Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 October 14

= October 14 =

berglas effect
anybody have any theory how this is done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Link to YouTube - There's a link to a video so that people don't have to do too much of their own research to answer your question. Dismas |(talk) 01:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge Berglas's technique for this trick is not known.
 * An important hint is the fact that he does not shuffle the deck. This implies that the deck is ordered in some way.
 * Personally, I strongly suspect that whichever guesser goes second is a stooge. (In those videos the number guesser goes second.) It's also conceivable that the card-turner is a stooge who is very good at slight of hand, or that he has three different ways of performing the trick each involving a stooge in one of the three roles.
 * Everyone, including pros, seems very convinced that the audience members are not stooges, but perhaps part of the trick is managing the stooges so well that even pros don't believe he's using them.
 * Regardless of how the trick is done, it's done very well. He's intentionally targeting the trick at both pros and laymen, and apparently pulling it off. APL (talk) 04:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Jacob Bronowski glasses
Did Jacob Bronowski wear fake (flat plano glass) glasses? If so, why?

In many of the scenes of The Ascent of Man they look fake, you can see undistorted reflections off of them, in others, they appear normal. Perhaps plano-concave lenses were more popular in the 70's?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ-7DmCZ-y8#t=13m30s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.32.169 (talk) 01:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know at all, but those could just be costume glasses. Just as those clothes might belong to the studio, it's possible that his real glasses were deemed not telegenic enough and he was given a prop from the wardrobe department.  Sometimes even local portrait photographers will do that.
 * In the photo on his Wikipedia article, his spectacles clearly have a strong lens on at least the right-hand side. (our left) APL (talk) 04:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks from the photo that the left lens might be a lot weaker, perhaps almost flat (based on the image of his eye behind it). Having said that, I have quite strong glasses for shortsightedness, and the front surface is still nearly flat, with all the curvature on the back. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Birth Certificate in Papua New Guinea
proof of my daughters birth in Goroka, Papua New Guinea, was apparently destroyed by fire. Where can I go now to get proof she exists as she has no birth certificate?

my daughter was born at the Goroka hospital in the then territory of Papua New Guinea in 1965, over the years' we have tried to get a birth certificate for her without success.

I have tried contacting the hospital directly and was told the records were destroyed by fire some time ago.

I am hoping some how, some way, I can find a way to get some sort of proof of her birth, as she has been refused enrollment for her children into QLD schools without proof of their births, and to get this information she need a birth certificate or at least a document to say where she was born, and who she is. it's amazing because the department of social security had a document when she claimed family benefits back in 1984 but they claim they don't have them anymore so as everyone can see we need help. I do remember the doctor who delivered my daughter was Margaret Smith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.110.89 (talk) 02:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming you are in Australia, from the IP address and QLD? Have you tried to "get" her Citizenship via Form 118 - Application for Australian citizenship by descent? I'm not sure what all that entails, but the opening seems to match your needs: "If you were born outside Australia on or after 26 January 1949 you may be eligible for Australian citizenship by descent if at least one of your parents was an Australian citizen at the time of your birth." Otherwise, it may be a good time to reach out to a lawyer. Avic ennasis @ 02:52, 16 Tishrei 5772 / 02:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the Papua New Guinea embassy in Australia may be able to help-they might know how to get a copy birth certificate for someone born there before independence. Where were the grandchildren born-Papua New Guinea or Australia? Lemon martini (talk) 12:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * As Papua New Guinea was part of Australia in 1965, apply for a birth certificate extract from Births, Deaths and Marriages in Australia. Sleigh (talk) 06:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Apollo 1 Space Suits
Are any of the spacesuits worn during the Apollo 1 fire on public display anywhere (or have they ever been in the last 20 years)? I could have sworn that I saw one of them displayed in the mid 1990s, but the internet isn't helping me out. I thought it was at the U.S. Space & Rocket Center, but again, I'm not sure. Buddy431 (talk) 05:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Somebody on this forum discussion about the topic (about 1/10 of the way down) says the ones at the Space & Rocket Center are training suits. It would be rather ghoulish to display the actual ones in which the three astronauts were killed. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Possible scam or casing?
This might just be the weirdest serious question recently and it is a long story, so please bear with me... I was at my apartment (in Arizona and not in an upper class neighborhood) tonight with a friend. Around 10:45 pm I get a knock on my door (very unusual at that time). I open the door to a woman around 40 years of age. She is carrying a workout bag and a tennis racket. She is dressed decently, but after some thought it is clear that she wasn't dressed for tennis (there also aren't any courts near where I live). She says that she lives in my complex (it is large so I don't know everybody by a long shot) and asks to use my cell phone to call her daughter. I don't want to be rude to a neighbor so I give her my phone. She presses what seems to be a large number of numbers before talking on the phone in a strange conversation about her daughter using condoms (no joke). While she is talking I walk back into my apartment and she follows me inside. After the conversation she asks for a glass of water. I'm starting to get suspicious, but I don't want to be rude to a neighbor and I can't be sure she isn't one, so I provide it. She then sits down next to my friend on the couch and proceeds to ask her a long series of questions about where she is from, which my friend cautiously answers not revealing anything more than her home state and her dads profession as a lawyer. At this point she asks to use my phone again to call her other daughter. I give it, really just wanting to get her to leave. Again she presses a number of buttons, when the conversation (very fake) is over she starts pressing more buttons so I stand up and look what she is doing. She says she is deleting her daughter's number. I say "ok" and she makes extremely awkward small talk for another minute before leaving. My friend and I talk for a minute and realize that she definitely didn't call her daughters and the situation is very strange. I then walk outside to see if she is around, to find her sitting on the curb in my parking lot. I ask her where she lives in my complex and she accuses me of wanting to rob her if she tells me where she lives. I say I am going to call the police and she says if I do she will accuse me of wanting to have sex with her daughter. She then gets up and walks out of the complex. My first guess was that she was on some sort of drug, but the tennis racket leads me to believe it was some sort of scam, it really did make me trust her a little bit. What on earth could she have gotten from me by calling two numbers from my cell? Was she just casing my apartment for future robbery? I did have my crumby laptop on my coffee table, but besides from that I really own nothing of value. I called the local police non emergency line, but after telling them the above crazy story, they not surprisingly dismissed it. Thanks for reading this TL;DR story, any thoughts are much appreciated. -- Daniel 07:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * She did delete the first number from my phone, but left the second, the one she said she was going to delete. -- Daniel 07:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * See Insanity. If she lived in your complex she can go home and use her own phone. I suggest that in the future you don't let weird strangers into your house at night. I would also suggest taking her photo, though the legality for that changes by area, and sending the photo to the police/neighbours. Public awareness (talk) 07:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There are a variety of forms of phone fraud but despite people sometimes claiming this happens with borrowed phones, these rely on either a lot of people calling the numbers or the number being called for along time (e.g. using malware) and even then a fair number of victims is still needed, for it to be worth it to the scammers. BTW, deleting the number seems fairly pointless, even if you don't have itemised billing or records available, the phone company almost definitely has records which you could likely request access to (potentially at a cost). There are a few thing you may want to check. If you have a smart phone you may want to make sure there's nothing suspicious on your phone. Also if your phone was part of a secondary authentication system for you bank (or something similar), make sure that there hasn't been any unauthorised transaction. But neither of these sound that likely. In reality, there is any way we can know what was going on. It could be she has mental issues, it could be she was casing your house, it could be she really was playing tennis and changed clothes or something before coming home and has a bit of an odd family and is a bit paranoid, it could be she was on drugs. Nil Einne (talk) 09:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * What made you think Wikipedia rather than the police? First, file a police report.  Then get a copy of your phone records.  Most carriers will allow you to do this online.  Provide the information to the police.  Contact a lawyer who has a private investigator on retainer.  And file a police report.  Do the last even if you have to take time off.  The police may be aware of a pattern of such activity. μηδείς (talk) 11:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The OP said they already called the police.... Nil Einne (talk) 12:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think a possibility is that she called a 900 number of her ownership. More information [here]. Quest09 (talk) 11:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's definitely a possibility but as I said, I find this unlikely. From what I've read the amount of money they can make per minute isn't that large in relative terms therefore such fraud requires either a lot of marks or they spend a long time on the phone (and even then still quite a few marks). So the way they do this is by semi-automated ways of conning people in to calling said numbers via spam to e-mail, mail, faxes or phone numbers. I didn't link above but is also useful. Despite some suggestions of it happening to people who lend their phones, I'm not actually finding much evidence of that. (The best reason to be wary when lending your phone to someone is they may run away with it, although not likely if it's at home.) And someone going to people's apartment and then hanging around later is likely to get even fewer marks then someone who goes around a public place. One thing I did forget to mention, even if it turns out nothing untoward happened, I would still recommend if someone wants to borrow your phone in the future to make a cal and you decide to trust them, tell them you will dial the number and not to push any buttons except the end call button. Particularly if you have a smart phone. Nil Einne (talk) 12:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you are talking about US 900 numbers, whereas I linked to international 900 numbers. (900 here is just a name of a premium-rate number, not an actual prefix). If the number was indeed very long, it might be the case. On the other hand, one thing speaks against it being a scam: a con artist would likely try to make just one call, prepare his talk, and not hang around asking for water. Quest09 (talk) 13:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually both the Snopes source and the phone fraud source suggest US 900 numbers are rarely used with such overt fraud because of effective regulations. Instead the mention scams using numbers, primarily in the Caribbean as they look like US numbers but aren't and don't normally require an international dial code in the US. (Obviously these factors aren't an issue if the person made the call.) Many of these aren't real premium numbers either, but simply normal numbers in these countries but some of/ their telecommunications compan/ies are willing to give some of the proceeds of their high toll call interconnect fee to the customer. (Your own source mentions this.) So the only real recourse is to cut off specific numbers when there are reports of them being used for fraud or cut off the entire country; or perhaps government and telco pressure (which may lead to agreements to reduce the problems).
 * While there are international premium numbers, only some of which use 900, I'm don't know how commonly these can be dialled from a foreign country (to the premium number). In particular I find it unlikely many telecommunications companies in developed countries like the US would allow any interconnection agreement where they may charge thousands of dollars for a short call for these overseas premium numbers, and I doubt there are any international agreements requiring it. And if this was a common problem, one would think it would be more widely reported in reputable sources. (As I said, it's not that fraud doesn't exist, but where it does it's the semi-automated kind where they make their money by getting a lot of people to call so it becomes worth it even though the amount per mark is generally something probably significantly under $100 and that's what all reports in reliable sources suggest. Or occasionally they don't need so many people but somehow get them to stay on the line a very long time like installing dialers in phones or computers.)
 * Incidentally, I found which is similar to Snopes but it quotes the old ATT website (the Snopes linked to it but I didn't check it very well) where they mention how the normal rate for one of these countries is $4/minute, although it also mentions some may have pay-per-call services with additional fees the possible cost of which isn't mentioned (but if you read the overall source it seems clear they are suggesting thousands of dollars for a short call is extremely unlikely). I also noticed the current version  at AT&T specifically links to Snopes suggesting they agree with the Snopes view.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There have been scams with numbers one can call in the caribbean that charge on the order of USD$10,000.00. People were getting hang up calls from these numbers in the early 2000's.  When they called back they incurred the charge.  If someone needs to make a phone call, dial only to an area code you know and dial for them--if you must.
 * As is explained in the Snopes article that Nil Einne links to above, the amounts reported in some stories about such calls were often vastly exaggerated. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't suppose its worth outing myself to explain why I happen to know otherwise, since, in any case, if you must let some random lunatic make a phone call from your cell phone you still do not let her dial. μηδείς (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The way you describe it, it is almost certainly a scam. Call your cell provider and tell them about this.  Ask them for details about those two calls.  You need to know things like: what number, call duration, and cost including related taxes/fees etc.  I would not be at all surprised if it was a premium rate, revenue sharing number either within the US or in another country.  If you think you have been the victim of fraud, tell the police and go see your lawyer.  As for the waiting around your apartment making small talk, it probably seems less suspicious and may present the opportunity to make a second call (as in your case).  212.123.243.220 (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You could also see if Googling the numbers called leads to any forums discussing scams. 212.123.243.220 (talk) 13:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * If it were me, I'd contact the cell phone provider for any records of the calls. If they charge you a few bucks, it'd be worth it for peace of mind.  Then I'd Google the numbers.  Googling numbers that come up on the caller ID as "Unknown caller" has helped me in the past.  Also, I'd write down what the woman was wearing and what she looked like.  If she was casing your apartment, it'll be handy to have around for when your memory of her face fades.
 * And I love how people throw around phrases like "talk to your lawyer". The OP already said it was "not in an upper class neighborhood", so what are the chances of them having a lawyer on speed dial?  Though your friend's father may be able to help if they are local to your area.  I have a friend whose parents are a lawyer and an accountant and they've been willing to help me out with small things a few times.  Dismas |(talk) 16:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * On another tack, are you sure nothing was taken from your apartment at the time? It may we worth considering that the visitor was trying to find an opportunity to be alone inside your house - perhaps the request for water was the pretext for a distraction burglary (redlinked? maybe you call it something different in the US) that ended up effectively being foiled by the presence of you and/or your friend at all times. If so, upon leaving, the visitor has been unsuccessful and hence has nothing to fear (perhaps). It does feel too unprofessional, though. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 18:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the advice! Though I'm not really any closer to figuring it out.  I called my phone company and they told me that only one call was made during that time, the one that was left on my phone to a local number which I can't get anything on.  So that means one of the calls was to no one and was just button pressing.  Some have speculated that it was a mentally ill person, I would be inclined to agree except for the new tennis racket (probably too new, it didn't look used at all and was missing it's carrying case) and gym bag, these aren't the sort of things a crazy person carries around with them.  They really seemed like props for a scam and did have the desired effect.  She definitely didn't steal anything while she was here although I suppose that could have been her intention, but given the fact that I think it was planned, getting into an apartment like mine to pocket whatever is on the table doesn't seem like much of a scheme, I think the best you could hope for would be a pack of cigarettes.  I also talked to couple of neighbors this morning and none of them had seen her. Very strange that she would pick my second floor apartment, with the blinds drawn you can't tell if the lights are off or on, so it looks just like all the others. -- Daniel  20:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing, I don't know why I didn't mention this, but I was supposed to be out of town last night. My car actually broke down on the way to the airport and I missed my flight.  I guess it is possible that someone knew about this and sent this women to see if my apartment really was empty.  I might have mentioned the trip to a neighbor or two. -- Daniel  20:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Almost certainly an Undine, Borg designated Species 8472. See this precautionary tale μηδείς (talk) 20:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't surprise me if it was some sort of phishing attempt. We do a lot of things with smart phones and SMS now. (Did you check for text messages?) The fact that she needed to use the phone, stall for a bit, then use the phone again makes me wonder if she didn't do something that would result in something being sent back to your phone somehow. Like a SMS password recovery tool. APL (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Did you ask your neighbors if they'd heard of this? She may have literally been going from one apartment to the next. APL (talk) 21:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I did ask my neighbors and they didn't see or hear anything. I actually think I figured it out as best I can.  I told one of my neighbors that I was going out of town for the weekend on Thursday night.  Someone (possibly even my neighbor although he seems like a nice guy) knows that I do own a Canon 5D mark II because I sometimes come and go with it (I don't actually keep it at my house) and thinks that because I'm going to be out of town they might be able to get it.  On Thursday night I leave with my bags and my car.  My car breaks down so it doesn't come back to my spot, but I do.  This lady comes to check to see if my apartment can be broken into.  She knocks on the door thinking that probably no one is home, but I answer the door so she has to come up with something, hence the request for the phone.  Since I'm nice to her she figures she can come in and take a look around to see if there is anything else worth taking.  Since I confronted her I doubt she'll be back, but we'll see. -- Daniel  02:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I dunno, the whole thing seems kind of purposeful. They use your phone, pressing more buttons then expected, then they stall, then they use the phone again. If they were just casing the place trying to figure out where you keep your valuables, why risk arousing suspicion and go for the phone a second time? APL (talk) 06:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Is it possible she could have been locating the phone's ESN and then texting it to someone? That could be bad news. APL (talk) 06:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What can you do with someone's ESN or MEID?


 * Perhaps she redirected your phone to an expensive number, see Call forwarding, she could then call your phone (at cheap/free local rate) and you pay the expensive rate. Or maybe she is a stalker and using your phone because her phone# is caller-id blocked. 93.95.251.162 (talk) 15:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC) Martin.
 * Long time later, but that's actually a good point. As mentioned above, it doesn't make much sense for this to be a money making attempt, at least on a commercial scale. It could be someone bored trying to make money but probably not. However it's easy to imagine someone bored or whatever wanting free or close to free calls to a number doing this. Definitely in the predigital days, you can read (I just did) of people doing this sort of phreaking. Nil Einne (talk) 01:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Cafe design- teenagers' opinions
In a book I am trying to write, there is a little cafe just down the road from the school where children go to hang out sometimes. At least, they should, but it is not working out too well, and the place is due to close down in a couple of weeks. Now, though, a group of my charaters have gotten the idea that they can convince the owner that she needs to change the place a little, to make it more appealing to the people she had wanted to attract, since a posh little cafe does not seem to be doing the job. Their plan is to get others at their school invoved in coming up with ideas of what they would rather see. That's the idea, but i need two things to make this work:

1) How would people actually go about collecting the opinions of children at this school, what sorts of research strategies would actually work here, and efficiently enough that they get plenty of sensible ideas quite quickly?

2) What actually might these teenagers then suggest they would want to see? I did not get to spend much time 'hanging out with my mates' when I was at school, so my experience here is very limited, I have few idaes of my own, and I am wondering whether anyone else can thing of things, whether realistic and potentially viable or not.

148.197.81.179 (talk) 08:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * How old are the teenagers? I must say that a lot of teenagers wouldn't want to be bothered with systematically seekikng opinions from others in their school. They would just see their own preferences as natural and insist that they were put in place. For example, they might want a particular kind of music to be played, loudly enough to drive away customers who didn't share their taste. One scenario I can see, though, is that the young people are required, as part of a school project, to carry out a survey or investigation, they are at a loss to know what topic to investigate, and then this opportunity presents itself. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * To (1), most schools in the U.S. frown upon outsiders randomly coming in contact with students, for safety reasons. You won't be allowed on campus, and even just off-campus they will notice you and call the police. The only realistic way would be indirectly through parents. One method would be for the people to attend a PTA meeting. Explain to the parents how the renovated café would provide a safe after-school haven for their children, if it had the features their kids would enjoy. As for (2), do you know any teenagers in your neighborhood well enough to explain your project? Ask them. That will give you authenticity. — Michael J 10:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Of the people trying to organise this, three are 16 and one is 14, and I think at least one of them, perhaps two, would insist on their seeking at least some opinions from throughout the ages of children at their school. They would be the ones doing the research, at least as much as they can be bothered, rather than anyone from outside coming in. Also, the only teenagers I know at all are around 18 or 19 and seem only interested in two things, neither of which are appropriate in association with a school. Meanwhile, as it happens, I have already done getting them to organise a big school project in the previous book in the series, so I am not sure it would work again so soon. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 10:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems like there's a tension between realism and your desires as an author. "School Days" books have never been particularly great realist or socialist realist, and rather have tended to exist in a bourgeois-aristocratic social imaginary where life is easy, and the largest conflicts are manufactured social ones capable of ready resolution (or in the slightly more realistic novels, being fagged to death in the public school system by an apparently admirable older male).  If the conflict is over the survival of the cafe, and poshness versus accommodation to teenagers, this is the perfect time for a rich spinster/maiden aunt intervention at the last minute.  Sure it is deus ex machinae but school days novels are generally fairly pulpy, and as noted, don't pay heed to realism.  I'd say this is a perfect time to inspect classic era public school novels for plot help. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to say this is the perfect place for some sort of deus ex machina. The essence of story telling is drama, and a public opinion survey is not dramatic. You need some hint of danger or adventure here. Maybe a popular teacher gets beat up there by organized criminals, so students start going by in groups and business picks up. Maybe an unpopular business opens up near by, and the cafe starts selling protest-themed food, which also happens to be really good. Get some sort of moral conflict involved. You might also read The Art of Fiction: A Guide for Writers and Readers, a great read by one of last century's best selling authors.μηδείς (talk) 11:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you ever recommend anything not written by Ayn Rand? Warofdreams talk 12:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are tracking me that closely you know the answer already. But do let me know when I recommend a book not relevant to the OP's topic. μηδείς (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with them asking some of the other kids at the school - that seems perfectly realistic. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a good survey - they might just ask a few friends, who happen to give them a useful answer.  What would they like?  When I was a teenager, we wanted a bit of space to hang around without being bothered, and some cheap, trashy food and drink.  If the aim is just to make it more attractive to teenagers, probably selling more cheap fast food, sweet things and fizzy drinks would help.  For a slightly off-the-wall idea, what if the cafe got a pet?  Some kids love spending time around animals, and that seems the sort of thing which they might suggest. Warofdreams talk 12:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If this is taking place in the US, I'd be downright surprised to see any pets (other than fish) in a restaurant. I've yet to see an eatery that allows (non-service) dogs inside the establishment.  I take my dogs plenty of places but we always have to eat outside if they are with us.  Dismas |(talk) 16:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I have seen plenty of places with counters and maybe a few tables that have cats or dogs on the premises. Not upscale places (although you'll find people with dogs at outdoor cafés in NYC) but certainly cats are quite common uptown. μηδείς (talk) 21:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Some OR here: If your storyline has the café being successful, do not have adults involved in the design. In my town a few years ago, a group of well-meaning adults set up a center for kids to go after school, providing what they thought kids wanted or "ought to have." It was virtually empty every day. — Michael J 01:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Common problem, Michael. Most prisons are designed by people who have no experience of being inmates, and hope they never do.  Many kitchens are designed by people who never or rarely cook.  Catholic priests are not qualified to give their flock advice on marital issues, but that has never stopped them.  And on it goes.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:49, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

That could be quite useful, though, as a lesson on what not to do. What sorts of things were wrong with it? 148.197.81.179 (talk) 07:31, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

What car is this?
http://i54.tinypic.com/2u4sao8.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/snffgk.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/29foy1l.jpg

193.224.66.230 (talk) 08:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a Pontiac Firebird, I think the 1981 model. -- Ferkelparade &pi; 09:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Those photos look like movie clips. To verify the model year, you might want to check the Internet Movie Cars Database. — Michael J 10:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Egg grades
So I was in the supermarket the other day and bought some eggs. As always they were grade A + a size and for the first time it occurred to me: that's a grade; there must be other grades. I just looked at the wikipedia article and it says that there are grades AA, AAA and B. I have never seen any other grades. How can I get eggs that are much better than the ones in the supermarket? Where do they use Grade B? Is that what prisoners get? Are they only used in dog/cat food?--108.54.26.7 (talk) 13:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Per Egg (food), Grade B eggs "are usually used to make liquid, frozen, and dried egg products, as well as other egg-containing products."
 * If you want eggs that are better than the ones in the supermarket, you should get chatting to people who have a few hens, consider keeping hens yourself, or find a farm where they will show you where the hens are kept and where you are confident that the eggs are only a day or two old. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I wondered why our neighbours had chickens. Don't get hens though if you have any kind of birddog like I have. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 16 Tishrei 5772 19:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * See http://www.raisingchickensforeggs.com/.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Whatever happened to your adopted hedgehog, FP? μηδείς (talk) 00:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * He sold it and invested in a hedge fund. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Good one. μηδείς (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

WTF 3D!?
In 3D tv's,is it the screen that makes it 3D? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.48.207 (talk) 19:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the tv displays images that are superimposed (with one being slightly to the left or right) and then the 3D glasses put the two together in such a way that one pops out. Here's an article for you to read: 3D TV. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 16 Tishrei 5772 19:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * (e/c):Depends on the technology. The most common form uses higher refresh rates to show two separate images, one for each eye. The glasses worn by the viewer use special lenses, either LCD shutters or polarized lenses or something else, to make sure the eyes see the proper images, with the human brain putting the images together. The newer "glasses-free" technology seen in the Nintendo 3DS and some newer cell phones also displays two separate images, but the 3D effect appears when viewed at a proper distance from the device. Long story short, if you're using glasses, it's the glasses. If you're not, it's the screen. -- McDoob  AU  93  19:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well my dad say it's the program that is airing that is 3D.

Flags and the First Amendment
So I'm curious, is there a Supreme Court or lower federal court case dealing with the right to fly any flag that one desires in the United States? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 16 Tishrei 5772 19:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On a personal basis, I don't believe so. Concerning public buildings - The South Carolina Senate passed a law over the controversy of flying the Confederate flag over the South Carolina State House.


 * The United States Flag Code does has some rules such as never flying any other flag above the US flag, but, as the lede says, there is no punishment if one fails to comply. On a related note - It used to be illegal and punishable to desecrate the flag, but the Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. Johnson that such acts are protected speech under the First Amendment. Avic ennasis @ 20:37, 16 Tishrei 5772 / 20:37, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On a side note to your related note, I used to work for McDonalds (UK) in the late 80's/early 90's. The franchise manual was a weighty tome and included instructions for flags, their usage and disposal (which had to be done with reverence). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.182.197 (talk) 23:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, so it's something that has never been challenged most likely. Ya, I know about that law. Well I guess if a bumpkin neighbour were to complain about my flying two Israeli flags (one on the sukkah and one on our flagpole proper), there's no case I can toss in their face; pity. I am thinking that it's covered under the First Amendment, but wanted to see if there was any actual case dealing with the flying of flags (reference question, not legal advice before anyone tosses that one up). Thanks.  Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 16 Tishrei 5772 20:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Although your Home Owners' association may have weird rules regarding public displays, if you belong to such an association. Those groups often seem to be above the law since they're theoretically 'optional' to join. APL (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Our what now? O_O Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 17 Tishrei 5772 02:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Homeowner association. If your house was built as part of an organized development, the builder may have placed a restrictive covenant on the deed, meaning that when you bought the property, you agreed to be bound by the rules of a non-governmental organization which is authorized (by the deed restriction) to impose rules on what you can and can't do with the property. Common restrictions are limitations on what colors you can paint the house (e.g. no fluorescent pink), what external additions you can make (e.g. no clotheslines), and possibly what flags you can fly. The thought is that you agree to be bound by the homeowner association in exchange for living in a neighborhood where your neighbors are prevented from turning their house into a "gaudy eyesore". -- 174.24.217.108 (talk) 17:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, like a suburban co-operative. xD Doubtful, I don't believe that is how this town rolls and people build hideous McMansions all the time here anyway. As far as I know, there is no such association here, they might be more common in other parts of the country I guess. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 17 Tishrei 5772 17:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The general principle is that the message may not be regulated, but the means can. You can't blast loudspeakers at night claiming that the message you are broadcasting is protected. How exactly that works out depends. I am sure we have an article on those "god hates fags" (I can't bring myself to call them people.) But there should be relevant law regarding them. μηδείς (talk) 21:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That is a case where what you are doing is a breach of the peace and is very much frowned upon wherever, It also just douchebag behaviour in general. :p

The operational word, APL, is voluntary. The problem is that some committee usually decides what rules are to be applied in an ex-post-facto manner. The law should no more accept that you have voluntarily signed away all control over your property than it should honor a contract in which you voluntarily enslaved yourself. μηδείς (talk) 02:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Typically, American communities have city ordinances (i.e. laws) about what you can or can't display on your property, as well as rules about keeping your house and yard in at least a minimal, liveable condition, and of keeping the noise level reasonable. Those kinds of laws are not usually considered to be constitutional violations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, good point Bugs, though I can't seem to find a list of Town of Greenwich Ordinances at this moment, which is a shame because I wanted to know what the proper length of a resident's pauper-whacking stick was supposed to be. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 17 Tishrei 5772 16:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know about Greenwich specifically, but in general the concept is called zoning laws. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

In Australia it's fairly common when international sports events are on to see the flags of foreign countries flown at homes and on cars, etc. Australia plays New Zealand in a 2011 Rugby World Cup semi-final tonight. We've let a lot of Kiwis into our country and they somehow think they have a right to fly their flag. Similar things happen with soccer internationals, particularly with some European countries. HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Kiwis thrashed us, so they have a right to fly their flag here. We certainly would be if the boot was on the other foot, so to speak.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but not many Australians have emigrated to NZ to be in a position to have swapped such boots, should we ever beat them at rugby. HiLo48 (talk) 10:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

So, that aside, I don't have the resources right now to cite out a good answer full of Supreme Court precedence, but generally speaking, any government entity cannot stop content neutral, non-violent displays of the type you describe without passing a rigorous constitutional review. This is not saying you can fly any flag you want at any time, but it is saying that the government has a high burden to demonstrate that a particular message meets some very extreme conditions.... it cannot simply be offensive. Such is the marketplace of free ideas, as repugnant as some may be. Shadowjams (talk) 11:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm really dismayed at the state of these answers. As the OP asked the question it seems like a textbook First Amendment question. He's asking about the U.S.... we don't really need 20 explanations of opinions and other uneducated guesses from a dozen other countries, particularly when the question centers on a distinct issue.
 * It's a shame that Americans can't be interested in how their country compares with others. HiLo48 (talk) 19:42, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a shame that reference deskers can't answer the question they're asked, and instead like to veer into vaguely related discussions that quickly bear little relevance to the OPs question... or maybe it's because I'm American that this bothers me. Shadowjams (talk) 21:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * US cities and towns have standards such as zoning laws for the benefit of the community, and since they are passed by local governments, they are assumed to have the consent of the community. A typical example would be that electioneering signs have to be taken down within some specified time after a given election (by contrast, you can generally keep a candidate's bumper sticker on your car for as long as you own the car). Typically, the rules are less strict in the rural areas, i.e. "out in the county". Consideration has to be given for the situation. If a group of Nazis holds a peaceful march in Skokie, that's one thing. But if they move next door to a Jew and plant a Nazi flag in the front lawn of their own property, they probably can't get away with it. Note that the article on zoning acknowledges that some folks do indeed consider zoning laws to be an infringement on property rights. Courts would have to weigh the rights of individuals in a community vs. the rights of the other individuals in the community. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of property rights... it's a First Amendment (more technically a 14th amendment issue in most State based cases), and while local governments may well have governing authority, they are restrained by superseding authority such as the Constitution. Shadowjams (talk) 19:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005 prohibits real estate management organizations from restricting homeowners from displaying the Flag of the United States on their own property. It does not cover any other flag. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Stromberg v. California... I should have just posted this in the first place. Shadowjams (talk) 21:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, now there is an interesting case, and I guess that if it ever needed to be cited it could be (it's not exactly this, but it's the same principle.) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 21 Tishrei 5772 01:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

personal question for you
what do wikipedians get when answering questions here in ref desk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.129 (talk) 23:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The satisfaction of making the world a better informed place. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

this is a serious question and i hope everyone will share an asnwer. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have provided referenced answers to thousands of questions, and have basically gotten jack shit by way of thanks or reward. Edison (talk) 00:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I like your answers. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:26, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I read it as a serious question and gave a serious answer. Did you think it wasn't? HiLo48 (talk) 00:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

oh no im sorry, i added that part before reading your answer. it actually is the kind of answer i was looking for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Answering a question is also a way of testing your knowledge. Quest09 (talk) 01:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Or showing the world how little knowledge you have, whichever the case may be. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:26, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In no particular order, answering questions on the Ref Desk for me is: 1. a way to kill time, 2. a way to learn new things when other people answer interesting questions, 3. an excuse to research things that I might not have looked into, 4. an opportunity to share what I know with others, when I happen to know something about specific questions, 5. more fun than editing warring over article content, 6. an insidious habit that I can't quite kick, 7. an opportunity to think through things that I otherwise don't think much about on a daily basis, and 8. something that, ultimately, I enjoy doing for the fun of it, and the moment it seriously stops being fun for prolonged periods of time, I will stop. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I like your answers, they are very near my own. Now I dont have to type them out, lol. And to everyone who has ever answered anything here, thanks for your time.  He  iro 01:31, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Sharing. :-) hydnjo (talk) 02:33, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My answer would be more or less the same as Mr.98's. One of my favorite question and answers I've seen was someone posting from a car (a passenger I think), asking for directions to someplace near London. And someone replied with a good answer within minutes. The OP said thanks and all was good. Pfly (talk) 02:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Deep down we are all commies, happily working for free. Actually, we have an article on this, motivations of Wikipedia contributors, though it's for all wikipedia, not just the desk. Two reasons for editing which are not discussed in the article is that some like to edit their ideologies into wikipedia, such as several pro-Israeli groups including Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, though most are lone wolves. Another reason is that many editors have personality disorders, mainly cluster B and editing wikipedia gets them the attention they desire. Ditto to 98, but also I particularly enjoy answering questions correctly when others are giving wrong answers. Public awareness (talk) 03:04, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Public awareness has now been blocked indefinitely as a sock of the banned editor User:Passionless.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Intrinsic rewards. (review) http://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(10)00517-X Dualus (talk) 08:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I like to give attention to those who worry deeply about minutiae, to those who struggle to make themselves comprehensible, and to cranks, out of a sense of solidarity. Other things I enjoy about answering questions include:
 * Opportunities to make puns.
 * Opportunities to say "epistemology".
 * Opportunities to use bullet points. Card Zero  (talk) 11:43, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say I answer questions here (when I can) to share any knowledge I may have and (when I can't) to offer semi-serious comments or puns. I have this innate, almost instinctive thing that I try to help others if I can. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It gives me an excuse to spend time looking up obscure facts at Google Newspaper archive and Google books, or in the stacks of a reference library, with some audience conceivably reading and appreciating the answers I found. Sometimes it is along the lines of "How did they do X in the year Y?" and I provide refs about how a Tinderbox was used, or about electricity in the 18th century, or radio in the 1880's, or "When was the first time someone did Z?" and I track something like usage of the phrase "The United States is.." replacing "the United States are.." Edison (talk) 05:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I too concur with each of Mr.98's answers, to which I would only add: 9. a way of keeping my research, writing and editing skills ticking over (as I was once a professional non-fiction desk editor, and hope to be able to deploy some or all of those skills professionally again in the future). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.123 (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Occasionally they may get a barnstar or File:Refdesk barnstar candidate1.png. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I hope that some satisfied questioners may make a donation to the fundraising effort. --Dweller (talk) 12:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)