Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 May 21

= May 21 =

followup question to eurozone withdrawal
"uncollectable greek debt (Greek debt denominated in Euros would now be, say, 50% more costly for Greece to repay ... it's unlikely enough right now that they have the capacity to repay debts; they'd have much less capacity if the debt now costs half as much again to repay), as well as some loss of confidence in the Euro, leading to a devaluation against the dollar, which again would cost Euro users."

So two costs of withdrawal to the eurozone are identified: 1. default of debt to other European countries 2. devaluation of the Euro (because of the default of Greek debt?)

1: But if Greek withdrawal will down the road lead to recovery, won't the Greeks be able to resume paying debts years from now. And won't that recovery have the effect of solving the two identified problems?

2: Are there any other costs to Eurozone countries because of Greek withdrawal?

Askingaquestion (talk) 01:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a cost attributable to the loss of certainty (that the exchange rate between Greece and other EuroZone economies will remain constant), which is likely to be expressed at sharply higher interest rates and rates for certain kinds of business-related insurance (default insurance, non-payment insurance and derivatives based on interest rate swaps). As for other countries, the risk is that once one economy has withdrawn from the Euro, there will be less of a stigma attached to the second or third one to withdraw, which would significantly raise their cost of funds. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

"New Pence" coins - still OK?
I have some old British "new pence" and £1 coins from the early 1980s. Are they still legal tender in the UK? Do shops accept them? Yuunli (talk) 06:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, the "new penny" (1/100 of a pound sterling) is the current penny of the UK, so they should be acceptable coinage no matter when they were minted. There may be issues with an "old penny" (1/240 of a pound sterling), but since those haven't been issued since 1971, you should be OK with anything issued in the 1980s.  Penny (British decimal coin) and Penny (British pre-decimal coin) has some background on the two coins.  -- Jayron  32  06:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You are completely correct Jayron. It is possible that the OP believes that the UK uses the euro - which we don't. Richard Avery (talk) 07:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * However the five and ten pence coins were both reduced in size (in the 1990s) and the older versions were demonetised, so if you had any of those you wouldn't be able to use them. Mikenorton (talk) 07:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've used them before, so I think you could probably just get away with it. I think they are, in metal terms, now worth considerably more than face value (as to be expected). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 08:35, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You mean the ones that actually say 'New Pence' on, rather than just 'One Penny' and so on, they are still allowed, noone'll even notice, I'm sure. They only don't still make them because the new penny isn't really that new any more. Same money, they just don't bother writing it all out any more, we are lazy like that here. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 08:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The old 5p and 10p coins might be accepted in a shop (although I doubt it), but don't try using them in a slot machine. A bank might be prepared to exchange them for their more modern counterparts, although I'm not sure about that, but allegedly you can change them at a Post Office at no cost. Mikenorton (talk) 10:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The same applies to the large 50p coin which was replaced with a smaller version in 1997. The larger 5p, 10p, and 50p coins will definitely not be accepted in any shops, but all the other coins are fine. I suspect the story about the metal in some everyday coins being worth more than their face value is a myth, otherwise everyone would be melting them down.--Shantavira|feed me 11:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think they're worth that much more. I've never had any problem using the old, larger, coins in all manner of shops (although they probably don't have to accept them, as noted). I thought they'd be worth more, as I though this was the reason they were changed. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you all for your input. So the old 5p, 10p and 50p coins I have may not be accepted, being larger than their modern counterparts. Only the 1p, 2p ("two new pence") and £1 coins shouldn't pose any problems. Yuunli (talk) 14:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The £1 coin hasn't changed its size since it was introduced in 1983 (though there have been several different designs), so there would be no problem with those. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The oldest coins currently in circulation are 1p and 2p coins dated 1971. We stopped putting "new" on the coins after 1982 (except for a small number of 1983 2ps which accidentally had the wrong "tails" side put on - if you find one of them you're quite wealthy). Coins from the 1980s are still valid except for the 1/2p coin which was withdrawn in 1984, and also 5p coins dated before 1990, 10p coins dated before 1992, and 50p coins dated before 1997, which were all replaced by smaller designs. The story about some coins being worth more for their metal than face value is only occasionally true, depending on market prices, but it's why 1p and 2p coins are now made from copper-plated steel rather than copper, and are consequently a little thicker than their 1970s/80s equivalents (though they're still in circulation). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 12:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Even if the metal is worth more than the coins say, money isn't supposed to be melted down, and chances are it would cost more to do so than the actual small scraps of resultant copper are worth. Though, the article does say the old copper coins are very rare now. Though I know from experience a significant portion of coins are dated 1971, so I am not sure how accurate that is. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 13:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Melting of penny and nickel Coins is a criminal offence in the US and is punishable with a fine of up to $10,000 and/or imprisonment for a maximum of five years Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant, this topic is about British coins. Roger (talk) 15:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not completely irrelevant, as it is likely that the UK has a similar law. In fact, the Royal Mint says "Under Section 10 of the 1971 Coinage Act - no person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is currently in circulation in the United Kingdom." The penalty for which  is listed as a fine up to £400 and/or imprisonment for a maximum of two years. There are also anecdotal claims that defacing an image of the Queen (which is on all coins of the pound sterling) is considered treason, although I can't find if that was ever true with respect to coins, or even if it was true, if that law has been overturned/superseded. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 22:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Overturned most likely, or all those elongated coin machines would be illegal. Exxolon (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never seen one of those in the UK. DuncanHill (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They are all over the place - see for a non-exhaustive list. Exxolon (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The article mentions the legal situation in the US and unspecified parts of Europe (allegedly legal) and Canada (allegedly illegal but usually ignored) but not the UK. I presume the machine itself is unlikely to be illegal, after all you can probably use other coins or blank slugs like they sometimes do in Canada, even if people using it on local coins are technically violating the law. It wouldn't surprise me if an ancient law on defacing an image of the queen/sovereign is widely believed to violate things like the European Convention on Human Rights and has not been tested in court in a long time and is unlikely to ever be tested but was never literally overturned or ruled against. Nil Einne (talk) 16:41, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A law that is widely obeyed hardly needs ever be overturned. The Queen of GB is much revered by her adoring subjects. All stand for the anthem please. I experienced the case of a British magazine that refused to print a photograph that had a TV in view that happened to be displaying a pound note with the Queen's picture on it. You may be seated. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The price of copper has increased slightly since 2006, when this was reported, but only the 1p and 2p coins contain copper worth more than their face value. The 5p, 10p and 50p are only 75% copper and the largest (old 50p) would probably be worth only around 5p for the metal. It's a criminal offence in the UK to destroy a coin (for any coin that has been current in the UK at any time since 16 May 1969) - see Coinage Act 1971 and Treasury guidelines on coins and banknotes, and ccording to the Royal Mint's FAQ some banks may still accept the withdrawn coins. Peter E. James (talk) 15:18, 21 May 2011 (UTC)