Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 April 4

= April 4 =

Secret recipe formulae
In respect to the secret recipes for such popular brands as KFC or Coca Cola, how is the recipe protected if it has to be made so that they can sell it? Is it mixed by computer? What happens if the machine breaks -- I'm certain they don't call Colonel Sanders' great-grandson down to the plant to fix the machine. I'm just using these two companies as examples, but how does any company like this make sure that their secret recipe is not secret enough to prevent it from being implemented but still secret enough that, well, you and I can't find it out?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 05:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not privy to any special information, but I think these recipes are protected in the same way as any other trade secret—i.e., many employees may have access to the information but they are under contract not to reveal it. Coke and KFC are special cases because the "secret recipe" mythos is a significant part of their brand image, so they put on a dog and pony show that's really for the sake of publicity, not secrecy. There's some information about Coke and KFC, with a few references, at snopes.com (which is generally a reliable web site). One thing they mention is that KFC's seasoning mix is made at two different factories, each with only half of the ingredients, then combined later. -- BenRG (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * After dog-and-pony show I was waiting for some mention of Bush's baked beans (whose ad campaign has the family dog trying to sell the secret recipe in various schemes). Rmhermen (talk) 14:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A year or two ago I read an old mass-market paperback which included several "secret" recipes and other supposedly secret stuff. At the moment I've forgotten the title.


 * In any case for Coke etc I believe some syrup or essence is sent off to local factories, where it has the water and CO2 added, and probably sugar and other non-secret stuff. The secret thing is really just marketing hype. It would be easy to concoct a recipe which in blind tastings people either could not distinguish from coke, or which they prefered to coke. In facts there are many "cokes" available, so people have been doing that for a long time. The "secret recipe" is not what makes them their profit, its all the other business things such as marketing and especially "goodwill". 92.29.115.116 (talk) 11:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Was the book in question Big Secrets? I read it when I was a child and loved it. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)The paperback in question may have been one of the Big Secrets series by William Poundstone. One method used by companies with "secret" recipes and the like is to prepare some ingredients/components in Location 'A', some in location 'B', and then send them to location 'C' for combination and final processing: that way the employees at each of 'A' and 'B' only know only how to make their own ingredients, and those at 'C' only know how to combine the two but not how they were made. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.144 (talk) 12:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I think the book was Big Secrets by Poundstone. 92.29.115.116 (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Both companies operate on the franchise model, which makes secrecy a lot easier to protect. KFC and Coke do not own the actual places where their final product is made and distributed.  Individual KFC restaurants are independently owned and operated businesses with no connection to the parent company, so its not all that hard to believe that, despite being one of the largest restaurant chains in the world, there aren't that many people with even access to the recipe.  Coke is very similar; Coca-Cola is bottled by locally owned and operated bottling plants; the Coke corporation does not own these as part of their main business, they sell the syrup to the local plants who bottle it and distribute it (I say as part of their main business; some bottling plants are owned and operated by "Coca-Cola Enterprises" which is a seperately run company from The Coca-Cola Company who makes the syrup).  So again, the people who have cause to know the recipe of the syrup are actually limited.  -- Jayron  32  11:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * IIRC with KFC there are actually (allegedly anyway) two different mixes produce at different locations which are then combined somewhere. (Similar to what 90.197 suggested.) In theory of course no one has to know the actual complete recipe/formula any more (they obviously weren't like this at the beginning) but I think some do. I believe Sony or perhaps Microsoft (or both even) allegedly do something similar with the private key for their consoles where a few people in management know part of the key and they are called up to enter it separately when needed and no one actually knows the entire key. P.S. The KFC part is discussed here . P.P.S. Our KFC discusses how alleged only copies of the physical recipe are protected. It also discusses people who say they have reproduced it Nil Einne (talk) 20:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll mention parenthetically that we have an article at Coca-Cola formula, which discusses various purported recipes and ingredient lists from an assortment of sources. For someone who wishes to prepare an open-source cola beverage, we also have the GPL-licensed OpenCola.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Irn-Bru has a secret recipe and our article has some information about it. --TrogWoolley (talk) 14:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Coca-Cola has the added advantage of a secret formula that includes extract from coca leaves, which you'll need special permits to handle. So even if you had the formula you'd have a hard time bringing an exact duplicate soft drink to market. APL (talk) 15:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There's an oft repeated story that the move to New Coke was an attempt to get away from that, but that obviously didn't work in the U.S. at least. But Coke varieties vary outside of the U.S. I was exceptionally hard pressed to ever find Coke "classic" in Europe. Is anyone aware of any European countries that have Coke Classic? Shadowjams (talk) 22:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm presuming you mean the thing sold in the US as Coke Classic (bearing in mind I don't think we have any real idea how close it is to the original taste). If so I think Coke Classic usually uses HFCS whereas it's more common to use sugar in much of Europe so the simple answer is not many, if any. Whether that's the sole reason for any taste difference you detected, I don't know. Nil Einne (talk) 06:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Classic" has nothing to do with sweetener. (There's a legend that New Coke was to cover the sweetener switch, but that's false, by that time they'd already made the switch.) Coke Classic can be made with a few different approved sweeteners at the discretion of the local bottling plant. HFCS and cane sugar included.
 * "Classic" simply indicates a return to the original formula from "New Coke"'s Coke II formula. I believe that in some regions where the Coke II formula wasn't introduced, they never switched the branding to "Classic". But
 * Even here in USA they seem to be phasing out the "Coke Classic" branding back to their original "Coca-Cola" branding. The bottle I'm drinking right now doesn't have the word "Classic" anywhere on it, only a logo indicating "Original Formula". APL (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * My point is it's not clear what ShadowJams means by "Coke Classic". My presumption is ShadowJams finds the Coke in Europe tastes different hence why they say "Coke Classic" is not available in Europe. As you say, all this new Coke/Coke classic jazz appears to have been restricted to North America so there has probably never been any Coke branded "Coke Classic" in Europe (there was never any in Malaysia anyway IIRC), again my presumption ShadowJams knows this since it's silly to look out for or ask about something that has never existed. The formula may or may not have changed over time, who knows? The reason why ShadowJams finds Coke in Europe tastes different is unclear, it may be the sweetener (some people claim it can be tested, while I'm sceptical of such claims people often 'taste' things when they know there is a difference they can't taste in a blind test) I can definitely see it making a difference so it can't be excluded. It may also be something else. As I also said, which one tastes closer to coke 30 years ago, we can't say (although in terms of sweetener in much of Europe and elsewhere it is closer). However since most or all "Coke Classic" is the stuff made in the US usually with HFCS, the stuff in Europe if it does taste different clearly doesn't taste like "Coke Classic" since "Coke Classic" was always a North? American brand and the stuff elsewhere has always just been called Coke or Coca-Cola. Nil Einne (talk) 15:47, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * ShadowJams, It's all "Coke Classic". Coke II (AKA New Coke) was finally discontinued in 2002, but it was never sold in Europe anyway.
 * Outside of North America they just don't call it "classic".APL (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's different, and that difference definitely goes beyond how one plant mixes it. Shadowjams (talk) 09:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it's officially the same thing then. "Coke Classic" is just the brand name for original formula Coke-Cola, which is what is being sold as Coke's flagship product in both USA and Europe.
 * But like Nil Einne says, Coke Classic can be properly made with more than one sweatener. Perhaps you're detecting the difference between the HFCS used in most American bottling plants, and the white sugar used in most European bottling plants?
 * My local grocery store has started carrying "Mexican Coke" in their 'international foods' section. It's standard Coca-Cola bottled in Mexico with cane sugar and an American nutritional info sticker slapped over the Mexican label. You might try that to see if it tastes like the European coke you remember. In the interests of science.  APL (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I met a person who ran a chemical plant in New Jersey where at least one of the Coke ingredients was made (he said it was the full recipe, though) - they have an NDA, but he said any chemist with access to modern equipment could duplicate the syrup. People in tests given one sample marked "Coke" and another marked with any other label, will insist the two have some difference in taste. If a person in the US wants genuine "Coke Classic", he should look for kosher Coke - the corn syrup is not kosher! Collect (talk) 10:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Claims that one can analyse a complexly prepared drink (or foodstuff) and duplicate it exactly should be taken with a pinch of salt (pun intended). In addition to the raw ingredients, taste is significantly influenced by the exact preparation methods and apparatus used, which determine how the complex chemicals involved (everything is chemicals, of course) interact and form new substances in various minutely varying proportions. Our senses of taste, smell and touch (mouthfeel is an often-underated factor) are quite sufficiently sensitive to detect the resulting changes: for example, it is routinely acknowledged in the UK brewing industry/drinking community that the exact same recipe performed in two different breweries with similar but not identical brewing equipment will result in two beers that can easily be distinguished. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.111 (talk) 13:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Coke does not rely on strains of yeast - which are a huge factot in differentiating beers. Collect (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Neither does coffee, but instant coffee manufacturers will move or exactly copy vessels and other equipment if they want to duplicate the instant coffee produced at a given plant: it is very hard to replicate the particular flavour and texture any other way. This is common in food manufacturing. 86.164.73.72 (talk) 19:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Fuse for wipers, 1997 Celica
The front windscreen wipers on my UK 1997 Toyota Celica have stopped working. All else seems fine. I'd like to check the fuse but am unable to locate it. The manual gives three locations for fuse boxes but is rather vague about which fuses control which circuits. I've removed the cover of the fuse box in the engine compartment which has a schematic indicating what the fuses are for (e.g. "Dome", "CDS", "RDI") but I can't relate any of these to wipers. Is there some code which is commonly used for this circuit? Am I looking in the wrong place? --Frumpo (talk) 08:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If you don't get an answer here, you could try posting at one of the online forums for Celica users (just searching them may give the answer you require). Alternatively, a workshop manual such as the Haynes series will have full wiring diagrams. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much, I'll try asking there and, if I have some success, I'll report back here. --Frumpo (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A Test light (see article) of the 12V kind (not the mains kind with a neon lamp) is your friend. Turn on the wipers and if you find a fuse that has 12V on one side and 0V on the other, that's the faulty one. However there can be other causes than a burnt fuse for wipers to stop working. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I don't have one now but will see if I can get one tomorrow.  --Frumpo (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I got some useful info on one of the forums. It seems like the fuse is fine.  If it wasn't, then the rear wiper and washers would also have failed. --Frumpo (talk) 10:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

What are the responsibilities associated to a member of Board of Studies at a university
Dear Friend,

Please let me know the various responsibilities associated with a member of board of studies at an india university.

Thanks you in advance.

Looking forward for quick response on this please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neerajgarg5 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

What is this flag?


Can anyone help me to identify this flag. I admit it is not good quality but I had limited time to record it. I have searched several sites and it is not (as far as I can discover) a national flag. As can be seen it has a yellow horizontal upper third, a middle red third. and a lower yellow third. The white markings that are hidden by folds (it was a gusty day!) are a white double-headed ?eagle. Just below the centre is a small shield with a yellow background and a diagonal, top left to bottom right, stripe of red. Richard Avery (talk) 15:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see it listed at Gallery_of_triband_flags which is how I would dresribe the style. The colors remind me of flags and coats of arms of Baden, so you could check that out... -- Jayron  32  15:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like the flag of Baden with the coat of arms of Baden on it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks a bit like being sold as "flag of Baden".   Collect (talk) 16:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also and . Nanonic (talk) 16:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Blimey, that was quick. Right on the button guys and ?gals. The version by Collect looks very close, but everyone has added to it. My memory put the two eagles together, but there you go. Thanks everyone. Richard Avery (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Officially they are Griffins. Collect (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Where in the world
can you please tell me where this is so i cab go. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * According to the copyright information, you own the copyright. Where were you when you took the picture? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's now been challenged for Copyvio, with a link to at least ten copies via Tineye. --ColinFine (talk) 21:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a source for the picture: It doesn't name it, but other google images of Bora Bora make it pretty clear that's where it is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Bora Bora, maybe? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Not to be confused with Tora Bora. Alansplodge (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry; yes it looks very much like this place. Alansplodge (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like tsunami bait. StuRat (talk) 06:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and shark bait. If you google [bora bora] you'll find a lot of pics of these nifty little huts, interspersed with pics of them guys. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:31, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If that's the Four Seasons hotel at Bora Bora (and I think it is), then, according to the web site, a stay in one of those pretty bungalows will run you around $1000 US per night. Have a lovely trip! -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:23, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A room at the Waldorf will cost you almost half that (at the economy rate, yet) and the only sharks you're liable to run into are the two-legged variety. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

What in the world


can some one please tell me what this peice of machinery is. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a clue on the plastic crate at the bottom that bears the legend "Royal Mail". Alansplodge (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought so too, but the thing was COVERED in oil and grease, there is no way they would use this for letters of any sort, i thi nk thats just a random crate, a clue is that on the side of it it says Heidelberg offset. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Aha! Then it will be one of these, or very similar; "a one-color Heidelberg offset lithography press". Alansplodge (talk) 00:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There's one for sale here. Alansplodge (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)