Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 April 14

= April 14 =

unreasonable termination
I work for a cleaning company. Today we were on our way to clean up a house (in the company car) & i realize we are making alot of stops where we are literally just sitting there and waiting for about an hour. My teamleader was trying to get drugs.(i know this because I hear her talking to another team leader who is also in a company car ) & she has done drugs on the job before) I was really angry with her & told her to do that on her own time & she gets mad at me and we begin to argue. I tell her I am not going to work with her because first of all shes using my work time to look for her drugs & get high, second shes totally rude when i tell her what she is doing isnt fair. So she calls my boss and tells him I am sick and can't work. Which is a lie because i didn't want to work with her because she spent my work time looking for drugs! but of course she wasn't going to tell the boss that, anyways about an hour ago I recieve a phone call from my boss telling me that i am being terminated from the job because I argued with my team leader & refused to work. So i tell him what happened and he doesnt acknowledge anything i said and basically hangs up the phone. Do I have a case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mj991185 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The Reference Desk doesn't give legal advice, and for your own good you should consult a legal advisor, not anonymous randoms on the internet. Depending on where you live, perhaps you can contact your trade union, a community legal service, or any lawyer who deals with this type of law. If illegal drugs are involved then maybe you can consider reporting this to the police. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:01, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't even call the police. I would find a lawyer first and see what he advises. He might advise calling the police, or he might not. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Bugs, in relation to the police, I was referring to the bit where the OP alleged that the co-worker was dealing in (or using? not entirely clear) illegal drugs, which sounds like something you would call the police about. Not the employment law part. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the inherent dishonesty of the former employers, turning them in to the cops could seriously backfire, as they would probably say it was the fired employee that was using the drugs. That's why I wouldn't call the cops. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Like Bugsy says. Don't bother calling the police. What happened to you was common everyday social injustice. not a crime. the police are not interested. If you're in the U.S. Most struggeling attornies will give a first consultation for free because they are trying to find clients. All you need is the yellow pages and a phone. I suggest getting free consultations with three or four because they don't all agree on what is possible. And the upside of that is even if you don't get any positive results from any attorney, after three or four consultations you'll probably be ready to just forget the whole thing and get another job.190.56.125.187 (talk) 03:06, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 190, in some other countries you can get better (or more objective) first point of contact legal advice from trade unions rather than private practice lawyers. In some cases the trade union lawyers may even offer the full suite of services up to and including appearing in court on behalf of the employee. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I seriously doubt that you could ever gain financially by taking such a case to court. Even if you win (which seems unlikely without any actual proof that what you said is true), legal fees would likely be more than any settlement.  So, I'd chalk it up to experience and move on. StuRat (talk) 07:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's legal advice, which we're not supposed to do. The OP should consult a lawyer and determine for itself whether it's worth the effort. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * @190.56.125.187 it is presumptuous to declare that the police are not interested. They are employed to investigate and act on drug related crime, and you can have no idea what supporting information the police already have. For all we know they already suspect that a certain cleaning company is a mafia front for drug dealing, and a witness on the inside is what they need. I advise the OP A) be absolutely sure what you observed i.e. names of both the company car drivers, what drug dealing you have actually seen, what money exchange, whether any of the drug activities seemed routine (e.g. meetings that are likely to continue now you are out of the way) and be very clear about what you said to your boss about drugs at work and his (non)reaction. B) Ask politely at the police station to report drug dealing. Be clear about the facts because you will probably be talking to a front desk cop who will decide within a minute whether to call a detective to hear you. C) At the risk of sounding rude, you will not get the attention you deserve if you come across as a cleaning woman with a gripe. You will offer to help the police in their job which is crime, not your termination which is a civil matter. Do you have a civil case? My guess is Not Yet. But if the police do identify drug crime in the company, you may (ask a lawyer! ask a lawyer! ask another lawyer!) have a presentable case as a terminated Whistleblower for whom courts show varying degrees of sympathy. See the linked article for private organizations in the US and UK that should give you realistic free advice on your chances and may even fund your lawsuit. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The OP needs to realize that the former employers may very well have thought of everything you've just mentioned and may well have a counter-story ready to go. That's why consulting with a lawyer (or multiple lawyers) is an absolute must. The OP has to have its ducks totally in a row and in the right order. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In relation to the criminal matter: in some countries there is a duty on some people to report some crimes so I wouldn't ever advise someone not to report a crime they know of unless I was sure that was legally aboveboard in their jurisdiction.
 * Drugs offences are treated extremely seriously in some cases, punishable by death, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a duty on the OP to report. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's premature to assume the OP is from the UK or the US. For all we know they could be from Singapore or Tanzania. Or Canada or Australia.
 * In relation to the employment matter, I say again, if there is a trade union that offers employment type of advice where the OP lives, they could well be the best choice in terms of expertise, dedication and cost. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Nuns with Guns
I have seen this picture a few times and I was curious as to the origin. Could anybody help me out? Americanfreedom (talk) 05:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "Well, kids are a lot tougher these days, and whacking them with a ruler just isn't getting the job done." :-) StuRat (talk) 07:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The picture has flat perspective, no shadows where you'd expect them and abruptly sharp outlines on the figures. I think it's a Photoshop creation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Could well be. It's all over the internet, but the source is not certain. One use of it has been with a caption suggesting that these are the "virgins" that await terrorists in the afterlife. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:36, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick google search turns up lots of hits relating to Rage Against the Machine. Pfly (talk) 11:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It was on RATM merchandise long before Photoshop was around...not that it couldn't be faked some other way, of course, but apparently it's a real photo, and Tom Morello thought it was hilarious, so they bought the rights to it. But the band doesn't know where it comes from either. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? 1990: Photoshop 1.0 released. 1991: Band RATM formed. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:30, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, well I guess I was thinking of Photoshop as used by people to create stupid things on the Internet. Anyway, the photo is probably still real. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It could be "real", i.e. not manipulated, but those might not be real nuns. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Or, shockingly, it could have been manipulated in the many ways available before Photoshop. Stalin had people removed from photos decades before this. --NellieBly (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

HMS Astute: Why is murder by a sailor on a sub a crime for the civilian courts?
A British sailor, while on duty allegedly fired the weapon he had been issued as a sentry, killing a Lt. Commander and wounding another naval officer. How on earth is this a crime to be tried in civilian courts? See. Does the UK have military courts as they did in the 18th century? Edison (talk) 05:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Two points: first, the article states that the military agreed to try the case in civil court, implying that the military had jurisdiction but passed it on. As to why they might have done that: the ship was docked at the time, and not on combat duty; there was no active state of war; there were apparently civilian dignitaries aboard at the time of the shooting.  The Crown may want to pursue charges that the military can't, or the navy might not want the sub tied down in port for the duration of a military trial, or...  likely the reasons for shifting the case from military to civil courts will be spelled out in the case, so patience will bear fruit here. -- Ludwigs 2  05:36, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Part of the issue seems to be that the submarine was not on maneuvers, and was docked at the time of the incident. While the UK certainly does have military courts, see Military Courts of the United Kingdom, it says that "The Court Martial may try any offence against service law, which includes all criminal offences under the law of England and Wales." (bold is mine).  The use of the word "may" indicates that they are not obligated to try all criminal cases, and the specific details of the case (that the murder occured while the submarine was docked, in the presence of civilian authorities who were touring the boat) may have led those who decide these things to decide that it would be better to try the case in civilian courts. -- Jayron  32  05:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not uncommon for British soldiers who commit serious crimes (even while on duty) to be tried in civilian courts, e.g. Lee Clegg, and Kevin Williams, charged for murder in Iraq. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's normal for serious offences by members of the armed forces (that break civilian law, not just military law) to be tried in civilian court in the UK. I think the idea is that the law should treat everyone equally, so everyone should get tried in the same court. Murder is murder, the fact that he was a member of the armed forces shooting a senior officer on a naval vessel doesn't make any difference. I think the only time they would use a military court was if the trial would involve classified information (or possibly for convenience during wartime). --Tango (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "A hearing at Southampton magistrates court on Monday was told by Nick Hawkins, chief prosecutor for Hampshire Crown Prosecution Service, that the director of service prosecutions had agreed to hand over jurisdiction of the case to the civilian courts." Alansplodge (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I've just realised that Ludwigs2 has already covered this point. I suppose that the Navy would want to be seen to be having the whole thing dealt with by an external authority rather dealing with it internally and risk claims of a cover-up. Alansplodge (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea about what the actual answer to this is... but I would be inclined to believe the newspapers on this one. Shadowjams (talk) 07:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Celebrity Influence
Are there any specific examples where a talk show host, celebrity or political pundit significantly and single-handedly boosted or lowered public opinion of a politician or someone running for political office. Sorta of a weird question, but it would be great if someone could think of a time this happened, because possibly other than Glenn Beck and Van Jones, I can't think of any off the top of my head.--ChromeWire (talk) 06:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Walter Winchel was famous for doing this type of thing, and specifically for boosting the infamous US Senator Joseph McCarthy. StuRat (talk) 07:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Boosting?  Corvus cornix  talk  01:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, boosting, where boost means "to assist in overcoming obstacles, or in making advancement". See boost and boosting. StuRat (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, I was thinking of Edward R. Murrow.  Corvus cornix  talk  17:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Some people say Obama wouldn't have been a serious contender in the Democratic primaries without Oprah. Our article on her says she may have delivered as many as one million votes for him.  And there's also the Colbert bump. --JGGardiner (talk) 08:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Long, long time ago, Shirley Temple was running for Congress. Johnny Carson did a skit in which he dressed in a typical Shirley-like dress and sang a parody song called "On the Good Ship U.S.A." This ridiculing of her attempted run for office was said at the time to have cost her a lot of votes. In any case, she was defeated in the election. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not likely that made any particular difference. Pete McCloskey won that race, with 57% of the vote; Shirley Temple Black ran as an independent, and only received 3.5%. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * When Thomas Dewey was running for President in 1948 against the incumbent, Truman, a famous woman (I forget who) remarked that Dewey looked like "the little man on a wedding cake". That was also said to have cost him votes, and Truman narrowly won the election. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Alice Roosevelt Longworth, daughter of Teddy, made the Dewey comment. . Edison (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * During Richard Nixon's run in 1968, he appeared on "Laugh-In" in a quick cameo saying "Sock it to me." It was said that this gained him some votes as it gave him some artificial "hip-ness". Maybe not as many votes as the Chicago police riot, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Saturday Night Live has sometimes affected popular opinion of politicians. Much was made of Tina Fey's Sarah Palin, and also Chevy Chase's Gerald Ford. Not sure if it affected anybody's opinion, but Dana Carvey's George H. W. Bush impression is still remembered as being spot-on, even though Bush didn't actually talk like that. Staecker (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Newspaper editor Kelvin MacKenzie effectively claimed that he won the 1992 General Election in the UK - see our article about the the now notorious It's The Sun Wot Won It. --Dweller (talk) 12:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I think just about any instance is going to be mostly hearsay and guesswork with varying degrees of validity. Did Andy Donato keep Joe Clark out of office by repeatedly drawing him wearing "idiot mittens"? Lots of people in Canada seem to think so, but how would you ever measure such a thing? Matt Deres (talk) 14:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That's untrue - this particular incident, for example, is pretty solidly attested to. --Dweller (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Somewhere I recall reading a sociological study of the effect that The Right Stuff had on the presidential campaign of John Glenn in 1984 — they did things like measure opinion polls of people who had and hadn't seen the movie, or how they changed after they saw the movie, etc. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * As a serious journalist, he didn't fit any of the categories you provided, but it is worth mentioning that Lyndon B. Johnson supposedly attributed a loss in public support of the Vietnam War to Walter Cronkite. Kansan (talk) 04:41, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * One show rather than one person, but David Steel blames Spitting Image for giving him the image of being powerless and "in the pocket" of David Owen. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * An earlier UK example is TW3, a wildly popular 1960s satirical show on the BBC headed by David Frost, which did a very successful character assasination of Alec Douglas-Home in the run-up to the 1964 General Election. The broadcasting rules were changed shortly afterwards. Alansplodge (talk) 00:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The photo of Robert Stanfield dropping a football supposedly cost him an election. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

ME OR MS
i am B.E.mechanical engg. 3rd year student now shall i go for MS or ME .plz help me out to  get the brief difference between the two  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sesanspanda (talk • contribs) 07:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps other people recognise those initials, but I don't. To me they stand for Multiple sclerosis and Myalgic encephalomyelitis - which would be a nasty choice. We might also find it useful to know what career you wish to have and where in the world you live. --Dweller (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I recognized them as Master of Science and Master of Engineering ... ---Sluzzelin talk  12:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah... in the UK, they'd be abbreviated to MSc and MEng. In any case, we still can't answer the question without the user explaining about what kind of career they want. And even then, it may be difficult. --Dweller (talk) 12:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Different countries (and even different universities in the same country) have different names for their degrees. Where are you studying? Regardless, you are probably better off asking your tutor or departmental advisor or whatever you have. It's their job to provide you with this kind of advice and they'll know the options better than we do. --Tango (talk) 15:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Why remove ICACU lpage
There used to be a page about the UK Central Authority or ICACU (International Child Abduction and Contact Unit). When did you remove it, by whom and why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.84.16 (talk) 09:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It looks like it's become a short section of the article called Official Solicitor. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Snakes onions
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following. A few days ago while walking my dog in the woods I across some plants that had an overpowering and quite nauseous smell. I seem to remember coming across them before when I was a child and being told by my parents that they were called "snakes onions". Can anyone tell me anything about them( what do they have to do with snakes and why do they smell so strong etc?) as I don't seem to be able to find reference to them anywhere. thanks MO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.33.230.34 (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Possibly Allium sativum ophioscorodon aka the "Serpent Garlic". It's mentioned in our list of plants with edible leaves. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Though my first thought was the wild-growing (and ubiquitous) Allium ursinum (Ramsons, or "Bear's Garlic" where I live). They're currently smelling up my neighbourhood (but they're delicious with pasta). ---Sluzzelin talk  14:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you describe how the plant looked? Shape of leave, size, etc. would be helpful. The Allium species above are not usually described as having a nauseating odor. As others point out, they are quite tasty. In contrast Eastern_Skunk_Cabbage does smell genuinely bad. They use the odor of decay to attract insects which are interesting in dung / corpses. I see now that your IP is in the UK, so I should note I do not know if Symplocarpus species are found there. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Military training
Do the military use weights as part of their strength training? Clover345 (talk) 14:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In which country? let me guess... --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't you be a little shocked if there were a military in the world that never used weights as part of strength training? --- Medical geneticist (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * To the right is a photo taken inside a US aircraft carrier's gym. The medicine ball itself is a sort of weight, and other weights are visible in the background.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really an expert but I have seen footage of British and US troops using heavy logs for team exercises. Gymnasium-type weights are used on warships where other types of exercise are more difficult. Alansplodge (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Every military service. Why the weird assumptions User:Tagishsimon? Shadowjams (talk) 07:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Tunnel or bridge linking New Zealand islands
Has there ever been serious consideration of a bridge or tunnel linking the North and South Islands of New Zealand? I'd guess the limited population would make it economically unviable, but would there be any specific engineering challenges (I'm thinking earthquakes might be a concern). --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 14:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Earthquakes are plainly an issue, but they're an issue for tunnels like the Transbay Tube and the Seikan Tunnel. The undersea portion of the latter is about 14 miles, the same as the minimum crossing of the Cook Strait (and much less than the Channel Tunnel). So the issue is the cost, as you say: there's just not enough traffic using the existing ferries to justify the scary prices such long tunnels come in at. But tunnel boring machines get better each year, so maybe it'll be affordable sooner or later. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 16:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The Strait could also be bridged: the problem is shorter than the Hangzhou Bay Bridge or the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway. Again cost is the big problem. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 16:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Greater over-water distances have certainly been traversed; the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel crosses a major shipping channel and at 23 miles long is much longer than would be required to connect the North and South islands of New Zealand. As far as Earthquake proofing, there are numerous bridges in other known earthquake zones (San Francisco Bay for example).  The San Mateo – Hayward Bridge is 7 miles long; I don't see why the 14 miles of the Cook Strait would present additional challenges in the Earthquake department that lessons learned in constructing bridges in the Bay Area wouldn't be useful for.  I think the main reason that it hasn't been done is lack of demand; a project like this would need to justify its own existance by being useful.  According to  the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel serves an average of 9700 vehicles per day; while the San Mateo - Hayward Bridge serves almost 10x that number.  I can't see that many people needing to get from Wellington to Picton and environs; certainly the existing ferries can handle the capacity... -- Jayron  32  17:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The long bridges mentioned all cross relatively shallow bodies of water. For example, the bay beneath the Hangzhou Bay Bridge has a maximum depth of only 14 meters, and the bodies of water crossed by the other long bridges mentioned are all similarly shallow. By contrast, Cook Strait has a maximum depth of 140 meters, and building bridge supports of such a height that could also withstand the forces of strong tidal currents, earthquakes, and tsunamis would be a monumental engineering challenge.  The resulting structure would be extremely expensive.  The only existing structure that crosses a body of water comparable to Cook Strait in width and depth is the Seikan Tunnel, which cost nearly US $4 billion to build in the 1970s and 1980s.  Adjusted for inflation, that would be close to $10 billion today.  It's hard to imagine the traffic between the two New Zealand islands justifying that expense in the foreseeable future.  Marco polo (talk) 18:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it 140 meters consistantly accross the entire strait, or is there a shallower path one could take? If one could, perhaps, avoid the trenches and still construct, say over a slightly wider part of the strait, it could be done... -- Jayron  32  03:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * A nautical chart, with depths in metres, is here. For short crossings, I can't see a sensible route that doesn't cross the 200m contour, so in practice it's worse than 140m. It's shallower and flatter further north (but 140m is still about as shallow as I can see any crossing being), at the expense of much greater length.  If someone really wanted a bridge then I guess Troll A stands in deeper water than that, but having a bunch of such towers would be insanely expensive. As to immersed tube designs, Marmaray (the world's deepest) is 60m down; a sensible Cook Strait tube would be more than twice as deep and more than a dozen times longer.  So I think a deep bored tunnel is the only practical option. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 10:35, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Possibly you could have a deep bored tunnel across the deeper and more exposed eastern two thirds of the crossing. Conceivably it could emerge into an immersed tube across the protected, shallower banks off of South Island, though connecting a bored tunnel and an immerse tube would be a novel engineering feat.  I could imagine that such a hybrid would save money, but the cost would still be in the multiple billions.  Marco polo (talk) 16:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks all - fascinating answers. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 08:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Avoding the tax man
I sometimes use UK on-line retailers to send gifts to relatives in that part of the world. I do it for two reasons, first because the delivery from a UK address to a UK address is quicker than from here but also because it means that I can avoid the GST charged if I purchased it here and because I don't live in the UK I don't pay the VAT either. Really it's because I forgot their birthday until the last minute. Again. This also works within Canada, if, for example, I order from BC I don't have pay the PST. The first part of the question is, does this work for people living in other countries ordering from Canada? Are they able to avoid paying the GST and the PST? Even if the goods are shipped somewhere in Canada? The second part is what stops the system from being abused? If, again for example, someone in the UK was to transfer me the money would I then be able to turn around and buy them a new car and thus avoid the VAT? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * What does the no-VAT checkout look like? Does Amazon show it as a savings line in their calculation?  And how does it show the difference for zero-rated items like books vs full rate items like electronics? -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 20:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * First of all, just because Amazon does not collect a tax does not mean that the purchaser is legally exempt from that tax. (See this site, for example.)  Second, for large purchases such as cars at least, governments are very sensitive to tax avoidance and are likely to take action when they find it.  For example, where I live at least, it is impossible to register a car without proving that you have paid sales tax on your purchase of it.  If you say that the car was a gift, particularly a gift from someone in a foreign country who could not have driven it to the location of registry, your registration is likely to be red-flagged and targeted for investigation.  If found out, the person who transferred money to you to purchase a car on their behalf could end up facing penalties.  Marco polo (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think this would be pretty much straight fraud. Like a lot of fraud-related things, it's down to the fact it's obvious when investigated, rather than obvious at the time. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. I had assumed that it was fraud of some type and have no intention of trying any of this out. A car was a bad choice, I forgot about the small details like registering it, so what about something smaller such as TV or computer. It would seem to me that as long as you were not doing this on a regular basis then the government is not very likely to notice. I don't know how the Amazon UK checkout looks as I haven't ordered through them. The company I did use last time, PhotoBox, just shows 0.00% for VAT rate and actual VAT. I do now know that Amazon has a unified log-in for all their sites except for Japan. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering if by any chance you are confusing goods rated at 0% VAT, with an exeption from VAT for you as a non-UK purchaser. My limited & rusty knowledge of the VAT system says that goods for export can be sold at 0% VAT (the VAT Retail Export Scheme); but you're describing a scenario of a delivery to part of the UK. Such a purchase would be liaible for VAT, unless the goods themselvees are zero rated - non luxury items like food and books. So I'm not seeing any tax avoidance option here. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I did some digging and found that Amazon will not charge VAT on goods they are shipping out of the UK and this (not really reliable) agrees. HM Revenue & Customs says I may be able to get the VAT refunded as I leave and a lot of info on getting stuff shipped in. The closest thing I could find, 8. Liability of some common items, indicates that posters, photos and photo albums, all things I have ordered, are charged VAT. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Fake RPG
This question was originally posted on this user's talk page and I thought it more appropriate for refdesk, so moved it here.  Chzz  ► 20:35, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

On wikipedia I once stumbled across an odd article discussing a fake RPG that can be found on the internet. The game advertises being completely interactive when in reality the only interactive element is creating the character. After generating the character the game proceeds to load up a series of windows with loading bars indicating that your character has "succeeded at killing the knolls" or "killed a rat". Nothing is ever rendered and the amusing bit is that the game continues to go on with the quests without any further participation of the "player". The game is also a browser based game that one can download to their desktop if they are so inclined.

I recall the game had the word "action" in it's title, but beyond that am at a loss as to what the game is called nor can I find it in the listing of games on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Travza (talk • contribs) 20:17, 14 April 2011
 * I'm pretty sure that you're describing Progress Quest. Some things don't quite match, but it is largely as you described: a brilliant parody of role-playing games (I speak as someone who enjoys them). Paul (Stansifer) 20:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's Progress Quest, which has actually been influential. Wizards of the Coast created a Facebook game called "Dungeons & Dragons Tiny Adventures" in which you create the character, choose equipment, click "go", and the character goes and adventures for many hours by himself.  (Here's the Wikia page.)  Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As a sort of browser meta-game/parody, Progress Quest was in turn influenced by also influenced "Upgrade Complete", which is also slightly more of a 'real' game. See game here . SemanticMantis (talk) 01:00, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm skeptical about that; Progress Quest was released in 2002, according to the article, but I doubt that Upgrade Complete is much older than the Jay Is Games review, published in 2009. Paul (Stansifer) 04:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I was confusing progress quest with a (much newer), similar game. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:32, 15 April 2011 (UTC)