Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 February 28

= February 28 =

USS CHANDLER (DD-206)
My husband was aboard the USS Chandler when the war ended.We know the ship went to Norfolk, Virginia & was sold in 1946. He is wondering who bought the ship and for what purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Virginia74 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Good question; our article USS Chandler (DD-206) doesn't say. But I'd say keep an eye out here for a couple of days to see if someone comes up with any more info!  WikiDao    &#9775;  01:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This site (not necessarily the most authoritative on this matter) just says she "was sold for scrap" in '46.
 * Someone seems to have published a whole book on her, though.  WikiDao    &#9775;  01:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That "book" is a print-on-demand version of the Wikipedia article on the Chandler. You can tell because the publisher is Betascript Publishing.  --Sean 19:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * says sold for scrap as well. Rmhermen (talk) 02:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

People who died on aircraft in mid-flight
I recently wrote an article on someone who died of natural causes on an aircraft in mid-flight. I saw we already had a category on people who died at sea (other than in shipwrecks etc), so I figured we needed Category:People who died on aircraft in mid-flight, and I created it.

When it came to populating it, however, I was surprised at how few names I could find. Apart from my guy, I was aware of a couple of others (Howard Hughes being probably the best known), and I was able to do a search and find a couple more. That makes a grand total of 5 people in this category.

I’m looking for some more names, because I don’t believe only 5 notable people have ever died in these circumstances. Remember, no plane crash victims, but notable people who boarded a plane alive and were carried off dead at the other end. They may already have been ill and were being transported by air ambulance; or they may have simply had a heart attack; or slipped and fell in the aisle; or died of food poisoning from the airline food, you get the idea.

Yours in anticipation. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  03:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a common enough occurance that a lot of planes have special "corpse cupboards" (no article?!) to keep the bodies in until landing. That suggests you are right that there must be more than 5 notable people that have died mid-flight. --Tango (talk) 03:18, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have rectified the oversight. (Don't you just love insomnia? I just created an article on corpse cupboards at 3:30am...) --Tango (talk) 03:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well done for that Tango, but I am rereading your point that "many" planes carry "corpse cupboards". Your article then cites just one, massive, plane. On a more general note dying suddenly from natural causes is an unusual occurence in terms of ways to die other than the consequence of an accident. Couple this with the amount of time in their life that people spend flying and it is not really surprising that the list of notable people is short. Indeed notability might be conferred on anyone who has died in these circumstances. Richard Avery (talk) 07:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My article cites a fleet of planes, and they were just the first. I saw mention of others while googling, but didn't investigate further. I was just looking for the bare minimum needed for a stub that would survive AFD. --Tango (talk) 00:02, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have doubts the at least 3 pilots found via a search for 'died midflight'  are notable. Also I'm not convinced of your idea dying suddenly is rare except as the result of accidents. Cardiovascular diseases are one of the leading causes of deaths in most developed countries ( List of causes of death by rate ) and while not all of these deaths are going to be 'sudden' I would guess it's not that rare particularly in comparison to accidents which when it comes to overall causes of deaths (rather the say causes of deaths of a certain age range) are usually only a small minority (and not all accidents are going to cause a 'sudden' death anyway). Of course a big percentage of these deaths happen to old people who may not fly much but I'm still far from convinced it's as rare as you suggest. Nil Einne (talk) 11:46, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * BTW speaking of cardiovascular disease it seems quite a number of airlines carry automated external defibrillators and according to  it's even mandated by the FAA in the US (but not by the CAA in the UK ). American Airlines may have been the first in the US  and they claim it saved  76 lives. Since ventricular fibrillation despite what TV often seems to suggest isn't actually the cause of all cardiac problems one would presume there were many others the AED's couldn't help.
 * One of the refs does say 'The International Air Transport Association reported only 72 deaths per year (the majority of them sudden) between 1977 and 1984, an estimate that is likely to be low since others have suggested that there may be up to 1000 such deaths per year on commercial flights' and while I'm not sure if this is including things like hijackings and bombs, it seems doubtful all 72 deaths per year (given the increase in airtravel likely higher now) even if we accept the IATA figure, are notable
 * Nil Einne (talk) 11:58, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Paul Kossoff (1976). ---Sluzzelin talk  03:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Solomon Burke doesn't fit your category's name, as he "died at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport while on a plane from Los Angeles that had just landed" (2010), but he did board "a plane alive and was carried off dead at the other end". Where would he be categorized then? ---Sluzzelin talk  03:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The scope of this or any other category is a matter for consensus, but I have no problems with including such a case. I wouldn't even limit it to deaths by natural causes, so I'd add those who died in mid-air by suicide or murder, if there are any such cases.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  04:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Suicide I wouldn't know, but the 9/11 hijackers killed at least one person with boxcutters prior to the more generalized mass murders (which, I guess, were not "mid-air" strictly speaking). --Trovatore (talk) 04:59, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. died in midair when the plane exploded. So he might not fit the "carried off dead" criteria. Stan Rogers on Air Canada Flight 797 might have died in flight but its not clear and it might have been after they landed. Also look at Pan Am Flight 103 (3 passengers with articles) and TWA Flight 800 (5 passengers). They might have died in the explosion which could count as mid-flight. Not quite an aircraft but Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Payne Stewart. Doesn't fit two criteria. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I wouldn't include any cases where the death of the person was directly connected to the fate of the aircraft, so crashes, explosions, fires etc would all be out. The aircraft needs to be incidental to the death, hence I'd exclude Joe Kennedy but Solomon Burke is OK because he died during the duration of the flight even though the plane had landed.  Maybe we need to explicitly define a "flight" as between the moment the doors are locked and the moment they're opened again at the other end.  Even then, a person waiting to disembark after some other passengers had already left could collapse and die on board, and I'd still include their death in the category.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  05:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Are there not good reasons why deaths are often recorded in the place where the plane landed, rather than at some indeterminate location during the flight? The death would need to be confirmed by a doctor who would not usually be on board, and it could create problems if the death was deemed to have occurred within the jurisdiction of some nation which was flown over during the flight, rather than at the place of landing.  I'm sure I read that Burke actually died during the flight over the ocean, but it couldn't be confirmed until it was checked by a doctor after the plane had landed.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:19, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In a recent BBC radio comedy series episode (Series 1, Episode 2) about a small (one-plane) airline - which often bases its humour on potentially real situations - the point was made that it can be a bureaucratic and logistical problem for all concerned if a death actually occurs on board, so there is some unofficial motivation to pretend the victim expired after landing. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If the passenger was wearing their lap-belt, and in a window seat then there may be no need to disturb zer until after landing. The neighbouring passengers could well assume that zhe was merely pinning for the fjords and not realise that zhe joined the choir celestial. CS Miller (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Does Auric Goldfinger count? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:46, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No. He was "sucked out" of the aircraft (not sure that would be terminology a physicist would use) and fell to his death.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I've found a bona fide murder on board a plane: the Indonesian human rights activist Munir Said Thalib died of arsenic poisoning on a commercial flight from Jakarta to Amsterdam, though the arsenic may not have been administered while he was on the plane. Natural deaths on airliners include Pedro Pietri, Albert Bassermann, Saul Lieberman and Joseph Burstyn.  As for Len Koenecke, it's worth quoting from his article at length:
 * After being sent home from the road trip he caught a commercial flight for New York. During the flight he drank a quart of whiskey and became very drunk. After harassing other passengers and striking a stewardess, the pilot had to sit on him to restrain him as he was shackled to his seat. He was removed unconscious from the flight in Detroit. After sleeping on a chair in the airport he chartered a flight to Buffalo. While flying over Canada he had a disagreement with the pilot and a passenger and attempted to take control of the aircraft. In order to avoid a crash he was hit over the head by both the pilot (who had left his controls) and the other passenger with a fire extinguisher. After an emergency landing on a racetrack it was found that Koenecke had died of a cerebral hemorrhage.
 * That adds up to six humans, but I bet you're not going to count poor Laika are you? --Antiquary (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, any animal that has its own article qualifies for a mention in Recent deaths, so I don't see why it shouldn't also appear in relevant categories.  However, we'd have to change the name to "Deaths on aircraft in mid-flight".  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Laika died in space, not in a conventional "aircraft". She's already listed in Category:Deaths in space. Staecker (talk) 23:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, particular Sluzzelin and Antiquary for the 8 new names I've now added to the cat. If you find any more, you know what to do. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  09:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I added Richard Carlson (author). --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if this will count or not Alfred Lowenstein Hotclaws (talk) 11:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The autopsy revealed a partial fracture of his skull and several broken bones, and it was concluded that he had been alive when he struck the water - so it seems his death occurred at ground level, thousands of feet vertically and a few miles horizontally away from the plane. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  11:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Adelir Antonio de Carli might have died in midair on his homebuilt balloon apparatus. Not sure that he died in midair though since I did not see if the cause of death was anoxia from him going to high (he lost contact at nearly 20,000 feet) or if his craft broke apart and he died of the fall.  Googlemeister (talk) 14:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Or if he survived the fall but his upper body was eaten by sharks. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:14, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

late 80s radio program - tough one
The other day I was thinking about an old radio program I used to listen to in the late 80's, early 90's. Basically a bizarre comedy program where this guy would splice together these odd monologues with snippets of weird (often drone-type) music - the overall effect was kind of like flipping through AM radio channels at three in the morning on some not-too-normal planet. I seem to remember that the guy's name was part of the program name, and I heard it in California on one of the channels that carried the Hearts of Space program (though of course it probably was syndicated). Does anyone know what I'm talking about and remember what it was called? -- Ludwigs 2 10:05, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably not what you are looking for as it was later but Blue Jam was similar and worth a listen, , very NSFW  meltBanana  13:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There's an outside possibility that you were in Ivor Cutler territory - he's been known to accompany his own strange monologues with a droney Harmonium. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Joe Frank? WikiDao    &#9775;  15:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Joe Frank is sounding like a likely possibility. I'll have to investigate further.  -- Ludwigs 2  02:58, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

presenting bussiness plan
Hi, I am Arjun, an engineering student. I have dream project. I had wasted last 5 years behind this. Now I have a clear cut idea about by project(business plan). As I coming from backward family, I can't able to find the huge amount of money needed for the project. In this circumstance I decided to meet some businessman. For this I wrote letters to get permission for meeting them and to describe my project. In the last weak I got a permission letter from a cooperate businessman. He needs me to give an detail report and small narration about the project. I had prepared report and slides for this purpose. Now I have an doubt that if I had given the detail description and report, then he may stool my project and make his own. I don't know how to prevent this. Can u give me some idea to prevent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.82.69 (talk) 10:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Your problem is finding a business partner that you can work with. You are worried about trusting a person that (it seems) you have not met. Trust has to work both ways and I think he has to explain why he could be interested in the field of your project. You don't say what that field is, but you must be able to describe what your ideas will achieve and how much it will cost to do this. Read the article Business plan because this tells what information an investor will look for, and you say your project needs a sizeable investment. If there is an original engineering idea that you have worked on, I think you should speak openly about it. It will sound better if you tell him that you spent 5 years developing the project, because 5 years wasted sounds bad. An investor is not likely to involve himself directly in technical work and will respect your engineering competence. However do not give him a printed report that he can pass on to another engineer who will be capable of copying your idea. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This actually sounds like a legal question, rather than a reference question. You should probably consult with competent legal authority (a lawyer) that specializes in business law. --Quartermaster (talk) 14:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * An important way to protect an invention is by a patent. Genuine investors in projects that involve an invention usually expect to see that a patent has been applied for. I agree that you probably need legal advice. There are many books on starting a new business that could be useful as well. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure this is a legal question, though consulting with a lawyer might be a useful way to protect your intellectual property. One way might be to draw up a non-disclosure agreement (for which you would need a lawyer) and get your prospective business partner to sign it before you show him anything. Alternatively, maybe you could lodge a copy of your business plan somewhere secure - again, a lawyer's office or maybe the bank - but make sure your get a date-stamped acknowledgement.  Astronaut (talk) 15:18, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, a confidentiality agreement is most commonly used to protect an idea that is easily stolen; but most investors won't sign confidentiality agreements. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree Comet Tuttle. Based on my experience, most potential investors are required to sign some sort of confidentiality agreement before they are allowed to look at whatever it is that they are investing in. The main exception is for public offering of securities, which I don't think is what is being discussed here. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

new content listing
How do I go about getting my new consulting business listed in the Cincinnati Wiki for Solar? The site address is www.cincihomesolar.com

Thanks Joe Utasi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.236.242 (talk) 17:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A search doesn't find any Cincinnati wiki for solar so a link to the site may help. However generally speaking asking the site themselves is your best bet. Although before that I would look at the site and see if they have any info on whether it's possible for your business to be listed and if so what you do since many sites will already have such info. If you're referring to anything on wikipedia, then the simple answer is you can't Nil Einne (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I found which calles it's a Cincinnati wiki. However they don't appear to have anything on solar. Actually they don't appear to have anythin much at all so I'm not sure if there's any point, even their FAQ doesn't exist but if you really want to add your site I would suggest you register and try asking. They may be more welcoming if you add additional content other then your business. In truth since theirlast change was in 21:49, 11 Aug 2009  I don't know if you'll get a response (and I'm even less convinced there's much point) Nil Einne (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, it is clearly becoming the case that, however much the wikigentsia may object, "wiki" is coming to mean "page on Wikipedia". --ColinFine (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the actual question is how he'd list his site at our Cincinnati article, and the short answer there is that you don't. Our policy on external links notes that creating an "encyclopedic understanding of the subject" is one of the primary criteria for linking elsewhere.  "Encyclopedic" should not be confused with "exhaustive", and we're nearly always going to decide against becoming a business directory. &mdash; Lomn 19:23, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Which Federal agency manages day-to-day facilities and operations for the United States Congress?
After reading this headline, a question about bureaucracy came to my mind. Some Federal agency must manage the day-to-day facilities and operations of the Congress (and the Capitol Building). To which Cabinet-level Federal agency does that agency report? I am trying to figure out which cabinet-level minister is the boss' boss's boss of the guy responsible for picking the cafeteria menus and other "amenities" (brand of toilet paper, and so on) in the Capitol Building and elsewhere in the Capitol Complex. At first I thought it might be the National Park Service, who manage the Capitol campus tourist sites; and therefore the Department of the Interior. A quick search from the House website led me to "Architect of the Capitol"; but I'm having a hard time figuring out who they report to, and I'm still unsure if they're actually the decision-making agency that picks the plastic silverware in the congressional cafeteria. Nimur (talk) 22:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I've found the answer: the Architect of the Capitol is appointed by the President, but after confirmation by the Senate, never reports to the President again. The responsibilities of the Architect include "the operation of the Senate Restaurants" subject to approval by the Senate Committee on Rules and Administration; the operations of the House cafeteria are subject to approval by the House Office Building Commission.  These committees are respectively staffed by Senators and Representatives (who effectively get to pick their own lunch menu).  So in effect, the President of the United States has only one chance every ten years to stick the legislators with lousy cafeteria food.  Nimur (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Article One's trump clause is "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings." You could read that narrowly, but in practice, for several offices, such as the Congressional Budget Office and the Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate, the President never gets involved at all.  So if a President were to attempt to terrorize Congress with an unacceptable choice, Congress would probably vote to strip the President of his power over Congressional cafeteria food, and the Supreme Court would probably refuse to get involved.  --M @ r ē ino 17:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As Congress is entirely separate from the Executive Branch, Congress's own units, such as the above-mentioned Congressional Budget Office, don't fall under the purview of any Cabinet agency. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Are American architects trained in catering management? DuncanHill (talk) 03:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No, "Architect of the Capitol" is just a title that incorporates all management of the Capitol grounds. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)