the brim with $10,000's worth of fondue? For simplicity's sake let's say this tub, though I don't actually care which--just going for a semi-average one here. This one is 60"x30"x14", so 2,100 cu.ft. (seems large for a tub...). Also, USD. Cheers & thanks in advance, · AndonicO Contact. 01:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks large because you got it wrong. To convert from cubic inches to cubic feet, you divide by 12&times;12&times;12 = 1728, not 12. --Anonymous, 03:05 UTC, May 11, 2010.


 * Looks like you're halfway there. Find a fondue recipe, and price the ingredients.  Let us know what you get.  If you have trouble finding a particular price or recipe, feel free to ask. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's a recipe from our sister site WikiBooks. Fondue neuchateloise. No idea if it's any good or typical or cheap. Just the first one that came up on a search. APL (talk) 02:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, a pound of cheese is quite a lot, and that's around half a wine bottle. Most of the other ingredients are relatively inexpensive. I would say for simplicity's sake, let's call it $50, since it would seem to me that the price could vary wildly depending on where one shops. · AndonicO Contact. 10:12, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Bus identification
Does anyone know what make and model bus is? I know it's London because of the destination blind but I can't quite work it out. I'm trying to add a description to it. Chevymontecarlo. 04:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, could someone help me identifying the buses on this page too. They're on the first three rows of the page. Thanks. Chevymontecarlo . 04:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * For the first one, here's a list of busses on the W3 line (the pictures of the busses seem a bit outdated, though): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_London#Bus_types_in_use_10 Rimush (talk) 08:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The first one looks to be a Plaxton President, possibly (from Rimush's list) on a DAF DB250 chassis. In case you're unaware, Chevy, busses used by large operators are usually bought as a chassis only, looking something like this.  The body is then built on separately by another company.  Thus, two busses with the same chassis can look completely different, and two busses with completely different chassis can look almost identical.  Very tricky! As for the rest, File:W7 BUS.jpg and File:W7 Bus at Crouch End Broadway.JPG also looks like a Plaxton President.  The Metroline article says the VPL class is based on the Volvo B7TL chassis.  File:W6_Bus.jpg is a First DM, Dennis Dart SLF chassis, Marshall Capital body.  File:W5_at_Harringay_Superstores_Terminus.JPG, File:W5 bus at Crouch End.JPG and (presumably, it's hard to tell at low resolution) File:W8 Bus.jpg are Metroline DLMs, Dennis Dart SLF chassis, Plaxton Pointer body.  My bill is in the post. :) FiggyBee (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hahah lol! Thanks for your hard work! Chevymontecarlo. 15:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish I could recognize busses like you, FiggyBee Rimush (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You know a lot about double-deckers for an Australian, Figgy. Kittybrewster &#9742;  17:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've not always been an Australian. :) My grandfather was a bus driver in Leicester, and I've researched busses fairly heavily for a certain hobby. FiggyBee (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

English Language
Why they say fell in love instead of rise in love. Is love something bad that they use the word fell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.160.108.121 (talk) 07:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This might be better at the language desk. Otherwise, one obvious point is the suggestion that it's something you have no control over, which is the salient feature of 'falling' over 'rising' (since neither are inherently good or bad). 131.111.248.99 (talk) 07:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * (after edit conflict) I agree that it feels more like rising than falling, but perhaps it has something to do with the effort required - falling requires no effort to accomplish, in fact it is very difficult to resist! English has lots of "fall" expressions like this, and French has "tomber amoureux".   D b f i r s   08:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a conceptual metaphor. They don't always follow a strictly literal logic. There are a lot of different "love" metaphors. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect it has to do wih the suddenness of it, wheras 'rise' usually implies something gradual. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  16:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think 131.111.248.99 and Dbfirs are onto it. To fall into something (like love, or bed, or an open manhole) requires very little effort, while to rise requires effort (as in "rise to the occasion"). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Damn you Bugs! I'll now have Climie Fisher in my head for the rest of the day!DuncanHill (talk) 13:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe override it with the Beatles' "I've Just Seen a Face": "Falling, yes I am falling..." Or the Johnny Cash classic, "I fell in to a burnin' ring of fire..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A little PIL did the trick :) DuncanHill (talk) 00:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Chinese Mountains
Why do Chinese mountains look steep and tall? Is there a particular name for them? Homework2 pass a note sign!  17:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Which Chinese mountains? China has a huge land area, and there are many notable mountain ranges within its borders.  -- Jayron  32  17:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You are probably referring to the karst formations of South China, the best-known of which are those of Guilin and Yangshuo. China has many other mountain ranges that are not especially steep or tall.  The Himalayas, while very tall, are not unusually steep.  Marco polo (talk) 18:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * They are not the karst formations. I am not sure where they are from...I have seen such mountains in chinese art. Also there are some on my Windows Vista backround wallpaper. Homework2  pass a note sign!  19:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it isn't Mount Fuji? Or an abstract impression of an idealised mountain? 148.197.114.158 (talk) 22:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the granitic formations of the Huangshan, they also turn up in many works of art, lots of nice views in the gallery of that article. Mikenorton (talk) 22:20, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am guessing the OP was referring to Huangshan, not Fuji - Fuji is decidedly NOT steep and tall. And it's in Japan. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible to upload the file to a photo sharing site like Photobucket or maybe do a screenshot of the background? Then we could maybe identify the exact location. And then answer the original question. Dismas |(talk) 23:20, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Tower karst?, , and . Oda Mari (talk) 05:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Huangshan mountains look decidedly like them. They are the same type of weirdly tall steep mountains. Are mountains like that just in China? I know there is none like that in America. Homework2 pass a note sign!  15:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Their unusual shape is down to a combination of the rock-type, granite and the prolonged but episodic uplift and erosion of the granite since it formed in the Early Cretaceous (ca. 125 mya). The first uplift, in the Eocene (ca. 50 mya), unroofed the granite and eroded it down to a nearly planar surface. The second uplift in the Miocene (ca. 20 mya), caused further erosion forming a denudation surface before the final stage of uplift in the Late Pliocene (ca. 2 mya) modifiying the shape of the granite yet again.(see for more details). Strange shapes are not that unusual in granite, but the vertical scale of those in the Huangshan is. Mikenorton (talk) 16:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, we do have Half Dome and El Capitan in the United States. Marco polo (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Alrighty. Thanks for answering my question. Homework2  pass a note sign!  18:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Vacation rules
Here in Finland, of the seven days of the week, only Monday to Friday are normal working days, Saturday and Sunday are considered vacation days for most jobs, but of course not all, seeing as someone has to maintain the infrastructure every day.

Still, we have a strange vacation policy. If you take an entire week off work, it's going to cost you six paid vacation days, although it's only going to make a difference of five days, seeing as you don't have to work on Saturday anyway.

I've heard from my Australian co-worker that in Australia, if a public holiday that's fixed on a date instead of a weekday falls on the weekend, you get the next Monday off work automatically. It doesn't work like that in Finland.

What is the situation elsewhere in the world? J I P | Talk 19:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * UK: Week's holiday for a 5-day a week worker costs 5 paid days. Public holidays falling on a weekend result in a Monday holiday, iirc. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You are correct. --Tango (talk) 20:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's the same in the US. If a holiday, like New Year's Day for instance, falls on a Saturday, you generally get Friday off.  And a week's worth of vacation is five days.  Dismas |(talk) 20:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If a fixed federal holiday (Independence Day, Veterans Day, New Years' Day, Christmas, and in election years Inauguration Day) falls on a Sunday, government workers (and most others) get Monday off. Also, if Christmas falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, the federal government is traditionally also closed on Monday and Friday, respectively; if Christmas falls on a Friday, as it did in 2009, the government is closed early on Thursday. Xenon54 (talk) 20:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What we have is all holidays that we normally have off (there are a specified 11 of them) that happen to fall on a weekend gives us one extra vacation day, which we can use at any time during the year, but not the next Monday off. Googlemeister (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So with the Finnish system - when you take a week off - and consume 6 days of vacation time for 5 days off work - do they pay you extra money for that extra day? If they do - then it's kinda nice - you get some spending money to use while on vacation.  If not - then it's no different from the British/USA system - except that you have to mentally multiply the number of vacation days you get by 5/6 to get the "real" number of vacation days.


 * What I don't understand though is what happens if you decide to take a four day vacation?  Do you then lose just 4 vacation days?...or is it 4x6/5 = 4.8 days?  Do they even allow you to take shorter vacations?  Here in the USA, details vary - but in my job, vacation time is measured in hours - and I can use as little as one hour of vacation time and (for example) go home an hour early - or take 40 hours and disappear for an entire week.  Perhaps the Finnish system is an incentive to try to make people take shorter, more frequent vacations instead of taking a full week off?  I could see the business sense in that.
 * SteveBaker (talk) 20:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * My employer's system is the same as Steve's on the hourly point. I can take an hour of vacation on a Friday and have an early start to the weekend if I like.    Another thing that might be worth mentioning is that all of our "time off", while it's seen as separate by the company, is seen as all one "bucket" by the employees.  We get a couple days for sick leave and then a number of days for vacation.  Nobody thinks of it that way except for the bean counters in Human Resources.  We all just think of it as one lump sum.  Dismas |(talk) 20:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Vacations are measured in full days, not individual hours. You only lose the additional paid vacation day if you take at least five consecutive vacation days. They don't have to start on Monday, a long enough consecutive vacation is enough for Saturday to count among the vacation days by itself. I'm fairly sure you get the same vacation pay for the extra Saturday as you do for any other vacation day. There is no multiplication by 6/5, all vacation days are the same, except that at least five consecutive days cause Saturday to be counted as a vacation day. It might sound like it's intended to encourage people to divide their vacations into shorter periods, but at least according to my employer, it's the contrary, they want people to keep their vacations as consecutive as possible. J I P | Talk 19:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that would work because you get a bonus day's pay if you take five consecutive working days of vacation. The pay per day and vacation entitlement in a year remains the same whether you take long or short vacations, but taking longer vacations means that you work and get paid for a few extra days in a year.  This is probably seen as an advantage to most employers because they don't need to recruit as many staff to cover vacations or to pay as much overtime.    D b f i r s   08:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Nothing surpasses (in lameness) the Chinese system - if a festival falls on a weekday, you get the weekday off and report to work on the next Saturday. Very few real holidays here, just lots of shuffling of weekends around. For this past Spring Festival, allegedly we all had "2 weeks" off, which would be 16 days in another country (weekend + work week + weekend + work week + weekend) but the truth of the matter was we went back to work on a Saturday, so we had only 14 days "off" and then 7 days on! 61.189.63.174 (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify--the OP says that in Finland, "Saturday and Sunday are considered vacation days for most jobs." That's not true in the U.S., in two senses.  While most people with full-time jobs work five days per week, the remaining two days aren't considered "vacation."  They're "days off (from work)."  In other words, they're your own time to do with as you choose.  Vacation, whether earned by the hour or by the day, is time for which you receive your pay although you're not (technically) at work.  So, when I had a job working Sundays from 2 pm till 11 pm, followed by 6:30 am - 3:30 pm Monday through Thursday, my days off were Friday and Saturday.  Under the contract at the time, I was entitled to two weeks' vacation, meaning a total of 10 days for which I would be paid without having to report to work.
 * Whether vacation is earned by the hour or the day, and how it must be taken, is generally up to the employer. I worked for a Fortune 50 company at which we could not carry over unused vacation from one year to the next.  If you were entitled to 3 weeks' vacation in 2009, that meant you needed to schedule fifteen days with your boss and take them, because at the beginning of 2010, you would lose them.  And, yes, that means you didn't get the vacation pay; in the company's eyes, you got paid for the time you actually worked.
 * Unlike many industrialized countries, the U.S. does not guarantee any paid vacation to workers, as the Center for Economic Policy and Research documented in No-Vacation Nation.
 * ...sorry, forgot to sign the above. --- OtherDave (talk) 20:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In NZ you only get the public holiday on the Monday after the weekend if it's one of the Christmas holidays or one of the New Year holidays. However the only other holidays we have that aren't a fixed day of the week (usually Monday) are Waitangi day and ANZAC day. See Public holidays in New Zealand for more details.
 * In Malaysia they do always carry forward but only if they fall on a Sunday (or Friday in some states*) not if they fall on a Saturday (and a number of holidays always fall on Saturdays e.g. Yang di-Pertuan Agong). This is mostly? because Saturday is traditionally a half day for civil servants (schools don't usually have classes although they may have compulsory co-curricular activities on some of those days) and some private businesses also follow the 5 and 1/2 working week although most now use a 5 day working week and the government has also largely abandoned the 5 and 1/2 working week.
 * * Some states have Friday as the rest day instead of Sunday akin to a number of Muslim countries. Those that do so have Saturday as the other rest day or half day I believe although I think it use to be Thursday and changed also akin to a number of Muslim countries Workweek.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

BBC election coverage: music
Does anyone know who composed the music for the BBC's election coverage, including that of this night's events (thinking particularly of the montage shown at about 20:55 UK time of Brown leaving and Cameron arriving)? It's referenced but not named here... Thanks! <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► CANUKUS ─╢ 20:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought the same thing after watching the montage and immediately Googled it. This article says it was a piece composed by Richard Blair-Oliphant (who apparently has got a long list of TV themes to his name) and recorded by the BBC's orchestra. Xenon54 (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Aha—nice one! (He's going to be getting an email now, I'm determined to have that on my MP3 player if it's the last thing I do!) <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► stannator ─╢ 21:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you heard the preview on the BBC website? Matt's talk 16:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

UK logic question re changing car
I have an old VW Golf with registration document, insurance, MOT, disabled tax (which is free), parking permit (which is free) and congestion charge (free). I have bought a new (to me) car which has tax to 31 May and long MOT. I can not have 2 free [anything] at the same time. I can not have 2 parking permits at the same time. I live on the border of the congestion charge zone so that is not a big issue. Vendor of new car is happy to let me use her garage (for new car) until I have sold old car which I hope to do soon. How and in what order do I get the proper documents and permits attached to the new car without damaging my the ability to sell the old one? I assume the purchaser will not be disabled and will not live in the same borough (and therefore won't need the parking permit or congestion charge permit). The first thing is to register the new car in my name. What then? Kittybrewster <font color="0000FF">&#9742;  20:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. The person selling the new car to you must (by law) have a V5C Registration Certificate naming her the Registered Keeper. She must fill out Sections 6 and 10 (of 11) with your details, both of you must sign and date Section 8, she must give you Section 10, and send Sections 1-8 to the DVLC, who in due course will send you an updated V5: this transfers the Registration to you. [Caveat: some details of this may have recently changed slightly, but the Certificate is very clear.] The same procedure applies when you sell your old car.
 * 2. As the new car's Road Tax disc remains valid only to 31 May, you may have trouble renewing it yourself if the DVLC are slow to transfer the Registration: I suggest you get the previous owner to renew it before completing the sale, taking the cost into account in the buying price. You must either renew the old car's tax disc when it falls due, or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) to the DVLA (and then keep the car off the road until you sell it) as instructed on the V11 Renewal Notice (which you'll receive a couple of weeks in advance): the latter may create inconvenience and delay for the buyer.
 * 3. The new car's MOT will remain valid until its expiry date, and by the time you need to renew it you will be the Registered Keeper, so there should be no problem there. If you don't sell the old car before its MOT runs out, you had best renew it or neither you nor the eventual buyer would technically be able to drive it, or be able to tax and ensure it.
 * 4. Take out insurance on the new car in the usual way (you can arrange this in advance to commence from a given date), and notify your insurers when you sell the old one. Should be no conflicts there: I always use a small Insurance Brokers within walking distance of my house so that I can conveniently discuss everything with them.
 * 5. As soon as you've sold your old car, notify the appropriate authorities in order to transfer your Disabled Permit ("tax"? - don't quite understand that) and Parking Permit to the new vehicle (for which they'll probably require sight of your Insurance Certificate) - be careful of the timing to avoid having to street-park it un-permitted or the wardens will pounce - you may be able to use some of your Visitors Permits as opposed to your Resident's permit (if your Borough or whatever issues those) to cover a few days. Neither of these permits should be "transferable" to the buyer of your old car as they are person- or address- specific.
 * 6. I know nothing about the Congestion Charge procedures, but I would have thought any documentation you have should either tell you or at least give a contact number to ask advice.
 * Hope this helps, though I bet I've slipped up or omitted something somewhere. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Famous Streets Dimensions
State for us the overall length and the overall width of The Fifth Avenue in New York City? and also for the Avenue Princess Grace in Monaco? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.223.201.188 (talk) 22:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No. Load up Google Earth and measure them. FiggyBee (talk) 22:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not a very nice response... Plus not great advice - depending on your zoom level my street is either 2 millimetres wide or 3 centimetres wide, whereas in reality it's probably around 8-10 metres wide... Gazhiley (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I respond more nicely to questions than to instructions. Google Earth includes measuring tools; 5th Avenue appears to be 45 feet wide (at least at the point where I measured it) and 5.6 miles or 9.1 kilometres long .  Avenue Princess Grace is about 1 mile or 1.6 kilometres long and of variable width. FiggyBee (talk) 11:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, It just wasn't the friendliest way of responding to someonewho doesn't necc speak english and therefore didn't know the correct way to phrase it... Just saying... Ta tho for responding I've leartn something new about GE... Gazhiley (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise 5th Avenue continues on the other side of Marcus Garvey Park. It's actually 6.8 miles or 10.9 km, including the 300 metres through the park. FiggyBee (talk) 13:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

for a book I am writing
A strage request this, but I need some ideas of places where people could go on a date. Two teenagers, they've already had a romantic candlelit meal together, she and her friends have already walked past the cinema and seen there is nothing at all worth watching, and they are in a little town with not much to do. Slightly unusual suggestions would be particularly appreciated, and they are only going to be together for a few more days, so it doesn't really matter how great a day out it would be, I just need somewhere for them to go together so I can write the next chapter. Oh, and it's February, so probably still a bit cold out.

148.197.114.158 (talk) 22:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What part of the world they are in might have a considerable bearing on the question. --ColinFine (talk) 22:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sitting in a car, looking at a sheet hung on a clothes line, and pretending it is a drive-in movie screen might qualify (actual case study). Edison (talk) 04:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Museum or historical society building; study date at the library; Lovers’ Lane; fun fair or circus; a walk in the park or swim at the pool/lake/river; picking wildflowers or fruit; babysitting. . . DOR (HK) (talk) 06:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * ...but not baby making.--Artjo (talk) 06:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Cow tipping yehaw! Googlemeister (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * February? That pretty well rules out a "roll in the hay" at the unheated barn. But there are other options. Make a snowman. Throw snowballs. Go snowmobiling. Make snow cream. Anything with snow is good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It's set in England, in 2012 if anyone cares, there isn't likely to be snow, and if there is noone will be expecting it, and if there were enough to build a snowman, noone will be able to get to where anyone else is with all the roads closed. 148.197.114.158 (talk) 21:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You could have them sitting in a house watching re-runs of England's triumphant victory in the 2010 world cup where they beat Spain 7-0 in the final to lift it... After all, even in 2010 there's constant excerpts from 1966 around so there's bound to be something on the TV from winning it in 2010... And before anyone comments, this book sounds like a fictional one so therefore in a fictional world we might win this year! Gazhiley (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As a Canadian, I find it amusing that enough snow to build a snowman results in roads being closed. Here, unless your car is at least halfway buried with no hope of digging it out, we pretty much carry on :) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Roller skating, bowling, mini golf, amusment park, arcade, pool hall, pub band or other concert. Vespine (talk) 01:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * February, eh? Maybe watching the Super Bowl and/or the Winter Olympics? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Constants
What are some constants, physical or mathematical, that are known to a very low degree of precision or decimal places? I know the gravitational constant is very hard to measure- what else is similarly difficult? 149.169.35.22 (talk) 23:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See Physical constant, especially the table at Physical constant and below. Any value without "defined" under Relative Standard Uncertainty should be what you are looking for. As mathematical constants generally are accompanied by an algorithm to calculate them, there are probably few (in my non-mathematician's opinion) that are very uncertain. <font style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> Intelligent  sium  00:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mathematical constants aren't measured at all, so they're not subject to uncertainty, though sometimes they'll be plain unknown. (For a simple example, consider the solution to Graham's Problem, called $$N^*$$.  All we know about it is that it's at least 11, and it's smaller than Graham's Number, which is a constant so huge it takes a large portion of the article to explain how vast it is.  It utterly dwarfs anything in the observable universe.  You might think that it's a long way to the Great Attractor, but that's peanuts to Graham's Number.  Listen:  this number is so big I get kinda distracted by it.  Where was I?)  Actually, come to think of it, $$N^*$$ is a great answer to your question.  It's a finite natural number which could be eleven, or it could be so mind-bogglingly vast that...  Okay, I'll try to calm down. Paul (Stansifer) 03:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "The Universe is Big. Really big. It may seem like a long way to the corner chemist, but compared to the Universe, that's peanuts." Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy DOR (HK) (talk) 06:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm glad someone caught the reference. Turns out the original is phrased differently than either of us had it: "'Space,' it says, 'is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen ...' and so on."  Whenever I try to recreate a Douglas Adams quote from memory, I discover that he was a lot better than I am at choosing the right words.  Paul (Stansifer) 00:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)