Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 September 11

= September 11 =

ALL CAPS
Not sure if this is a computing, humamities, language or other question. As a regular here on the reference desks I see my fair share of posts all in caps, and have on occasion reminded them that shouting is not necessary. I'm curious though: on every keyboard I've ever used lower case is the normal situation and I have either has to hold down the shift key or press caps lock to get the all caps effect. So why do some posters press extra keys to type in all caps even though it makes their post look different from everyone elses, more difficult to read, and having seen other all caps posts attracting criticism for shouting? Astronaut (talk) 00:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Several reasons that I've seen/deduced:
 * The user is an asshole who believes what they have to say is a lot more important, profound, urgent, and thought-provoking than any of the other mindless crap that's in the way.
 * The user is an attention whore.
 * The user is not an asshole, but still thinks their question is urgent and needs to be answered straightaway. (This may be accompanied by capitalizing only part of the question.)
 * The user forgets that their capslock is on and somehow doesn't notice, OR the user is too lazy to turn capslock off.
 * (The only legitimate excuse:) The user is a senior citizen who has trouble seeing what they are typing. These people should probably be congratulated for embracing technology!
 * Along with the lack of punctuation that normally comes with shouting, some shout to hide their embarrassing lack of grammar skills.
 * Xenon54 (talk) 00:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO WIND YOU UP, Astronaut. IT'S PERSONAL ;) --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I doubt the posters who do so have "seen other all caps posts attracting criticism for shouting". My experience is that all-caps writing is something that inexperienced web-users do, or people parodying inexperienced web-users. Presumably they think it makes their writing stand out more, and attracts attention (which it does): they haven't learnt that the attention will be negative, and they do not know netiquette. Young users, especially, tend to the CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL view, whereas older users seem to genuinely think it makes their message more understood :/ They are swiftly disabused of this when they contribute to something like this page, but I would hardly ever attribute malice. 86.164.78.91 (talk) 00:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * One that wasn't mentioned, which I've run into in my few years of running a message board... The user is ignorant to the fact that there's anything wrong with it to begin with and doesn't know that there's anyone who is bothered by it.  Dismas |(talk) 00:58, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps the user is a Kanye West fan. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 01:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * A looooooong time ago, when laptops first came out, they had badly designed keyboards that made it difficult to type with normal capitalization. Consequently (on early internet forums), some users took to typing in all caps because it looked better than typing in all lowercase in simplistic computer terminal fonts.  It rapidly proved itself annoying, and so the reasonable people stopped doing it, while the people who wanted to be annoying took it up.  whaddayagonnado.  -- Ludwigs 2  01:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

We actually have an article about this: All caps. As it explains, "It was once an inevitable byproduct of using machines with limited support for lowercase text (such as certain early Apple II models)". It tends to be the old folks like me who do it, because they think it is what they are supposed to do on a computer. Looie496 (talk) 01:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * To explain a bit further, before ASCII was developed in 1960, the majority of teletypes and terminals only supported capital letters. As our ASCII article says, "Before ASCII was developed, the encodings in use included 26 alphabetic characters, 10 numerical digits, and from 11 to 25 special graphic symbols.". Looie496 (talk) 01:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ...And one other factor that's worth mentioning. (Sorry to keep adding things here.)  To people with very weak keyboard skills, pressing two keys at the same time can be seriously difficult. Looie496 (talk) 03:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I honestly doubt this has much to do with it. I would guess that hardly anyone has chosen to use such a restricted character set since the mid-70s and the last time I saw a teletype machine in use was in 1978.  The modern internet generation has had computers that support far more characters for a long time now and I doubt they are even aware that such restrictions ever existed.  Astronaut (talk) 03:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it isn't the modern internet generation who are doing this. It's the clueless. Looie496 (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I know someone of my age (mid-40s) who does it. He does it because he's a rather laborious typist anyway, and finds it easier just to whack the caps lock on and type the whole lot in upper case rather than do the hold-the-shift-key-down-press-the-key-to-insert-capital-release-the-shift-key thing at the beginning of each new sentence.  (He also hand-writes in block caps for the most part, as his longhand script can be quite scruffy).  He's intelligent, literate and not at all personally aggressive; he just doesn't seem to have effortless motor skills where writing and typing are concerned.  If the subject comes up and I point out that what he does is considered "shouting", he replies that the content of what he writes speaks for itself, people need to get over their misperceptions and prejudices, he's been writing notes to people in block capitals since he left school in 1983 and he's not going to change that just because someone invented the concept of online shouting.  Me, I wouldn't dream of posting online in block caps; however, my pet hate is people who respond with abbreviations, textspeak, Lolcat and similar in response to a message written in standard English.  I find it exhibitionist and rude, react particularly badly when the mis-spelling is utterly unnecessary, such as "boi" for "boy", and (fairly or not) tend to categorise such people, who are mainly from the "modern internet generation" Looie refers to, as the clueless ones, and quite likely to be illiterate into the bargain.  We tend to regard our own preferences as the norm, and anyone who deviates from them as incorrect.  "Shouting" in caps is just another example of such an assumption.   Ka renjc 09:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe they're trying to deal with Space Invaders. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Consider this, then, Karenjc: There are various ways of emphasising text, of making it stand out.  There's bolding, underlining, italicising, making it small or large, using ALL CAPS, and some other ways.  The norm is not to use any of these things.  When they're used, they're used sparingly, for a particular effect.  People are meant to sit up and take notice of them.  So, WHEN SOMEONE TYPES THEIR ENTIRE TEXT IN ALL CAPS, IT REALLY HITS THE READER IN THE EYE. The writer might not be intending to come across like that, but they do anyway.  I met my partner online, and when we first got chatting, he used all caps all the time.  I had to ask him to stop doing it because it really put me off, and I knew enough about him to know that being put off was definitely not where I wanted to be.  He quickly obliged once I explained to him that I felt like he was shouting at me every time he opened his virtual mouth.  Why did he do it to begin with?  When he writes with a pen, he always writes in block caps, except for his signature; it's just a preference he adopted as a child.  So, when he started using computers, all caps felt completely natural to him.   And he encountered enough like-minded users in the online forums he frequented to make it an acceptable practice there.  So along comes Jack and says "Sorry, pal, I'm here to upset your little apple cart.  You have to do as I ask, or there's no relationship".  Well, anyone in their right mind would obviously immediately comply, wouldn't they.  :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   10:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * * Bizarre flaming of Jack for saying people are 'meant' to do what he does.* How dare you suggest there are conventions! Who are you to quash my freedom to use italics and caps as I please? I'll do what I want. Rah rah rah! 86.164.78.91 (talk) 11:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, some (most?) of the 8-bit machines of the 80s produce capital letters by default, and lower case when you press caps lock. My ones did, anyway (the BBC B and the Vic-20). I admit it's tenuous since these could barely go online (telnet, perhaps?), but it's a theory. They also refused to understand commands issued in lower case - for instance, on the BBC, the command print "hello world" would get the response Mistake (in lower case, ironically enough). 213.122.17.213 (talk) 12:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I noticed a recent question in ALL CAPS - I think it was about bodybuilding - which gave me the impression that the querent (who started off writing that way, then remembered we don't like it, excused himself and continued in lower case) not only normally wrote in caps, but participated in a forum where everybody else did too. I expect there are people who routinely exchange emails in capital letters. I think it's a cultural thing, like a dialect. 213.122.17.213 (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree. And for the record, Jack, the person in question is my husband of 21 years.  If some bizarre plague robs us of speech and reduces us to communicating only by notes or email, I hope I can be as persuasive on the caps issue as you obviously were with your partner, otherwise I may find end up a lonely cat-lady in purple in my old age (or an expert on semaphore).  Ka renjc 12:58, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd also add that yes, caps are indeed used for emphasis just like italics, underlining and so on, but they also have an additional function - they are sometimes specified for clarity, as with handwritten job applications or other official forms. It would obviously be silly to stop completing such applications in block caps now that an internet convention has arisen that it's a "shouty" thing to do, but while the perception exists that caps can legitimately be used to make your meaning crystal clear, I expect we'll still get people who prefer to use them for everything.  Ka renjc 13:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Some of the questions typed in all caps come from people in countries where other scripts (alphabets) are used. On someone using a keyboard designed for another language, it might be relatively easy to type in Latin capitals but more laborious to type in lower case. Also, the person might not be used to communicating in written English and may be unaware that using all capitals on an Internet forum is considered impolite. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have a friend (and I don't know if this is relevant) who is dyslexic. He gets told off for always writing emails, text messages, etc in all caps, but after years of hounding he still does it. I'd think a dyslexic would actually find it easier to type in lower case but whatever the reason he can't seem to avoid uppercase! Spoonfulsofsheep (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Photo upload
I am trying to upload a photo of the Salem, Ohio Cry Baby Bridge. I uploaded the photo to Wikimedia Commons, but would like to upload it to Wikipedia to show the photo of Cry Baby Bridge on Egypt Road in Salem. How can I accomplish this? All attempts have failed. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalemccartney (talk • contribs) 03:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not take a look at how commons images are added to other articles - it is a good way to learn how to do things in Wikipedia's markup. An example can be seen in the lead section of the river article.  Astronaut (talk) 03:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * see help:File and help:Image. images on commons can be used in wikipedia without any extra effort.  -- Ludwigs 2  03:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

You upload to commons then link from wikipedia, using the same name. Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 14:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Photograph of Indian Actress
Long ago I saw a photo of Indian actress Kajol. She, wearing a skirt, is sitting on a studio chair in a lawn, reading a paperback. I am dying to see that pic again. Can someone please be kind enough to tell where I can see it. Thanks. Jon Ascton   (talk)  03:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I searched and found lots of images of Kajol, but none were as you describe. Astronaut (talk) 08:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, man. But I already did that, on google and all. Do you know some source else, it will be worth it. That's one of the most beautiful pics ever. Jon Ascton    (talk)  05:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

toys
Do MacDonald make the toys in happy meals, or do they contract another company? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coaosusr4545 (talk • contribs) 13:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * They will buy them in. --Rojomoke (talk) 16:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I amended the above response after finding that Rojomoke is a user, not a place ;) --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Help identifying a model
I'm trying to identify the model in several photoshoots. The first March Maxim 2008 by Naomi Kaltman, the second a June 2007 issue of Blender. Anyone know who she is? Lirva84 (talk) 14:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If it was a fashion shoot, then it should say who the models were. Otherwise, Naomi's web site is here http://www.naomikaltman.com/contact.php?pageSelect=contact (macromedia flash based website). You could ask her agent for the model's name and agency. CS Miller (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Does she look anything like Avril Lavigne --Aspro (talk) 15:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Taking photos facing the sun
Are there any basic tips for taking photos when facing towards the sun? I take a number of photos of buildings, and sometimes it can't be helped when they are facing north (I'm in the northern hemisphere). As you can see from the two examples, one looks fine and the other looks kind of crappy (originally, the second one featured an extremely bright sky and really dark building, so I had to mess around with the contrast/brightness levels a bit to make it presentable, which is why it looks a bit blurry, I think). The camera I use is decent and I can manipulate basic stuff, like I said, like brightness or contrast levels, but are there any tips, either when actually taking the photo, or when doing post-photo adjustments, that would help when I have no choice but to face south? Alexius Horatius  17:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Set it to spot or center metering mode and expose for the main  subject. Also a Gray card would help.--Aspro (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I try to shade the lens (and if it's got a separate sensor, the light meter), either with my hand or by hiding behind something like a telephone pole (which works okay for shots like this, where the sun wouldn't be in the scene anyway, but is screwing with the meter). If it's something close (good for a person, not really for a large, more distant object like a building) fill flash or a fill card can illuminate the shadowed subject, bringing the scene more into the dynamic range of the camera's sensor. At various times I've tried setting the camera to spot meter (as opposed to multi-point metering) and putting the spot right on the interface between the dark building and the light sky; I'm not sure whether that really helps, but give it a try.  Some folks use a short exposure (and a consequently a larger aperture) with film, but I'm not sure that this matters for a CCD - if your camera has a "sport mode" or "action mode", try that. Lastly there's high dynamic range imaging which (if done with taste and moderation) might be just what you need. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 17:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the basic tip for taking photos facing the sun is to not do it. You can minimize the damage but you're never going to get quality results that way, unless you're looking for a silhouette effect. Looie496 (talk) 17:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, you have it on auto exposer - this is too hit and miss . Put it on “manual”  (between S and SCN on the knob on the top), use the instruction manual to set it to 'spot' and experiment by metering off different parts of the landscape. SCN on the knob stands for “scene” modes or landscape shots. Try that as well as it will give the aperture and adjust other things like colour and sharpness. Play around with 'P' as well. This will automatical choose speed and aperture but it is not always right for what you want. And browse thought this tutorial. . Enjoy!--Aspro (talk) 18:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh! competently forgot ....SCN also has Backlight  setting  for just this sort of problem. It'll be in the  instruction manual.--Aspro (talk) 19:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

You could try out HDR photography. Some people like it; some people don't. I don't like the extreme versions, but used delicately it can be effective. Probably my most successful effort at it was not all that delicate, and I didn't like it at first, but an ex-girlfriend did, and I decided it wasn't as bad as I'd thought. You can see it here if you're interested. --Trovatore (talk) 08:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comments, everyone. I'll look into this stuff. I had started taking photos for Wikipedia with essentially no photographic experience whatsoever, so these tips will be good for some on-the-"job" training. Alexius  Horatius  15:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Salary scales for different graduate careers
Anyone know where I could find average salaries for different stages in various careers? Such as a year after graduation, then 5 years after, then ten and so on. In the UK if possible, but anything would be interesting to read. Thx :) 144.32.126.11 (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Income in the United Kingdom may be of interest. schyler (talk) 02:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

How did they film it?
In the film Inception, how did they film the scene where they're in the hotel corridor and there is no gravity, and everyone just floats? Was that all computer generated? J I P &#124; Talk 19:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * JIP, for someone that's been around the RefDesks long enough you surely don't need to be told to RTFA and WHAAOE? Inception (film). Note that the scene in the corridor doesn't have anyone floating, they just keeping walking on the floor/walls/ceiling. Zunaid 20:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * See http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-magazine/archive/2010/08/play/behind-the-special-effects-of-inception Everard Proudfoot (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

A blend of CGI and real footage. Most special effects are CGI based nowadays Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But with Inception the amount of CGI was minimised in favour of filming real looking stuff, such as this rotating corridor and blowing up models. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Is there a website that alerts intelligent people to nutters?
Today, at my local UK supermarket, I drove very carefully between rows of parked cars looking for a suitable space for my disabled wife at about 5 MPH when suddenly a 10-12 year old boy ran out from the parked cars directly into my front end. I slammed on the brakes and narrrowly avoided hitting him before he looked up in alarm from his mobile phone which obviously was commanding his low IQ attention. He ran to an adjacently parked car where a man, presumably his parent, was also playing with his mobile phone. I opened my door and called to the man (father) that he should spend some time teaching his son how to avoid being killed by oncoming traffic by keeping his attention on the road. Result? I was afforded a mouthful of expletives that recommended that I should pay more attention to my driving. When I retorted that I had been driving at less than 5mph at which speed I had probably saved his son's life when he ran blindly in front of my car the father's response was that I should pay more attention to my driving?

My wife told me to let it go as both the father and son were probably the local "Asshole and Son".Co. Uk.

I have tried to put that episode behind me but I am still astounded that a father, who witnessed his son's stupid behaviour in moving traffic, would immediately spring to his stupid son's defence, against a non-agressive driver who had nearly killed said stupid son.

Have I been on the planet too long? And should I volunteer myself for voluntary Euthanasia????

92.30.181.122 (talk) 23:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Among my teaching colleagues, an old saying we share, after finding that the parent of one of our dopier students shows equivalent dopiness, is The apple does not fall far from the tree. It's a statement about Genetics. HiLo48 (talk) 23:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, a modern social phenomenon that I have noted is that modern shopping centre car parks are designed exclusively for cars, with no real provision at all made for pedestrians to to move around them safely. (Although I suspect that such provision may have made little difference for the above-mentioned 10-12 year old boy.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * OP, you threatened the father's sense of parenthood. If you had just yelled out first to the son something like, "Hey, kid, 'look both ways', huh?  I damn near just hit you!" (or some other good advice, in context) the whole thing might have gone differently. And I think your question about voluntary euthanasia may be impermissible per Kainaw's criterion.  Wiki Dao   (talk)  23:49, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * OP, first let me congratulate you on slamming the brakes on hard at 5mph - must be pretty hard to do. I find that hard enough on a bicycle. Anyway, just let it go. It'll happen again, no doubt, and no doubt with someone else. No point in worrying about it. If the father had a go at you, it was because he was defending his kid and also himself against your accusations of bad parenting. Doesn't matter whether you were right or not - he won't see it that way - never will. Just let it go, and drive carefully. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Darwin is constantly at work, improving the gene pool. Edison (talk) 03:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't really want to say that, though, considering we are talking about kids here. Idiotic parents, yes. But they are not the ones whose skulls would be popping under the wheels of the car in the OP's scenario. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  04:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Parents who neglect their young are less likely to pass along their genes to future generations. Foolish/careless youngsters are less likely to pass along their genes as well. It works either way. Edison (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And people like the OP, Ed? What of them?  (Note that the question does specifically ask for advice as to whether the OP should seek some means of discontinuing his life for the "good" of all.  Should he?  Or should the pedestrians he may happen to run over in his scorn for their idiocy be better culled for the good of all, as you appear to endorse in your response?)  Wiki Dao   (talk)  04:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, that's two references too many to genetics in this thread; see nature versus nurture. I'm not at all sure that genetics could turn somebody into an asshole (have there been any twin studies on the matter?) ... but it seems entirely plausible that upbringing could transmit bad ideas about human interaction from father to son. Then again, it seems pure subjective opinion that either one was an asshole, just because the son was careless and the father got ruffled when challenged. It's worth pointing out that you don't know what's going on in other people's lives. You assume they were preoccupied and "playing" with their phones because they're idle and anti-social and uneducated; but maybe it was because, for instance, some kind of family emergency was taking place which necessitated that they both keep in touch with others as the situation develops; or perhaps the father was in fact on the phone to the son, who is, say, chronically insecure, and he was right at the point of taking his first steps away from the parent (supported by phone communication) when you spoilt it all by frightening him with your car. Who knows? 81.131.46.171 (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're saying they could have been Replicants from a UFO for example? 92.15.25.239 (talk) 19:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that reasonably unlikely things are likely to be happening to at least a few of the people you encounter on any given day that you encounter a lot of people. If perfectly ordinary and predictable things happened to everybody all the time, that would be really weird, and I would demand to know what was causing it. If human experiences aren't typically awkward and complex, there's something going on. 81.131.66.179 (talk) 22:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The father saw your criticism as threat against his dominance. For him the merit or truthfulness of the criticism was irrelevant - only issues relating to loyalty or not are important. A lot of people are unconditionally machismo and can only think of us against them. They probably both had an IQ of 70. Wonder if either of them are reading this, lol. 92.15.25.239 (talk) 19:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Too bad we don't have the father and son's perspective on this. From their side it looks like some asshole was screaming at them for no reason. The OP probably has rage issues, maybe road rage specifically. Maybe he should pay more attention to his driving. Maybe he's too old and his reactions are not as quick as they used to be. Maybe he is frustrated with the way his life turned out, and resents having to drive his disabled wife around, but understands that it is not her fault and doesn't want to take out his frustrations on her. Maybe he doesn't make enough money to support his family in these circumstances. Yelling at random people on the street could be his way of releasing his anger. Perhaps the kid was just walking normally and had to get out of the way of the OP whose driving skills are not as sharp as they once were, and the kid's father saw the whole thing and rightfully pointed this out. How can we say? All we have is the clearly biased and subjective observations of the driver. We have only been told what he wants us to know; is any of it true? I would suggest that the solution for the OP is "don't be an asshole", or if he insists on believing that everyone else is an idiot, he should just get used to it, because obviously with this worldview he will run into "idiots" numerous times everyday. But don't be surprised if other people have taken the same view and treat you as an idiot too. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Any time you comment negatively on someone's parenting skills, they are going to react negatively, no matter how right you may be. The reaction may be especially strong if you are actually right, since no-one wants to face the fact they may have failed as a parent. That doesn't mean the father didn't spend the rest of the day yelling at his kid for being such a moron. It does mean the father felt it was none of your business. Franamax (talk) 20:10, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the two comments above are being unfair to the OP. The OP was alert and avoided crashing into the kid, and was going at a responsible speed. It unreasonable to dream up fantasies that justify the parent's behaviour or to imagine things about the OP and then criticise them for that. That is like arguing "if he was a vampire then he would be a very bad person, therefore he's a very bad person". 92.15.30.158 (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't rule out the possibility that they might both have been genuine assholes. For that matter they might have been murderers. The point is that the OP doesn't know, and any snap impression of their moral values based on the fact that some stuff happened and he got yelled at is almost certainly wrong, so the best attitude to take is to shrug it off due to lack of available data. 81.131.66.179 (talk) 22:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I worked in an area that was 'deprived' in the UK and in the 3 months I was there I had 2 close calls. (I have never had an accident in 15 years btw.) Once I had to swerve to avoid an adult who walked in front of me in a 40mph zone and on another occasion I had to brake hard to avoid going into the back of another car on a 60mph road when a kid ran out in front of him (the car in front braked so hard he had smoke coming off his tyres). That's on top of the countless times I had to slow down without panicking. Certain areas have people who are unable to cope with their own life let alone teaching their kids to look out for cars. How we fix that problem is beyond me! Spoonfulsofsheep (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that a lot of less able people seem to live in a small personal bubble where they are seemingly unaware that there are other people in the world or that they require any consideration. 92.15.30.158 (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If a driver says he was going 5mph, he was probably doing 20. At least that is the conventional wisdom of law enforcement.  Googlemeister (talk) 14:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)