Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 July 20

= July 20 =

pneumatic drills
There are workmen outside my office working on resurfacing a road. They poured about 30cm deep concrete on to their site which is maybe 30m across) and then put bricks or tiles (of quite nice blue stone) over the concrete in a nice interlocking pattern. They left three holes in the tiles which are presumably for some sort of street furniture.  The holes are about a meter across.  Now there are three men with pneumatic drills, one in each hole, drilling the original concrete away but being careful not to disturb the tiles that surround the holes.  Why are they drilling concrete away that they themselves set down only a few days ago? Robinh (talk) 00:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably because it's easier to lay down a large, uniform sheet of concrete and then "chip away" the bits you need than to carefully plan out odd shapes. -- Jayron  32  01:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * As Jayron notes, and particularly in road work, it's often easier to do that to make the surface uniform, particularly if there are cross slopes and the like. They may have set pour stops or some other kind of barrier into the concrete so they can just chip back to the stop for a clean edge. Bracing pour stops in a 30cm pour would probably be as much work as taking a hammer to it. Seven-day-old concrete is not yet up to its 28-day full strength, so it would be easier to break.  Acroterion   (talk)   01:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * OK thanks guys, that makes sense. I can see that the pouring a uniform layer is easier than having some complicated system of battens.  But I'm still not clear why they need to chip anything away, seeing as there are rods of steel maybe 3cm thick and maybe 0.4m long  emerging vertically from these holes.  I presumed that these rods were for anchoring the street furniture to, but maybe not.  So, why the need to chip anything away? Robinh (talk) 03:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hard to tell without seeing it. Maybe it will become plain once they've gotten farther along. You're probably correct about the anchorage, although if they're bare rebar, rather than threaded rods, they may be preparing to make another pour.  Acroterion   (talk)   03:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * To fit forms in the concrete that would be small enough, they would have to be removed by drilling anyway so it'e easier to drill directly into the concrete.  Sumsum2010 · T · C  04:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

(OP) OK, but why lay the tiles and *then* chip away? Why not chip away what needs to be chipped, and then lay the tiles? It seemed as though the drill operators had to be super-careful so as not to disturb the perfectly placed tiles. I guess I'm assuming that the workers are doing everything in optimal way. Cheers, Robinh (talk) 09:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the tiles are laid early to get best adhesion to the concrete while it is softening. Perhaps the 1m diameter holes are for planting trees. Time will tell. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that a large portion of the expense for most endeavors is manpower, not material. Given the scheduling of the various crews on various projects, it may be most efficient to have a larger tile-laying crew come in soon after the concrete is poured, and then have the smaller hole-drilling crew come in later, rather than have the tile-laying crew waiting around for the hole-drilling crew to finish up - even if that means the hole-drilling crew has to spend extra time to avoid damaging the tiles. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 18:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

(OP) Hmm. The mystery deepens! @cuddlyable3: they layed their 20cm of concrete, then stuck the tiles with what looked like grey gravel but must have been cement, about 5cm thick. @20.229: if manpower is important, why have a work practice that involves each pneumatic drill operator carefully pussyfooting round precisely laid tiles? Or maybe someone screwed up the order of work. Best wishes, Robinh (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Why not stroll out onto the street and ask one of the workmen? And then come back here and share the solution with us? 94.172.117.205 (talk) 12:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Forum for things that can't be discussed here
I know that one can't ask for advice about friends, family, co-workers, etc. here, or shouldn't anyway. What's a good site to go to for that kind of discussion? No, I'm not going to base major life decisions on what a bunch of random strangers say on the Internet. -- 174.116.177.235 (talk) 00:54, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I recommend Yahoo Answers. Sure, you'll get a lot of opinions from non-experts and kids acting like fools, but sometimes you'll get something insightful. Foofish (talk) 01:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You could do a Google search for "family advice forum" or something of the sort. Dismas |(talk) 03:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The AskME section of MetaFilter hosts questions like this. There is a small registration fee to post, so the quality and breadth of answers may be affected (positively or negatively, depending on your view).-- Kateshortforbob talk  09:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I can vouch for AskMe - there seems to be a large pool of different people from all walks of life, that seem to be able to answer most questions, especially about relationships and family and so on. Most are well thought out and articulate, as mentioned the $5 fee keeps the trolls out, and the board is modded quite thoroughly - sometimes too thoroughly for my liking :-) 121.44.114.197 (talk) 02:25, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

FedEx tracking status
I'm tracking a package on FedEx and am confused by the status:


 * Jul 19, 2011 5:22 PM - Left FedEx origin facility - SHANGHAI CN
 * Jul 19, 2011 2:48 AM - Shipment information sent to FedEx
 * Jul 19, 2011 3:33 PM - Picked up - SHANGHAI CN - Package received after FedEx cutoff

Am I to assume that it's on the plane, even though the package was apparently received too late in the day? Or is it simply moving to another nearby facility? What's the difference between "left FedEx origin facility" and "in transit"? Anna talk 04:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say probably but without knowing the particulars of FedEx's warehouse and transit organisation (and perhaps even destination and package info) in that area it's difficult to say until there's further info from FedEx. Nil Einne (talk) 08:56, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Chess draw question
I was playing Chessmaster. My opponent had only a king left. I had a queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and several pawns. I tried to move one of my rooks and the game ended in a draw because the program said that I had "insufficient material". I do not understand how that could be. I could have easily defeated my opponent in a couple of moves. Please explain. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.244.106.201 (talk) 05:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See software bug. Looie496 (talk) 06:13, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you put the king in a position where it could not move without going into a check situation? --Lgriot (talk) 09:30, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * To expand on Lgriot, when you have that much against just a King, the chances of stalemate are quite high. On your last move, did you place him in check? (Can you even remember!) Also, do you mean Chessmaster? --Dweller (talk) 09:45, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * None of those would be insufficient material -- insufficient material means not having pieces capable of forcing checkmate, for example having only a king and a single bishop. Either the description of the situation is incorrect, or its a bug, there is really no other possibility. Looie496 (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

PVC 1.5mm and 2.5mm sq Cable
What is the maximum amp that PVC 1.5mm2 and 2.5mm2 supported? Example i which to wiring my lighting and socket, so i need to figure out the number of light that i can loop for my 6A circuit breaker. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laisming (talk • contribs) 12:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Published ratings are 19A for 1.5mm2 and 20 A for 2.5mm2. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think they are very similar because the 1.5mm2 cable you've found is a fire resistant version. Click on the similar products tab for the 2.5mm2 product and you'll see it quotes 15A. --Phil Holmes (talk) 15:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * ... and, of course, if the wiring is protected by a 6A circuit breaker then this is the limiting factor, not the wiring rating.   D b f i r s   07:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Money
Is money legally considered property? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.151.104 (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not that I am aware of; as you can spend it, can't you?  Rcsprinter  (talk)  15:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends on what you mean by "property". In common law systems, there is a distinction made between "real property" which includes land and structures like houses and barns and stuff like that, and "personal property" which includes stuff you can pick up and carry around.  Many laws treat the two kinds of property differently.  Money would be considered, legally, of the second type of property; though it may also be considered under some systems to be its own class of property distinct from objects.  It would depend on your local jurisdiction as to what was "legally" considered property.  -- Jayron  32  15:21, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In the basic sense that it can be owned, can be exchanged for goods, services, land or buildings, can be stolen, can be left in a will, can be donated and can be lent: yes, it is considered property. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► Speaker ─╢ 15:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, keep in mind that there is potentially a distinction between money and currency - that is, the economic value itself and the physical coin/bill representation of that value. Although most jurisdictions may consider the monetary value to be your property, some jurisdictions (although I can't point to any specific examples) may make the claim that the physical tokens themselves remain the property of the government. (As many do with passports and other forms of identification - you can keep them and use them, although technically they remain the property of the government.) Even if the physical coins/bills are considered to be your property, they may be an encumbrance on their possession, for example prohibitions on defacement, destruction, etc. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 18:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In Australia, this is definitely true. In the good old days, diggers who were bored when waiting for action used to bash pennies into the shape of hats (quite an effort, I know), but the souvenir version I got of one (I think it wasn't an original one from those times) stated on the packaging that it was illegal, as it was then a coin of the realm. Don't quote me saying it was actually soldiers, for it may have been gold-prospectors or the like, but I did once hold the souvenir coin. The law remains to this day, and indeed, there was nearly a prosecution about it, criminal no less: see and use ctrl-f to search for "Keating". It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Depression or assholes? Source requested
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, just make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."

I'd like to find the original source document (e.g. interview/article/transcript/tweet/blog post) for the above quotation. I tried googling but there was too much noise. 86.43.163.179 (talk) 15:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems to be ascribed to William Gibson, but it's not on his WikiQuote page. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:03, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know it's ascribed to Gibson, but I'm looking to verify the specific source if possible. 86.45.0.203 (talk) 10:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

EMPTY HOUSE
HOW CAN I FIND OUT IF A EMPTY HOUSE IN A PRIVATE ESTATE IN BATTLE  HILL IS FOR SALE ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.98.234.185 (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You could find out who the owner of record is for the house. This is usually the person and/or entity that pays the property taxes, which is a matter of public record.  -- Jayron  32  19:36, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You can also ask at any real-estate office that serves that area. Even if there is no active listing, the agents tend to know the status of anything even remotely saleable. Bielle  (talk) 03:31, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You could also look on a property website such as . AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:01, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You could also send a mail to the address saying that you are interested in buying. The chances are someone will eithe pick up for the owner or s/he will have mail forwarding. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Are these two diagrams consistent?
I deem it impossible that the average GDP of South America and Latin America diverge that much, given that they overlap in most instances. So, what is correct here? --KnightMove (talk) 19:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The difference between Latin America and South America is likely influenced by Mexico, which is a significant portion of Central America, and which may have a significantly higher standard of living than much of South America. There is a wide varience in Central American economies, in particular Nicaragua is particularly poor, while nearby Costa Rica is somewhat better off.  Indeed, if you look at List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita you see that Mexico is ranked at 59th by the IMF data, higher than the large countries in S. America like Brazil (71st), Columbia (83rd), etc.  -- Jayron  32  19:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Jayron is right that Mexico is the main difference, economically, between South America and Latin America as a whole. (That is, it is by far the largest Latin American economy outside South America, and second only to Brazil among Latin American economies in size.)  In your first graph, Chile is compared to the rest of South America between 1972 and 1990, just a part of the period shown on your second graph.  During this period, Chile is close to the mean for South America, but below the mean for Latin America.  This is not surprising considering economic history, because it was during this period that Mexico experienced more rapid GDP growth than most Latin American economies due to the liberalization of its economy and the early development of maquiladoras.  During the subsequent period (1990–2010), we see that Chile's GDP per capita rises above the average for Latin America.  In fact, today, according to the CIA World Factbook, Chile's GDP per capita is higher than that of Mexico.  It has grown faster over the past 20 years than Mexico because it began a process of liberalization later than Mexico and because it has benefited from the commodities boom of the past 10 years much more than Mexico.  Marco polo (talk) 20:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Still, according to the diagram the average GDP of Latin America is nearly twice the GDP of South America, and even if the GPD of Mexico would be three times the one of South America, this is impossible. --KnightMove (talk) 09:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The absolute numbers cannot be compared because the two graphs are measuring different things. The shapes of the graphs, and the relative position of Chile to them, may be more relevent, but the numbers running down the Y-axis shouldn't be directly compared because the two graphs dont' use the same set of data.  -- Jayron  32  22:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The main difference between the two charts is that the first is in nominal US dollars and the second in constant dollars. The first, therefore, includes all price and currency value changes when determining each point on the lines, whereas the other does not. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, therefore the first shows a somewhat higher GDP for Chile, but this even increases the difference between South America and Latin America. --KnightMove (talk) 09:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait a sec... if the second diagram uses the dollar value of 2000, Chile should due to inflation have a higher GDP per capita than in the other diagram, shouldn't it? --KnightMove (talk) 09:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, because if Chile had greater inflation than the US, it would be canceled out by a drop in Chile's exchange rate. I don't have time to look up the numbers, but I think it unlikely that Chile's inflation was lower than that of the US.  If it were, then Chile's exchange rate should have risen relative to the dollar.  So, to the extent that there were differences in inflation, changes in the exchange rate would have (approximately) canceled them out.  Marco polo (talk) 14:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I had a talk with user @cantus and he added his source for the second diagram . The source for the first diagram is linked on the decription page (United Nations Statistics Division, choose Chile and South America, GDP per capita US$, 1972-1990). --Pass3456 (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Help identifying letters around an ignition keyhole please
Hello. I would like to know what the letters around the keyhole of a boat's ignition mean. They are, in clockwise order, HS; H; OFF; A; S.

Off is fairly self-evident but I'm curious as to the meaning of the other letters. The following info may be useful: The boat has a diesel engine which requires warming before starting but the dashboard has no 'glowing coil' symbol. (I've looked at ignition systems and glowplugs but they haven't helped).

If any of you wise people can help, It would be much appreciated. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.140.33 (talk) 19:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure what "HS" and "H" mean, but by analogy to a car ignition switch, "A" usually stands for "accessory" and is the position where you engage the vehicle's electrical systems, such as the radio and lights, but do not run the engine itself. "S" is probably "start" which engages the starting motor.  The ignition usually returns automatically from "Start" to "accessory" when the key is released, since once the engine is running, there is no need for the starting motor.  -- Jayron  32  19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Warning, this answer is based on a lot of guesswork. Based on this page, I'm guessing that HS and H may be for "heat start" and "heat", with the key springing back from HS to H, just as it presumably does from S to A.  I couldn't find any links that mentioned a five position switch.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  19:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)