Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 August 23

= August 23 =

I need some assistance in editing some road pages in NJ.
Wikiproject NJ roads is not that active, so that is why I came here. Would anyone on here be willing to help out with these pages, pertaining to county routes in Monmouth Cnty, NJ: List of county routes in Monmouth County, New Jersey (1-15), List of county routes in Monmouth County, New Jersey (16-30), and to start this page List of county routes in Monmouth County, New Jersey (31-57). If anyone can help, that would be great. I do not know how to add the intersection tables to the blank sections. Also, this page County Route 55 (Monmouth County, New Jersey), is the only single county page to have its own article for Monmouth Cnty, why, I have no clue. All the other county routes are just redirects to the pages listed above. I had asked another user for advice, but they had other obligations to make. Many thanks to all. – Tinton5 (talk) 00:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I would suggest posting this request on project pages more closely related to your project than the Reference Desk. It doesn't hurt to post on the Reference Desk, but there is a relatively small chance that Reference Desk editors are going to be interested enough in county highways in New Jersey to want to get involved.  You might get a better response if you post your request at WikiProject U.S. Roads or WikiProject New Jersey, since editors who visit those sites are more likely to be interested in your topic.  Marco polo (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Macaulay Honors College
I have done a lot of research on the subject because I have to get ready to apply for school and I was wondering if you apply to the honors program and do not get in, can you get into the CUNY college of your choice or can you apply separately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScarlettRaye (talk • contribs) 02:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you contacted the admissions department at CUNY directly? Presumably they, more than random strangers at Wikipedia, would be best informed to answer your question.  -- Jayron  32  03:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Haha yes I was just coming to write a disclaimer. I emailed them and got my answer and for anyone who wants to know i copied a portion of my email and posted it here: The application this year will now offer six choices for Macaulay. You will be able to place six choices on the application which will also be considered for regular admissions as well as Macaulay. You will need to rank your schools in order of preference. The Macaulay application will be available September 1. At this time, the essay questions are posted on our website, so you can get a head start on the application. If applying to Macaulay, you do not fill out the general CUNY freshman application. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScarlettRaye (talk • contribs) 17:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Paint roller vs. compressed air sprayer
Why do professional painters (of walls) prefer the former? 88.9.108.128 (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No overspray, no need for a mask and the possibility for textured effects. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "overspray"? Is a compressed air sprayer less efficient when it comes to painting walls? 88.9.108.128 (talk) 12:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * 'Overspray' is the paint that ends up beyond the boundary of what you intend to paint. Working indoors with a paint sprayer means covering everything with tape and plastic.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * This page seems to be quite a good discussion of the pros and cons of air sprayers. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Are we talking about painting interiors or exteriors, and what size of buildings? I mean if you are talking about painting the inside of a house, then a roller would be logical as the square footage of walls is manageable, whereas if they were planning to paint the interior walls of an aircraft hanger or the exterior walls of a warehouse, then obviously rollers would take a lot longer.  Googlemeister (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * When I lived in Australia, workmen would paint metal railing fences (like this http://www.cyclestreets.net/location/16661/cyclestreets16661-size180.jpg) with either a roller or a spray gun; if they used a spray gun, somebody would hold a sheet of cardboard against the opposite site. Here in Britain, I've only ever seen workmen painting said fences with a brush. I wonder why the difference?  I think a spray gun would be quicker. --TrogWoolley (talk) 18:30, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A video answers the question. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The only person who has ever painted wearing a coat and tie, I'm sure. :-)


 * As far as painting fences with a brush vs. a sprayer, the brush saves more paint but the sprayer is probably a lot faster. So you're either saving on paint or labor.  Dismas |(talk) 00:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The time savings may not be there if you include the time spent masking everything else in the room. Personally, I'd only want to use a paint sprayer out in the middle of nowhere, using non-toxic paint and while wearing a mask and goggles and clothes I don't mind ruining. StuRat (talk) 02:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It's common to have fences indoors in the US? Nil Einne (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Mostly just this kind. Baby gate  Googlemeister (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I missed the word "fences", but I still wouldn't want to paint my fence with a spray gun, as it's near the house, garage, cars, sheds, etc., none of which I want to have over-sprayed. StuRat (talk) 03:56, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that depend on how big the piece of cardboard involved is and how closely it is held to the fence and how careful the person doing the spraying is? Nil Einne (talk) 05:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Avoiding days with wind is also important. You can limit the amount of over-spray by being extremely careful, but you can't completely eliminate it.  StuRat (talk) 06:01, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Do not eat Baked beans before spraying. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

A blonde young lady went knocking on doors offering to do small jobs. A houseowner said he would pay her $20 to paint his porch, knowing that price was very low for the work involved. She accepted the offer. "You can find the paint in my garage" he said. An hour later she knocked on the door again. "I've done the painting." she announced. "That was quick. Did you paint it properly?" he asked. She replied "Yes, I painted two coats and there is some paint left over." The houseowner paid her, glad at such a bargain. She thanked him and parted saying "By the way, it isn't a Porsche it's a Ferrari." Cuddlyable3 (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Documenting a Travel Route to Post Online
If you google something like 'interactive travel map' or 'backpacking route map' lots of results appear that are useless to me.

I want to be able to make a map that takes people step-by-step through places I've visited on a recent trip to Central America in a video that I could post links and photos in as it goes (and put on youtube), but something which is simple. Sites like routebuilder.org or google earth don't do this, the former just shows a line through the places you've been, and GE just makes you go dizzy by zooming out. flicking across the globe then zooming in again.

I'm thinking of a travel program like Billy Connolly's world tour where it cuts to a simple map showing where he's moving to on the map and traces a little arrow across it.

Any recommendations?

Lucas 83 16:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukerees83 (talk • contribs)


 * You need graphic animation software or someone who has it. Most commercial cartographers could make the kind of animated map that you want.  It would cost more than US$100 but probably less than $1000.  Marco polo (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have sometimes used Wikispaces to create a travel blog. I create one page per day containing an embedded interactive Google Map of that day's travel, a narrative and perhaps a few photos.  Unfortunately, from your description it looks like you are more interested in almost footstep by footstep mapping. Google Maps is probably unsuitable for that.  Astronaut (talk) 10:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you considered animating it stop-motion. All you'd have to do is maintain a constant camera height and reasonably similar lighting conditions, this would probably taken some care (maybe a wire frame to help with it) but I think would be possible. You could then mark your route each day in felt-tip on your map, maybe putting next to it any mementoes (if you have a polariod camera, say, or scrapbook-like tickets/postcards/etc.) If you could manage do it a couple or few times a day, I think it could work really well - it could give the rustic feel that probably matches your trip. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

regarding tesco
Can I arrange to have a particular item on sale in their larger stores delivered to a smaller one nearer to me so I can pick it up? And if so, how would I do so?

85.210.116.213 (talk) 17:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It depends on what you are wanting to order but this (http://direct.tesco.com/help/deliveryitems.aspx) suggests things through Tesco Direct can be bought and ordered to be delivered to your local store. Otherwise if it's just general groceries you can order it to be delivered to your door from online (if you've not used the service before there's usually a free delivery for your first order). Alternatively I would advise going in store and asking one of the customer services guys, you'd be surprised how helpful they can be - i've had other similarly large stores order in odd items from other stores into their local one. ny156uk (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I have found how to arrange for it to be delivered to my local store, but they require me to give details to pay by card rather than as I had wished to pay by cash in store. Is there any way around this? 85.210.116.213 (talk) 19:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I guess it's too late now, order placed, perhaps it might be worth knowing for next time. And of course, they didn't bother telling me until it was too late that I had to allow a few days for them to get it there, though I suppose I couldn't have expected them to have it there within the day, even if it was coming from somewhere close by. Oh well, all over now, I'll just have to accept it as it is. 85.210.116.213 (talk) 20:03, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Capitalization of first letter of each title word
The article on Computer engineering has the letter 'e' in small case. Is there any particular reason for that? Everywhere I see, in college websites, job applications..etc, both 'Computer' and 'Engineering' normally have their first letters capitalized. Even links within wikipedia pointing towards branches of engineering are often modified to display a capitalized 'e'. Since both the act of engineering using computers as well as the college major are both called Computer Engineering, should they have separate pages? Because it's only a single alphabet in the title that needs to be capitalized.

Didn't think I should go ahead and edit it myself, because I thought there must be reason for it being that way, so I decided to ask it here... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.109.176 (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is really an issue of style. In general, initial capital letters are gradually falling out of favour in many areas.  In my view there is no need for the 'e' in engineering to be capitalized in the Wikipedia article, since the subject of the article is just a subject, a discipline, not a proper noun.  On a college website or job application, computer engineering might be considered a proper noun, since it's the title of a course.  But to be honest with you, if I was writing the college website, I'd be tempted to drop that capital E myself from the title of the course as well. --Viennese Waltz 19:03, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * See WP:CAPS for the guide to capitalization in article titles. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but note that that guideline says "do not capitalize second and subsequent words, unless the title is a proper noun." The point I am making above is that in certain contexts computer engineering might indeed be considered a proper noun.  In my view, however, proper nouns should not necessarily receive initial caps. --Viennese Waltz 19:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Computer engineering is a proper noun only when it is a title, such as the title of a course or book. Otherwise, it is simply a common noun referring to a technology, like electricity, or an area of study, like history, which should not be capitalized. Our article refers to the area of study or the technology rather than to any specific university course or publication, so this is a case of the common noun, which should not be capitalized. Marco polo (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, then let's talk about the capitalization of proper nouns in general. The OP is confused because he/she has seen Computer Engineering capitalized in college websites and job applications.  A book title would be another example, as you say.  But if I was referring to the subject in a college prospectus, or giving my book on the subject a title, I would also write 'Computer engineering' without a capital E. --Viennese Waltz 19:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ...proper nouns should not necessarily receive initial caps - Isn't an initial capital one of the fundamental and defining features of a proper noun, Viennese Waltz? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll just check that on my iPhone... (Of courseit depends on the language - German uses capitals for all nouns, French doesn't use them for names of days and months.) AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In English however, they pretty much always are. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:27, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (reply to Jack) Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a proper noun. Our article calls it "a noun representing a unique entity (such as London, Jupiter, John Hunter, or Toyota)".  Fair enough, I'd give capitals to all of those.  But Wiktionary defines it as "a noun denoting a particular person, place, organization, ship, animal, event, or other individual entity", which is rather different.  A few random examples: I would write "Julia Gillard, the prime minister of Australia"; "the United Nations security council", "the board of trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation", etc. In general I think initial caps should be avoided wherever possible. --Viennese Waltz 21:30, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I would always write "Julia Gillard, the Prime Minister of Australia", "the United Nations Security Council", "the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation" etc. These are specific titles for particular offices.  If we're talking about prime ministers in general, or security councils in general, or boards of trustees in general, well, what I just did is what you do. In that latter case, they're not proper nouns and so do not have caps; but in the particular examples you quoted first up, they are proper nouns and do require caps.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * But the prime minister of Australia is just one example of a prime minister. Why give it caps?  What's so special about that particular office?
 * There are two main factors at work here. One is that initial caps in offices such as these carry a whiff of deference which I think we can safely discard.  The other is typographical.  Studies show that readers find too many initial caps tiring.  Getting rid of them improves the readability of a sentence by helping the eye to flow more easily across the line.  (One could add a third factor, the explosion in email correspondence which has led to many people doing away with caps altogether.)  --Viennese Waltz 21:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily "special", but how about we write "Barack Obama is the president of the united states"? Does that seem appropriate to you?  He’s not the only president in the world, and the USA is not the only example of a collection of united states, so ....  No, we have to regard "President of the United States" as an indivisible term (except to the extent that it's sometimes abbreviated to "President").  It has nothing to do with whiffs of deference.  I think you’re arguing for why the status quo, capitalisation-wise, ought to be changed, and you bring in email style as support.  Well, what’s generally written in emails and text messages has its own internal “rules”, which lie outside the mainstream of spelling, punctuation, grammar, even some times of meaning and language itself. Let it not distract us from the utterance of good and noble things in speech and prose. And let this place not become a forum for the advocacy of change.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * [unindent] Jack, the correct way to set your sentence above, according to most style rules, is "Barack Obama is the president of the United States." President is capitalized not when it is a description, but only when it is part of a title attached to a name ("President Barack Obama") or when it is used referring to a specific individual in lieu of a name ('"Ladies and gentlemen, the  President of the United States!"; "Mr. President"; "The P resident emerged from Air Force One.").  The sentence "Barack Obama is president of the United States." is no different in terms of style than a sentence like "Barack Obama and George W. Bush have been presidents of the United States."  You can see here that in both sentences, president is a common noun, not a proper noun, and shouldn't be capitalized.  Marco polo (talk) 13:23, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Barack Obama is the president of the United States" is not what I'm seeing @ Barack Obama. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  13:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * That's because "President of the United States" is a title, and a proper noun. Just like you would say "Alan Mulally is the President of the Ford Motor Company." - it's a title. Now, it would be lowercase if you weren't referring to the title specifically - "Barack Obama is the current American president." - American president isn't a title, it's a description. Avic ennasis @ 14:34, 24 Av 5771 / 14:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No, our article capitalizes president incorrectly, at least according to the Chicago Manual of Style (15th edition): "8.21  Civil, military, religious, and professional titles are capitalized when they immediately precede a personal name and are thus used as part of the name (usually replacing the title holder's first name). Titles are normally lowercased when following a name or used in place of a name (but see 8.22). ... 8.22 Exceptions to the general rule.  In formal contexts as opposed to running text, such as a displayed list of donors in the front matter of a book or a list of corporate officers in an annual report, titles are usually capitalized even when following a personal name.  Exceptions may also be called for in promotional or other contexts for reasons of courtesy or politics. A title used alone, in place of a personal name, is capitalized only in such contexts as a toast or formal introduction, or when used in direct address." The manual then lists a number of examples in which president, referring to the president of the United States, is lowercased in running text.  So I stand corrected.  The contexts in which president should be capitalized are even fewer than I indicated above.  In my example above, "The president emerged from Air Force One", president should be lowercased according to the Chicago Manual.  Since our own style guide on the subject agrees with the Chicago Manual, I am going to boldly edit the article on Barack Obama.  Marco polo (talk) 15:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I think that's crap, and I have no doubt you'll be reverted or at least queried at talk, but go ahead and see what happens. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm? -- Jack of Oz   [your turn]  12:27, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As a professional editor with a couple of decades of experience, it is my opinion that the Chicago Manual of Style is not "crap". Unfortunately, I don't have time to ensure that all of Wikipedia conforms to proper style nor to engage in edit wars.  Apparently, lots of people have the mistaken idea that certain job titles are so elevated that they deserve capital letters.  There's no point in my trying to apply the correct style if it is just going to be reverted.  I enjoy Wikipedia, but it is unfortunately subject to the tyranny of the ignorant consensus.  Marco polo (talk) 16:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I see. So, the consensus is ignorant.  Thank God we have you to keep us on the straight and narrow.  :)  But seriously, if you object to the consensus-based approach used here, I'm amazed you've stuck around for so long.  Why has this not caused you intolerable angst on many earlier occasions?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Consensus is sometimes a little questionable. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 07:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Destination blinds on bendy buses


Why is it, that on articulated buses, the destination screen always seems to be blinds instead of an electronical display, in every picture I've ever seen?  Rcsprinter  (talk)  20:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The bendy-buses in my city use electronic displays (http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ftr-bus-york.jpg / http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3963230991_a1413bb583.jpg), so perhaps it's to do with where you live and the choices of the local bus firms? ny156uk (talk) 22:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, the article you linked to shows several bendy buses with electronic displays. All the London ones seem to have blinds; I would guess they don't have a rear destination display.--Shantavira|feed me 07:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I meant just London ones, like in the picture.  Rcsprinter  (talk)  11:38, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Lots of London double-deckers have blinds too; this one has a 2004 registration plate, so not that old in the great scheme of things. BTW, the only thing I like about London bendy buses is their nickname: "Ken's mobile road blocks". They might be fine on the streets of Cologne or Dresden but they just look wrong in London. Also try cycling past one - they're a menace. Alansplodge (talk) 18:01, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A European bus operator told a few years back that they would prefer double deckers too but they have lower bridges on many of their routes – hence the development of the mobile-road-block. Also,the greater number of axils increase the rolling friction which in turn give poorer fuel efficiency. Still, it was probably a political decision based on initial upfront costs and be honest - they give the fire brigade a break from rescuing cats.--Aspro (talk) 19:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh come on! --Ouro (blah blah) 06:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll tell you one thing that is the same on both sides of the Atlantic, if I took a picture of a bus driver at work over here he would almost certainly have the same scowl as the obviously thrilled-to-be-alive individual driving this one. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone can have a bad day. --Ouro (blah blah) 20:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Relative to blinds, electronic displays have the advantage of being readily reprogrammable for changed bus routes but they may give distracting flicker effects in traffic. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 07:12, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Besides changing for bus routes, they can also be used to display other messages, like "Out of Service". As well, I remember a few years ago in Cleveland, A bus passed me with "Emergency - call 911" on the outside LED displays. Turns out, most buses have a hidden switch somewhere that uses the sign to tell the outside world something is wrong, in the case of a gunman or whatnot. (I never actually found out what happened.) Avic ennasis @ 23:27, 27 Av 5771 / 23:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Wikipedia Has an Article About Everything"! From our London Buses article: "London Buses also specifies that vehicles operating in London use linen roller destination blinds, whereas in most other parts of the country, electronic dot matrix or LED displays are the norm on new buses." So there you have it. Alansplodge (talk) 12:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC)